Breaking news: Israeli commandos attack Gaza relief fleet

Ooooh shit is right!

Oh shit

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...697642,00.html

So 'they encountered resistance' and the next step was to drop everyone that moves?

Who creates IDF's rules of engagement? Kenny Powers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

This is the footage mentioned in the OP (I think) of the attack on the ship before any Commando had begun boarding.


Now the Israeli government is saying that they've found weapons onboard or something on a ship from the fleet with people such as Swedish crime author Henning Mankell, a French Nobel Peace Prize winner, a Holocaust survivor, a former US Congresswoman (Cynthia McKinney).

Israel says: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10196628.stm

And now Israel is claiming that the civillians attacked the commandos, took their guns away and started shooting them. So they're either trigger happy violators of international law or the Keystone cops.

Jesus Christ. What a fucking despicable act. How do you spin this, I wonder? Disgusting, and tragically unsurprising.

Oh it will be spun. Just wait and see. It will be spun into the finest silk in all the world.

Obama better let Netanyahu have it over this. Exactly the kind of crap that makes our unwavering support of Israel look worse and worse.

Well Israel bombed a UN post in Lebanon with laser guided missles after the UN expressly asked them to make sure not to bomb the post. In the last Gazza offensive, they bombed many many ambulances. Again they bombed a UN shelter full of women and children. And they rammed a boat full of activists and jounalists, Israel responded by saying it was all one big mistake. Israel just keeps killing and stealing, decade after decade.

Obama isn't going to do anything, he has already restricted sales of nuclear components to Israel, but he needs to go a step further like Bush Senior. He was the only president to ever take a hardline stance against Israel, and he was genuinely going to try and fix the middle east.

Israels policy of targeting women children, journalists, and activists is very very well documented. They have an active policy of first going after women and children. I dunno, its strange one of my best buddies may be going to Israel to study "security studies". He doesn't have anything else to do, and his mother keeps pressuring him to go to Israel and marry a nice jewish girl, but we keep telling him not to do it.

Also this

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...896796,00.html

Israeli media saying the commandos were equipped with 'paintball guns', who the fuck do they think they're kidding?

A ship they say was carrying weapons to Hamas, and they board with... paintball guns.

And to think, people scoffed when I called Israel unhinged in the last thread about one of their violent attacks. When is enough enough? When do we sever ties with them? Is the fear they'll nuke their neighbors without our moderating influence? I wonder...

Well I have quite a bit to say about this but i'll try and keep it short.
The flotilla was a provocation, at best, not a humanitarian act (the fact that Hamas recruited such high caliber personalities to board those boats only speaks ill of said personalities). The Gaza strip is blockaded as a means of defence; Israel is suffering daily rocket attacks from Hamas terrorists in the Gaza strip; the naval blockade is but one brick in that wall of defense, designed to stop the flow of (Iranian and Syrian) rockets and munitions into Gaza (the other two bricks being the IDF sitting on the perimiter of the Gaza strip and the Egyptian army - these guys are very trigger-happy - sitting on what's designated "philadelphy line" - basically the Gaza-Egypt border. Hamas terrorists uses tunnels to smuggle said rockets and munitions; the Egyptians periodically flood/gas/blow up the tunnels. Not from the goodness of their hearts but because tunnels work both ways).

Now to the boats:
Why did the so-called "humanitarian" mission blatantly refuse to inquire on the medical condition of IDF POW Gilad Shalit?
Why would a humanitarian flotilla refuse safe passage to Ashdod port (10 km from Gaza), to unload supplies from the flotilla and transport to the Gaza strip, courtesy of the Israely govt? (Israeli government first response to the "aid flotilla")? why did they respond to this proposition with profanity and violence? These are not humanitarians. The people on those boats were, at best, misguided, and at worst, terrorists and provocators. The flotilla's goal was not to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza but to establish a new arming route to Hamas. These boats probably didn't carry munitions - these were the clean boats. The next boats will carry rockets - bigger ones than those that fit in the tunnels below philadelphy line.

About the Navy commandos - they were armed with non-fatal, crowd dispersing equipment - paintball guns, and pistols for a last resort. Orders were to non-violently take over the boats, thus the relatively (for this unit) non-lethal setup. The Navy thought they would be dealing with peace activists; but they were meant with extreme violence - about ten soldiers were stabbed, shot and nearly lynched. The commandos were ordered to only fire when fired upon; they did. Surprised they were the better shooetrs?

More stuff you probably don't know:
Guess who supplies Gaza with electricity, water (Israel has no water) and gas? yep, Israel. Ask yourself this - does it make any sense that a population which possesses the resources to manufacture and fire rockets suffer from a shortage of food?

This was longer than I thought it would be. I got a little worked up. It's one thing to try and live your life defending yourself from recurring murder attempts, it's another thing to have everyone else condemn you for it.

Meh. This won't change a goddamn thing, as Washington will still unilaterally support Israel in whatever misadventures they come up with.

International waters dude,

and why exactly would the Israeli navy equip paintball guns and not rubber bullets or stun guns? How is a paintball gun remotely a practical idea? Especially if Hamas shenanigans were suspected.

Re: Dan Cohen

The American media is going, in shorthand, with "botched raid," which is going to color a lot of reactions no matter what the facts are. I think there is a lot more anti-Israeli sentiment in the United States than a lot of Israelis know. In the racist fringe, the thought that "if it wasn't for Israel, there wouldn't have been a 9/11" has gained a lot of currency.

It's an impossible issue to armchair from the U.S., but the American government's special relationship to Israel can mean that our media goes further to try and "balance" the issue by being particularly hard on Israel.

Which is ironic given how their less than stellar reporting on American gunbarrel misadventures in recent years.

It's a dicey issue around my house as a lot of my wife's family is in Israel and we have a lot of ties to the Israeli community here in Los Angeles. I find myself being incredibly critical of the Israeli government and think, "oh, well - my government does the same." But, the truth is, it's apples and oranges. Your analogy about "recurring murder attempts" is apt. A friend had begun posting on her Facebook page daily updates of how many rockets were blasted into Israel every day to try and get other people to realize what goes unreported here. But, it found few converts.

Talking about Israel is the star wars conversation for political geeks, a descending vortex of ad hominem attacks, bullheadedness, and useless fury, so I tend to not want to talk about it, but jesus, Dan Cohen.

As far as the Gaza blockade goes, it's an actual blockade. As in not getting concrete in to fix the buildings Israel knocked down, as in preventing vital supplies from getting in, as in stopping ordinary Gazans from living anything close to what we would consider a normal life. Yes, you have dumb fucks ruining it the rest of the Palestinians and aiming to hurt ordinary innocent Israelis, but to not acknowledge the pain and suffering occurring for the other half affected strikes me as fundamentally uncaring and cold.

As far as not docking in Israel, that was the whole blasted point. Whether you might agree with the people claiming it's impossible to ship medical goods and the like through the Israelis, you have to admit that considering their stance, going through Israel doesn't really make too much sense.

But here's the most important point (Dr. Syn already pointed this out). You have dead protesters. In international waters. There's no way around that.

My guess is that the paintball guns were opted because at such a short range rubber bullets are lehtal (not sure about whether the navy commandos have stun guns). weird as it may sound, paintball guns are the closest thing to non-lethal weaponry the navy commandos have (they use it for training on close-quarters combat wargames). Again orders were to non-violently take over the boats and steer them to Ashdod port, not shoot to kill.

The buildings that were knocked down had rockets fired from/around them. The "dumb fucks" you're referring to are Hamas terrorists (saying that they "aim to hurt" Israelis is a gross understatement - their stated goal is to kill us all to the last), elected to power by the rest of the Palestinians. So you can't disconnect the Palestinian population's responsibility for their own situation.

Wait wait wait... Did someone in this thread suggest that the American media is biased against *Israel*? Do we all live in the bizarro universe now??

Oh, and Mr Cohen...

At this point all I know is this: I will vote for *anyone* who promises to work towards eliminating support for your state. If Israel cares about my vote and my country's friendship, they should change their actions.. Everyone I know is getting more than fed up with you guys, and I live in the heart of liberal America. I am not sure who your other friends are besides us, so think about what I've had to say, please. Thats all(on my cell so typing is tough!)

PS: The racists (the good ol' boy kind, not the nazi kind) LOVE Israel. It's existance makes way for the Rapture, so they believe. Religious nuts embracing other religious nuts for the most cynical of reasons.

PS Mr Cohen,

Any reaction to the constant allegations of nazism and antisemitism leveled at my country's President by members of your government? For but one example, do you agree with your president's brother that Barack Obama is an antisemite jew hater?

So how many dead Israelis are worth your vote? Israeli security policies, while certainly hurtful to the Palestinian population, prevent terrorist attacks and save Israeli lives. While the international (and Israeli) media has been highly successful at cloaking the very real threat we're under does not make it go away. You and your friends say "Israel is hurting the Palestinians and must stop", I say "Israel is defending it's citizens as it should and must continue."

I say the kill ratio is still around 4 Palestinians for each Israeli dead since 2000. And of the isreali killed a LOT bigger percentage were soldiers than it was terrorists/freedom fighters on the Palestinian side.

The blockade is such a human rights violation and I hope it will lead to sanctions against Israel at some point.

"I've become what I beheld..."

"What is hateful to thyself do not do to another. That is the whole law, the rest is commentary." Jewish Proverb.

Exactly. No matter how hard anyone tries to spin this, it is a matter of absolute fact that Israeli Special Forces attacked civillian ships, in international waters and to stop sugarcoating it, executed foreign nationals in order to send a message. And it was an execution. I will not believe that members of the supposedly best special forces in the world were in such grave, life threatening danger that they had to kill so may people in order to take over an unarmed convoy. Considering that in Somali waters a couple of weeks ago Russian special forces retook a captured ship from heavily armed pirates without anyone dying. And before them Dutch special forces did the same thing. And French and Greek etc.

This is unacceptable behavior from a western democratic state. Whether it is covert or overt. But to revel in it? To say 'I gotta do what I gotta do' is unacceptable. We're supposed to be better than this. And screw anyone who doesn't think so.

Have fun voting for crazy nutbag right-wing psychos Kate, because all mainstream politicians will vow to work with Israel. I don't think there are a lot of militias in New England so you'll probably have to venture south to find your new political savior.

I'm holding you to this now.

From what details are being gathered right now, the Israeli navy seriously underestimated the level of aggression on the sixth vessel - the command ship "Marmara". 5 of the 6 boats were boarded and taken over without incident. The commandos who boarded the "Marmara" were assaulted by club and knife-wielding crew/"humanitarians"/terrorist supporters. At one point shots were fired at the commandos, at this point it's not known whether from firearm already on the ship or by pistols snatched from the commandos by aforementioned "human rights activists" (said sidearms were the only firearm the commandos boarded the boats with; part of the minimal-aggression, non-violent attempt at taking over the ships). At this point the soldiers returned fire, as per their designated "only fire when fired upon" orders. No executions, Stelios. Believe whatever you want to believe. The Naval Commandos are an elite unit; trust me, this mission did not require their level of skill and training, but it did require their level of restraint and control.
Don't get me wrong - no one over here- on the streets and from what I gather from the Israeli media is all too pleased on how this turned out. And I guess that once all the details are out on what went on on that ship we'll all be able to make up our full opinions on it based on the real facts (if we are all lucky enough to assemble a true picture of the events).
But this much is cut-clear:
There was no need for a humanitarian relief flotilla to the Gaza strip. A humanitarian aid mechanism exists: it is coordinated by UN agencies and monitored by the IDF; as previous experience shows such mechanisms are prone for misuse by terrorists.
The flotilla's only goal was to create a new supply line of rockets and munitions to Hamas in Gaza. And since Hamas has repeatedly declared its goal to eliminate all Israeli life and establish a "Wakf" (=holy government) in Israel's stead, it is an act of self-defense to stop it.


I keep reading and hearing these comments - on this board and others and on the international (and Israeli) media saying that this is an extremely aggressive move on Israel's part. But in my opinion this is matter of position; if it was any of your lives on the line, you would expect a western democracy to do anything in its power to preserve the lives of its citizens.

It's mindblowing that people defend Israel when it's obviously a thug state. It's disgusting.

Even now, reading the horrific reports, I'm conflicted because my entire life I've been a proponent of Israel. It's in my blood. Regardless of how awful the accounts, how high the death toll, I would recall how my Grandma used to describe Israel to me: a nation for the Jews. A place that will always be hated and attacked. Someone will always be trying to take away Israel from the Jewish people. That's the way I was raised. As I got older, I had my own opinions on the matter but my support for Israel was always there. Always.

You can't keep supporting a country you love when it does things like this. It's like turning a blind eye to a murdering family member. If Israel really wants peace (and the leaders of BOTH Israel and the Palestinian people do little to promote peace) then this can't happen. People gave Obama a hard time for being more firm with Israel but you can see WHY he's doing it. If we always do what we've always done we'll always be where we've always been. Things have to change.

Do I still love the people of Israel? Of course and it'll always have a special place in my heart but this is no way to run a country. The end result of actions like this is obvious: more war and death.

Still, I get instinctively defensive when people like Princess Kate vow to only vote for people who will repeal support of Israel.

This is exactly what's wrong with Israel today. This attitude leads to complete thuggery. Every nasty action is justified because the Israeli mindset is that the Arabs are going to overrun and destroy them.

It's mindblowing that people confuse the aggressor with the defender in this story.

The aid workers commandeered an Israeli vessel? They boarded Israeli boats in international waters?

I agree with you. It's a deeply emotional, personal issue for many Jews. I would just like to add that my (now passed) grandmother would NEVER support what happened today. So there's that.

Have horrible things happened to the people of Israel? Yes. Do they deserve a land of their own? Yes. Will this do anything but lead to more destruction and anti-Jewish sentiment? No.

They say an abused child will end up being an abusive parent. That doesn't excuse their actions.

I can't say that I have absolutely no reservations on actions that our government takes to prevent terrorist attacks and defend our lives. It deeply saddens me that Israel and its security agencies frequently have to carry out controversial, aggressive and violent actions so Israeli lives are kept safe.
But the fact of the matter is - I simply do not want to die.

I understand that this is very hard to see from places abroad - places where the feeling of personal security is not challenged every day. Somewhere I'm glad not everyone in the world has to live like we do.

Dude, get over yourself. I worked two blocks from the World Trade Center. I know people who died that day. I lived in terror for a year after that event, waiting for the next shoe to drop.

Your wish to not die does not give you the right to oppress, abuse or kill other people. Your life is not any more valuable than theirs.

So you value an Israeli life more than a Palestinian one, that much is clear. How many dead enemies of Israel do you think should die for every dead Israeli? Two? Four? Ten? And I hear those dirty Arabs can keep a vendetta for generations. It's only logical that for every enemy of Israel you kill that you should also kill his family so they won't try to take revenge.

And what about those antisemites in the West? They're only making it easier for the terrorists to kill more Israelis, with their support. Maybe Israel should start taking out some of those. Show them you won't go without a fight this time. Nothing too massive. An assassination here, a bomb there. If they still won't take the message maybe it will be time to show them what it feels like to be under constant fear of death. Blow a couple of buses. They will sure start listening once their families start dying.

After all they are trying to drive you out of your god given ancestral homes. You're only fighting back against impossible odds, you have to creative. It doesn't mean you're bad people.

You are a deluded child. I mean that seriously. Apologies to the rest of you for stooping to this level but in all honestly, how are you supposed reason with twisted stupidity like this? What Israel did today is repellent, Dan. Repellent. Watching the news reports over here I see interviews with decent Israelis, see the disgust etched in their faces, people who cannot believe what has happened and who are morally and intellectually literate enough to feel the fucking shame you should be feeling. And you actually fucking defend what happened today. You mindless fool.

Although I don't see how anyone in their right mind can justify what Israel has done, I found this while looking into the whole international waters argument:

Obviously Israel will argue the "reasonable grounds" until the cows come home.

This, with a few modifications towards how I came to believe it, is exactly how I feel right now.

Then again...

Reading more and more about this, it seems that at least from a legal standpoint a lot of what Israel did was indeed justified. I don't think many of us are as much concerned about the legality of this, however.

Drabon:

Lol!

1) the christian right wing is israel's staunchest supporter
2) of course I won't vote for a crazy right winger. That was my whole point. Sometime soon there are going to be mainstream canidates who speak out, and I'll support them. I live in western Massachusetts, land of liberals, and I don't know anyone who takes Mr Cohen's attitude about murdering civilians in international waters.

We saw this in South African during Apartheid -- the brutality and hatred of the government and it's security forces had a similar corrosive effect on the people they were protecting.

Here's a question that always is in the back of my mind during these things: why is the land itself so important to these people? I've been reading through some reflections on what today and the conflict as a whole means to American Jewry and again and again phrases like "religious base" come up when discussing the nation of Israel. Why this confuses me follows.

Christianity is, at its heart, basically a pacifistic branch of late Second Temple period Judaism. The way I understand the ecclesiastical history of the Jewish religion is that post-exile/Deuteronimistic Judaism is where the religion shifts from a nation-based, sectarian religion to a universalized religion with a strong emphasis on social justice, i.e. the then-destroyed Temple isn't the literal seat of God on Earth but that God and his kingdom transcend the world and are omnipresent. This is where the "my kingdom is not of this world" talk in Christ's teachings come from.

When you get to post-Second Temple Judaism, my understanding is that the actual nation-based aspect of the religion gets even more irrelevant. The rabbinical tradition is basically a continuation of the sage tradition, meaning they're lay leaders. Not only is it legal to observe Passover in private--in the Temple periods of the religion, non-communal observance of the holiday was illegal--but that is now the norm and not the exception. Hell, the rabbinical tradition was even started by the guy who kept telling people that it doesn't matter who rules Jerusalem so long as God rules their hearts and escaped the razing of the city and the Zealots by pretending to be dead.

My question is, given all that, how in the fuck does the nationalist aspect of Zionism become intertwined with modern Judaism?

Gotta love that Dan Cohen dude. He exactly has this shameful attitude that will eventually get Tel-Aviv nuked, no matter how tragic this will be.

No matter how much you'll try to spin it, it's just another blunder added to Israel's scoreboard. Maybe it had a good reason to do a preemptive strike, but it's completely lost in this debacle. Keep on being the small bullying state, guys. You're just collecting enemies and losing support every time you do something retarded like that.

And Cohen, try to give a good rational reason for the aggressive colonization of recognized Palestinian land.

So basically the purpose of the assault was to intimidate and, dare I say it, Terrorize a group of Hamas and Celebrity sympathizers? Who thought this was an intelligent or effective thing to do?

If these boats were going to be used to smuggle arms, but this particular flotilla was "clean", why not wait for the next flotilla with actual weapons which could be captured and shown to the world?

This is so indicative of the current Israeli attitude: "We are isolated, the whole world is against us, so fuck them! We'll do what we do". It's a self-destructive course of action. Israel needs to be constantly in dialogue with the rest of the world. If they don't, they will in fact be "pushed into the sea" as the Arabs promised in 1948.

Thing is, they feel like they'll be pushed into the sea if they don't play the tough guy. They figure it's better to be the insane guy everyone's afraid of than the neighbor everyone thinks they can walk all over.