Breaking news: Israeli commandos attack Gaza relief fleet - Page 8

Crooks and Liars' take on the Thomas issue.

I do have to say, worse has been said that has cost people less.

This is true, and it's unfortunate. And she made an apology, and that should be the end of the issue.

But the comments from supposedly enlightened liberals after that article illustrate exactly why many American Jews on the left (even entirely secular folks with a Jewish background like me) are very, very uncomfortable with comments like Thomas'. There's a palpable hatred that seems to go well beyond "we're critical of the Israeli government" and into "we hate the Israeli people."

Her comments had nothing to do with war crimes being perpetrated, Kate. Listen, I like Thomas but what she said was stupid, short-sighted and hateful. She deserves punishment. If Glenn Beck or anyone on Fox News said what she said, we'd be screaming for their departure. So her retirement makes sense.

Glenn Beck and his kind say far worse every day. And while their departures are screamed for, what happens?

Pat Buchanan must be laughing himself hoarse over this.

That's the point of the Crooks and Liars link I posted. Rush and Beck have said some pretty stupid shit, but they go on the air and apologize and talk about free speech and all is forgiven. But Thomas apologizes and it isn't enough? Too bad she doesn't pull in ratings and sponsors.

As I said, the double standard in the US when it comes to "free speech" is very amusing to me.

Yeah, I see what you mean, but I am not too sure about this being ultimately an issue of "free speech".

Without knowing too much about Helen Thomas I am more often than not under the impression that it boils down to a question of basic human decency and self awareness in the public field at the end of the day. While the media nowadays can brew a shitstorm out of any (percieved) controversial statement, there is a astonishing gap between the reactions of the percieved culprits. While people like Beck revel in their pits of hatred and intolerance they actually seek solace out of the fact that they are the real victims and are speaking out hard truths against th cartel of pc. When the mindset is trapped in such a bubble it is hard to actual be self aware.

Thomas on the other hand seems to be well aware of the nature of her statement. And, even more important for me, seems to be able to reflect on that statement and issue an honest apology. And I can find a lot of grace and respect in the fact that she did draw the consequences instead of clinging to her position and retreating into the bubble of victimization. I applaud that.

Sufficient to say that this post is in no way meant to shine a light on the hypocricy and the larger role of the media. But I do think that these mindsets do say a lot already. But unfortunately grace and self awareness are damaged goods in the public arena in this day and age.

"Persecution for the expression of opinions seems to me perfectly logical. If you have no doubt of your premises or your power and want a certain result with all your heart you naturally express your wishes in law and sweep away all opposition...But when men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas...that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out. That at any rate is the theory of our Constitution." - Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

Sorry it took me awhile to respond (my computer passed on).

We should continually call for Beck and Limbaugh and Savage's resignation whenever they say something horrible and racist (i.e. mostly once a day) -- though we know nothing will come of it. What I was saying is that we have to hold that standard to both conservative and liberal members of the media. Thomas did the right thing by resigning -- it proves that she has more integrity and brains than both Beck and Limbaugh combined -- and many on the left did the right thing by holding her accountable for what she said. We should still call out the thugs on the right even though we know they'll never step down and will ignore cries for their dismissal.

I feel bad that Thomas is gone but at least she had the intelligence to realize she should step down. Also, I don't think her ego is inflated by the controversy, unlike Beck and his ilk.

They should go somewhere else. As in, any other place on the globe. Plenty of nice spots to chose from where their existence is not denying others the right to life, liberty and property/pursuit of happiness. Quite simply, I don't think they have the right to be there if they're going to act this way. I'd be ok with them staying if they said "Ok, look, it was a mistake coming here and kicking you guys out of your houses. Here's what we're going to do by way of reparations. Here is what we're doing to ensure your equal rights under the law. Here's our official apology for the war crimes and assassinations. From this point forward things will be different". That's not their plan though, and I don't see how their current strategy can work. They're outnumbered 10 - 1 and Arabs tend to hold grudges.... for a long time.

I'm not sure if you'd call it war crime, a crime against humanity, or what. But it's not ok to steal peoples homes and land and then abuse them. It's morally wrong if nothing else.

Reader letter to Talkingpointsmemo.com:

double post

I can't believe you're serious. "Go someplace else" is something you hear from KKK members, Kate.

And I assume you're already packing your bags to make way overseas, right? Since we, you know, stole this land from the Native Americans and denied them their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Gotta hold ourselves to the same standards, right?

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day*. I have nothing against their religion or race, just their nation. That doesn't make me a racist. Sorry. I have Jewish relatives, jewish best friends, and very close friends of the family who live in Israel

I already addressed this in the thread. I've stated that I'd be in favor if extensive reparations and the creation of a separate indian only body of congress that would give them an equal voice in our government. The indian situation though is not analogous because of the fact there are not enough indians left to repopulate this continent should we leave. Also, my family has been here for nearly 500 years (on my mom's side). 60 years ago is not ancient history, and it's not too late for Israel to admit that it's existence is a mistake

*I'm also in favor of english as the national language. I think it's important for every American, regardless of their walk of life, to be able to walk up to another and hold a conversation. When you have people who can't speak with each other you can end up with ghettoized neighborhoods ETC. I am not a racist, and I think my belief in a national language is very reasonable, but sadly alot of the people who agree with me do so for less than honorable reasons.

PS Most of the people in the KKK love Israel. It's existence means that the rapture is coming, and the jesus lovers are all for that.

EDIT: I also said I'd be ok with Israel if they were to stop doing what they are doing.

I just love that she pulled out the "I have (Insert minority) friends, so I'm not racist at all!"

Yeah, seriously. Don't let retardo retard this thread. Being against Gazan blockade and what happened with the aid flotilla does not equal wanting Israel off the map.

Stupid situation. The network embraces the moronic TWITTER format and then complains when one of their anchors does not give appropriate context when posting a 140 character "tweet". :: polar bear facepalm::

Plus, when you hear her reasons for praising the guy, they seem totally sensible. This is why the idea that there is an anti-israeli bias in the media is totally laughable. Ms Nasr gets the boot for a tweet praising a guy who wants to stop honor killings, just because that guy is part of the legitimate government in Gaza

EDIT: Great op ed on the matter

UN declares that an American Citizen was "summarily executed" by a foreign state.


Yet it's not on the news. Why? I want my government to be as outraged as I am

For those who are interested - a pretty accurate assessment of the current political situation in the West Bank and Gaza.

The US-led negotiations have no chance of success and Israel will continue its perpetual programme of settlement expansion into the West Bank. Hamas' position will undoubtedly strengthen. They may step-up the level of violence in protest over being frozen out of the peace talks. Which, undoubtedly, will be used as political capital by the ultra-right wing Netanyahu government and a reason to execute bloody reprisals.

Given that this strategy of promoting a political instrument to the nominal role of "Voice of the Palestinian People" (formerly Arafat, now Abbas) whilst marginalising the democratically elected government (Hamas) has been employed repeatedly for years without the faintest shred of success it is hard not to conclude that the US is utterly opposed to a solution to the Palestinian issue.

There's a lot of talk about the power of the "Zionist Lobby" and its influence in Washington but I'm not convinced. I mean, sure, it's there and it does have connections. But there are plenty of equally powerful lobby groups - some more so - representing all manner of interests. Without Israel the US would be hindered militarily (especially as a base for operations in the Middle East) and there would be a significant drop in arms sales. But it could get by. However, without the US Israel would be practically bankrupt. It does possess profitable hi-tech and armaments industries. But there's certainly not enough capital to sustain current standards of living.

The US is weaker economically these days, but it still gets pretty much what it wants politically. Recall that the East Timorese genocide at the hands of Indonesia and even South African apartheid both came to a grinding halt soon after the US withdrew support. Given Israel's near total economic reliance on US aid I'm certain that if Obama suddenly decided to break with established doctrine and pull the plug the Palestinian problem would be solved.

The thing that saddens me most is that for decades the American people have been in favour of a peace settlement. Which is the reason they must be duped with this phoney "Peace Talk" façade.