Breaking news: Israeli commandos attack Gaza relief fleet - Page 2

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-th.../116743-2.html

So uh... Turkey could be sending supply vessels to Gaza, with Turkish Navy escort.

That's not good.

Sure, but they can do both...you know, "good cop, Nic Cage Cop". Most competent governments have a designated "Nic Cage" guy: Richard Nixon to Henry Kissinger's "good cop" for example.

Going back to my first post, why not wait until they can grab some Hamas weapons and make a huge stink about it? It would educate the rest of the world on the situation they face. This was just brutal and stupid

Wait, wait, you think Kissinger is in the "good cop" role in that relationship?

H.O.L.O.C.A.U.S.T.

The drive for a Jewish "homeland" in that region antedates the Holocaust, though. FDR's cabinet had several people in it that were calling for the creation of such a state prior to the beginning of WWII.

Kissinger would go an tell the Press and the North Vietnamese that Nixon wanted to Nuke North Vietnam while he (Kissinger) needed concessions so Nixon wouldn't go off. That classifies him as "Nic Cage Cop" in my book

There is twenty seconds of video that showed "peace activists" beating Israeli commandos with clubs. End of story. I think the IDF is slipping when there are 26 people recovering from injuries.

In radical Islam's 'Jihad' (from arabic="holy war") on Israel there have been many inventive weapons; knives, small arms, molotov cocktails, murders-by-suicide, rockets and mortars, but the most effective one is without a doubt PUBLIC OPINION.
So effective is this 'Da'wa' (="propaganda") and 'Thaki'a' (="deception") that the international media has almost uniformly accepted the Palestinians' narrative of the conflict; that Israel is violent and oppressive, and that murderous terrorists seeking to kill every Jew they can get their hands on are merely "freedom fighters". Media reports are unbalanced and one-sided. For one to form a real picture of the events one must read between the lines.

So effective this strategy is that clever, intelligent people think that a nuclear attack on Israel (a real and very imminent threat; Israel is the only country in the world threatened by a nuclear strike by another UN country - no one seems to care) will in actuality serve a good purpose, and, while "tragic", teach Israel a lesson (in manners, I presume? in playing nice?); others on this board claim we have no business in this part of the world, and that if our presence here induces such homicidal rage in our neighbors, we should simply leave to another place, where hopefully we won't make so much noise and be accepted, tolerated and loved.

The spin in this current story is that the flotilla was on a humanitarian mission. That's the deception. I won't recycle my previous posts, but in reality Israel faced a lose-lose situation; the options being losing small or losing big. Stop the boats - you're painted as an oppressor and murderer of "peaceful humanitarians". Let the boats through - you've created a new weapons supply line for Hamas in Gaza.

I'm not saying any of you should automatically agree with everything I have to say; I'm not saying that anyone, including me, shouldn't feel anything but sorrow about what's happened on that boat; if I can only ask that you don't automatically believe everything the media reports (lying isn't the same as merely showing one part of a truth, but it's close. and effective) - take it with a grain of salt. Read between the lines. Don't be prejudiced or hold a final opinion.

Just out of morbid curiosity, is any "final opinion" that is critical of Israel an example of what you think of as "prejudiced"?

Also, you're aware that your understanding of the Arabic terms you are throwing around is, roughly, horrible, right?

Dude, it's like a dozen protestors got killed at a WTO meeting at Seattle. By a parachuting-in band of Paraguayans.

OK, maybe my second sentence is a bit hyperbolic.

Opinions that are critical of Israel, which are not based on all of the facts are probably fueled by something else. Ignoring facts and holding double standards is in my view the very application of prejudice. And trust me, the international media does not give you all of the facts.

My understanding of the mentioned arabic terms is indeed an apt description within the context of radical Islamic terrorism. These terms, like most religious text can be interpreted in different ways and hold different meanings; the radical, Jihadistic Islam (the one that seeks to annihilate Israel as a stepping stone to establishing a worldwide Islamic government) is obviously not the whole of Islam.

Think of the Holocaust as the ultimate culmination of 2000 years of hatred in the diaspora. Not separate, but percieved as the peak....completely building on, but also symbolizing everything that came before. Basically cementing that yearning/need for a Jewish homeland forever.

There's a reason the State of Israel was described as a "Phoenix from the ashes". That's basically the psychological state of worldwide Jewry in the wake of the Holocaust. And it always will be for however long a "Jewish identity" exists on Earth.

Everyone outside of Israel rely on the international media, but rely does not mean to be solely dependent upon it and not accept all reports as the whole of the truth. In the forming of one's opinion, one can be curious and inquisitive beyond what is spoon-fed to him by the media - international OR Israeli.

And regarding the internal condemnation; my impression is a little bit of both, mixed with a bit of desperation and exhaustion. The Israeli columnist quoted in that article you linked - Gideon Levy - is a person who has repeatedly stated that Israel does not have a right to exist a Jewish state - so there are people like him as well (in the media).

This guy can't be real.

Unarmed dead protesters, you sociopath. Your argument is essentially "anyone who doesn't do thing exactly Israel's way as it pertains to Gaza is a fucking terrorist". Excuse us for not wanting to trust aid to the people who are responsible for the aid being needed in the first place!

America, can you just give these guys Texas as a take-it-or-leave-it offer? It'd solve a lot of problems.

Has anyone read jan guillou's "Madame Terror"? Today I wish that story would materialize into reality.

These look like "unarmed protesters" to you?

http://www.hosem.org.il/Sl/Human-Rig...k-like-savages
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB70Rtz8nek
watch 0:37, that's the part where they snatch the soldier's pistol and throw him overboard.

The boat in question where the violence took place is the "Maramara", a Turkish vessel chartered by the IHH - wealthy NGO/terrorist organization that aside from its charities is also affiliated with Al-Qaeda (if you're curious, go to this link http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal.../hamas_105.htm, scroll down the page and click annotation 5 to read a research paper regarding the two-faced nature of such radical NGOs).
So my argument is basically "a terrorist that attacks soldiers enforcing an international naval blockade with clubs, knives and firearms is a terrorist."

And in case you missed it, the people of Gaza elected Hamas as their rulers in 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...ctions_of_2006). Hamas' stated goal as its political platform is the destruction of Israel. So you can't remove all responsibility from the population in Gaza to their own situation - they did choose terrorists to be their leaders.

Compared to the armed and armoured Israeli commandos, whose reputation for thuggery precedes them, those guys are positively Luddites. That they responded aggressively to unprovoked aggression is just what you advocate for the Israeli populace, right?

After being oppressed and beaten and brutalised by the Israeli government they turned to those who shout very loudly about destroying Israel. SHOCKING.

Fuck it, I give up. Did you miss the Jewish proverb quoted above?

Andrew, the Israeli commandos were indeed armored but armed with only pistols, ordered to only fire when fired upon. And they did. Again - the violence only took place on the one vessel - the smaller sister ships were taken over without incident. This boat had terrorists on it.

And unfortunately Hamas does not only shout about destroying Israel. They put real effort behind their words. If you're unaware of that, there's really no discussion.

There's no discussion because you see the killing of innocent and unarmed people as necessary for the protection of the most heavily-armed and well-trained military state in the region. And if you claim one more FUCKING time that the people of Gaza have it coming to them because they voted in a party which - gasp! - promised to protect them, I will harness the power of the future to reach through the internet and bitchslap you myself.

I'm guessing you were all for the Iraqi war, right?

edit: Nevermind for the time being, I see some confusion in reports.

Not letting the facts confuse you? Those who clashed with the soldiers on the "Marmara" are not innocent, and they were not unarmed.
Sadly we are not the most heavily-armed country in the region - if we were so deterrent as you say there would be no repeated threats of destruction from our ultra violent neighbors.
And I never said the people of Gaza have it coming to them - I only said it is a distortion of the truth to hold them completely irresponsible to the stranglehold that Hamas has over the Gaza strip.

And I assume you're talking about the second American invasion of Iraq (since I spent the first one as a wee child in an airtight room with my family, all of us wearing gas masks and peeing our pants) - I was barely in high school back then, and I remember just hoping it would end quickly; the threat was that Saddam Hussein would launch chemical warheads at Israel to force US forces to pull out.

Israel had the boat, and the "terrorists". Why not show us the proof rather than blurry thirty-second clips of guys with billyclubs versus guys with guns?

Do you not accept that, at this stage, there is no moral gap between Israel and Palestine? That this has all devolved into tit-for-tat?

And, ignoring everything else, what fucking right does Israel have to engage and kill ANYONE sailing in a boat that's TWENTY MILES outside of their formal blockade?

Threads that cover Israel are sadly very much predictable. As always we devolved into an all out general debate about Israel, terrorism and the near east in general which only leads to the same black vs. white shouting matches. in. every. single. thread.

So how about scaling back the scope of the argument for once and focus again on the issue at hand?

From the info that emerged so far can conclude several things that are close to constituting facts (if something like facts is even possible).
We have an ongoing (sea) blockade of Gaza by Egypt and Israel. Ignoring the finer points of international law, the geneva convention, the law of the high seas and these issues which are very interesting but only tend to muddle the point of this exercise.
We have a long beforehand propagated "humitarian" fleet focussed on delivering to Gaza directly. Which is the whole point. Obviously this was planned and done in full knowledge of Israels relentless dedication to not falter on that issue even the slightest, the world watching not regarding.
Now one of the main points is he - so far - undisputed fact that the fleet was well and sound in international waters.
The IDF did plan this commando obviously long beforehand. It is not for nothing that they hit at around 4 in the morning. From a military standpoint this is the best time to overthrow resistance. And, even more important in my eyes, it is the best way to assure that this commando can operate under the radar of the media and even most cameras, etc. are rendered useless in a pitch black night on the high seas.
So the big question for me is the fact that apparently they did not even try to stop the fleet beforehand, thereby rendering their goal unreachable. But that would have led to a stand off for days or weeks on the high seas that surely would not have played out well in the international media. I guess cold facts where disired to create.
And even if one wants to argue that IDF had the authority to raid these vessels the operation as such is qestionable, to put it in the lightest terms. If you attack a vessel on the high seas, at night, without prior provocation one can make a sound argument that violence that stemmed from the people on the vessel where conducted in self defense. And even if we put this valid argument aside, the fact remains that the alledgedly best elite force in the world did seize a fleet with overwhelming force and killed ten people in the process. I don´t know what constitutes excessive force if not this operation.

Just looking at this narrow picture I honestly can´t find any argument that can put this operation into a brighter light. And therein lies the bigger problem for the overall debate over Israel and such. But looking at despicable and shortsighted emotional responses like PK does make me not want to particpate in this assasine debates which I consider an issue for a thread of its own alltogether.

This is a very important point. It is such a stupid, vicious circle of violence with no end in sight. Long have I asked myself: Why is it that we and the other side are not able to agree to only stop killing each other, sit down and talk about the issues? I mean, worst conflicts have been resolved before. So I'm starting to think that maybe, while our violence is a means towards self-defense, the Palestinians' violence might be the goal itself in their point of view. Never in the long history of negotiations has the other side agreed to stop the violence, no matter what offer was on the table. This makes me extremely pessimistic regarding any future solution to the conflict; because its becoming apparent that perhaps to the other side the conflict itself is the solution.

Rain dog - I used to think that Israel's evacuation of Gaza back in 2005 was the best move we've made in YEARS - one that will truly prove to the Palestinians and the world that we do not value territory over lives, that we are willing to make real sacrifices towards real peace with our neighbors. Now I see it as a horrible mistake; that we are perceived by our very worst of enemies as weak. And this emboldens them.

And Jan - you won't find anything to put this operation to a brighter light; as I've stated before once the fleet disembarked this was clearly a lose-lose situation on Israel's side. What you can do is consider viewing things in a wider picture.

What's all this crazy talk about smuggling WMD's and supplying terrorists? Show me the proof! They were supposed to bring help to innocent civilians of Gaza.

For fuck's sake.

Edited for bolding.

I really, really take issue with the moral equivalence being drawn between the Israelis and Palestinians. Any discussion about the moral aspect of this conflict that doesn't include the phrase "disproportionate response" enough times to make your eyes bleed is really, really missing the point.

Dan Cohen: You seem to demand of everyone on this board to look at this case without prejudice and to form a well informed opinion. And that's fine, I'm all for that. But the problem is that you come across as extremely prejudiced against the Palestinian people. That's just extremely hypocritical.

Easy for the Israelis to say, "Can't we all just get along?" They weren't the ones who were kicked out of their homes sixty years ago because some old book said a different group of people were supposed to live there.

I suggest you freshen up on your history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._for_Palestine
followed by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Ar...%93Israeli_War

Thank you. I thought I joined these boards to discuss movies, never did I think I would have to defend my right to breathe.

That's a tad much, isn't it?

I'm almost positive this guy is a fake. In one of his first posts here, he misspells 'Israeli.' His spelling was 'Israely.' There are a ton of things you can misspell when you're a shit speller, but your nationality usually isn't one of them. Just look at the Teabagger signs. Tons of things are misspelled. You know what's never spelled incorrectly? 'America.'

Seriously Dick if you think Israel has no legitimacy existing as a country just say it outright.

Oh. Look! An actual tiny agreement. That is what scholars could call a starting point in a debate. But I disgress. Because judging bythe second sentence you haven´t actually read my post.

And now he's seizing on Dickson's one statement to start painting everyoth an issue over Israel's behaviour as hating the country wholesale.

Yeah, methinks there is a chain-puller in our midst.

Well Cuch, you caught me. My facade shattered, my secret identity exposed before the might of your superior skills as a linguistic detective. Or is it? I might be an Israeli PRETENDING to be a teabagger pretending to be an Israely. You will never know.

Just waiting for the "anti-semite" card to be played...

Hey, Dan, wanna have a crack at this?

Dick? Oh, I get it! You humorously shortened my last name due to its containing a common slang term for the male sex organ! I see I'll have to be on my A-game from here on out!

And I'm not saying Israel has no legitimacy existing as a country. I'm saying that, seeing as how they owe their very existence to the benevolence of others, maybe they should think about playing a little nicer. And be a little more cognizant of what their existence means for those who were there before they existed.

Same here. He's holding it. Because every criticisms of Israel makes you a Jew hater...

And Cohen, while you're really defending aggressive action, would you mind responding to my earlier question? Why are you guys aggressively colonizing recognized Palestinian territories, and defending it as normal?

Drop the charade, Dick. Not only don't you thing Israel is legitimate, but you also want to kill as many Israelis as possible, Dick. You racist, antisemitic fiend.

Hey, I'm not an anti-semite, I own Munich on DVD.

Me neither, I love Woody Allen.

Well, not his new stuff. Oh shit, I tipped my hand.