THE DEVIN'S ADVOCATE: WHY IS SPIDER-MAN WHITE? - Page 7

You specifically point out why their complaint is invalid ie) the video shows them specifically defacing that statue of Dolly Parton and move on. You leave the race shit at the door.

He was a Chinese Triad assassin/negotiator. Oddly enough, a role that is tied into race since the Triads are predominantly Chinese organized crime organizations, and his character was sent over to oversee the operation. Although, there are news stories of non-Chinese members or at least recruits in the UK.

Ok, well what about the firestorm around the X-Men costume changes? Equally to the wings issue, and the Glover postulation it is an aesthetic change only, but fanboy went crazy over that.

Which speaks to my point that the change is what fans clamor about, not the race.

You care so much, that you are ignorant on the subject, and unwilling to do any research on the topic. Wow, I'm very impressed by your commitment.

No. You say "it's not about race, because..." THEN you move on if you so please.

It either is or isn't about race. And as a white/black/red/yellow/purple/orange/brown person, you can state that, WHATEVER your status in the minority/majority chain.

Could you either ignore me or reply with words? This is another of those meme only responses that sail completely over my head

You're allowed to say I suspect that he was treated differently than a white suspect would've been. You can give examples of a white people being sentenced to less time, smaller fines etc.

A white person can say that Vick broke the law and went to jail, that's fine. The racism in his case comes from the differences between his penalties and those of similar cases involving white people.

It's perfectly fine to question the case regardless of who got in. And yes, the white person can question why the white kid got chosen but they probably shouldn't ever say "No racism was involved" if they don't know for damn sure that none was.

But he hasn't even been mentioned by the producers, he hasn't auditioned, HE HASN'T BEEN CAST.

He's just saying he'd like to play Spider-Man and people are getting unbelievably angry over it. THAT's the problem.

Being prejudiced only while driving.

Then I take it porn racism is akin to John Mayer's claims about the predilections of his penis?

Why is Spider-Man straight?



There would be even more of an outcry if Marc Webb changed Mary Jane Watson to Gary James Watson.

I completely agree that comic fans on the internet are generally an easily provoked and obnoxiously loud bunch of people that are wholly incapable of accepting changes from source material. However, do you really not think racism plays any part in the relative magnitude of the negative response here?

Frankly at this point, Wally, I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing for (and no I don't think you're a closet racist, at least no more than any of the rest of us).

And another thought provoking discussion of racism brought to you by The Internet™!

Porn racism = exoticizing/eroticizing people of color, probably. "THE ATTACK OF BLACK COCKZILLA" and all the interracial fetish shit, por ejemplo.

I know, I just wanted to make a reference to John Mayer's racist dick

It is ok to say racism is involved if you don't know for dame sure it was, but you can't say there wasn't because you don't know for dame sure it wasn't?

I also would point out that the people on the "it's not racism" side do have examples, many many examples, of past fan boy out cries to change... there is a history of fan boys getting angry and riled up for changes in almost every single comic film ever made. Why is this different now? Why is that behavior all of a sudden racist, when it is very similar to how they react to costumes, story changes or recasting?

BECAUSE OF THE SCALE/NATURE OF THE REACTION IN RELATION TO THAT OF THE NEWS

It's already been said several times.

This I don't get. Really? Would the issue not be exactly the same if he was actually being considered?

Would anyone really feel differently about any aspect of this other than the sense of "urgency" or whatever?

Re: John Mayer

Are people saying that it's some form of racism if you're not attracted to certain ethnicities?

If he was actually being considered it would probably be even worse

I don't know that I agree with that. I think the distinction between this and an actual casting rumor is pretty thin. There was a bunch of talk when Thomas Jane posted a picture of himself as Jonah Hex about how perfect he would be for the role, people were getting excited for the movie before it was even casting based on the Jane picture, and then legitimate disappointment when he didn't get the role. Jane was in fact never truly in the running, and he just did had the make up done himself and took pictures. The point is, once it hits the internet and picked up by a bunch of websites it is a good as a real casting rumor. It spreads like wildfire amongst fan boys as "Hey did you here Donald Glover wants to be Spider-Man" and then predictably the fan boy community reacted.

Does anyone here actually think that the studio would ever cast Glover?

I mean, like Dan said there is very little real possibility that this will happen and there's been zero talk among the actual people responsible for making the film so the immediate and massive backlash against the idea is what I find suspect. It's like a watching fanboys blow up over some fan photoshopped images. Donald Glover is not getting cast as Spider-Man. People getting so upset in such a short amount of time at the very idea of it is what bothers me more than anything.

I am simply of the opinion that the fanboy community is not some giant racist hivemind that Devin suggested. The reaction has much more to do with the change of ethnicity, then the fact that fan boys think white is superior. Racism is the belief that one race is superior to another, and just don't see that in here.

As these things are likely to do it turned into something far bigger and less mature.

The fact that people object so vehemently even though he's very probably not even being considered, clearly makes it different from people going crazy because of the X-Men costumes that were actually being used in the film.

The reaction is so disproportionate, that it seems a bit naive to just write it off as run-of-the-mill 'oh no! organic webshooters!' nerdrage.


(eta: Or what other people say. Oh and I see the 'that's not the definition of racism' defense popping up again!(

Well yeah, I can see that. The outrage is ridiculous any way you slice it, but doubly so seeing as how it's barely a real possibility.

I see what you're saying but I disagree in that I don't think it's only the typical knee-jerk negative reaction to any change in a beloved fictional character. The complaints I've seen that have bothered me the most are the ones with barely-concealed resentment at the idea that Glover playing Spider-Man would somehow fundamentally change the character.

Not that its my job to speak for Ryan S here, but I think it should be clarified what he means when he says white people "can't" say this or that. It's not like he's advocating fining or locking up people who overstep their vocal bounds (at least I'd hope not). It's more "can't" in the sense of "without coming across as an entitled, presumptuous douche."

Fair enough, as I said way back in the very first post I wrote in this thread, this is all based on opinion, the conclusions that some make based on their opinions are valid to those people, i just didn't agree with them. I came to different conclusion and that is ultimately the only thing people are debating here, opinions.

I will say one more time how awesome Donald Glover would be in the role of Spider-Man. Totally the right mix of smart ass body type.

No, I get that.

I'm just saying there are instances when you can do just that. It's not an absolute.

After trying to catch up with what I missed this afternoon all I think I have figured out is that John Mayer is portraying Peter Parker in the SpiderMan XXX parody.

And, Princess Wiki....

And I remember seeing that idea being an argument against Duncan playing Kingpin -- that we didn't need a black actor playing yet another gangster.

Your definition of ninja ("any asian that fights with martial arts") was very stupid. That's what that gif meant. Glad I could help.

Ryan S... I disagree with you.

(Ironic post)

*ding, ding, ding*

Nothing's an absolute but for the most part it comes off as stated above.

I get that but after literally over two hundred years of oppression in a country I only think it's fair that the oppressed gets to define what is oppressive and what isn't.

What was the fan reaction when King Pin was cast for the Daredevil film?

I don't think it's so much racist as it is anal-retentive fanboys/girls. Webshooters, X-men costumes, Tom Bombadil, Flames on optimus...there's no rational response other than "That's the way it was in the book/comic/cartoon! there can be no deviation!". It speaks to perpetual adolescence more than anything. And yes, it's terribly sad.

People have to work together on these issues. Everyone needs to be included in the discussion and allowed to try to present their side of the issues. The moment one side becomes afraid (or disallowed) to contribute to the dialog you're in trouble. I'm sorry, I disagree completely with everything you have been saying. Your heart is in the right place but it simply doesn't work that way.

Holy shit, I have to get back in the habit of visiting these forums on a daily basis. This thread delivers.

I can't wait for people to learn about Dani the Native American Valkyrie when Thor 2 gets cast.

Yeah, I know it was a few pages ago but... what the hell are you talking about? When did I imply that I believe only black guys have the ability to play those roles. What I was asking was to define those qualities that are essential to Blade or Spawn and find a non-black actor that fits them. Then we can deal with a specific case rather than a hypothetical. Because we're not looking at a "Black Man for Spiderman", we're looking at "Donald Glover for Spiderman".

My apologies if this was dealt with in the past two pages.

Of course everyone needs to be involved in overcoming racism but the discussion needs to be about how we can overcome it rather than pointing fingers and saying "That's not racist". Until we can get to that point white people cannot tell black people what isn't racist without seeming like whiny pouty bitches.

Me too. I love the costume.

Oh me too, that suit is iconic. Basterds better not change it...making it all black with a white spider or some shit.

i'm so glad i haven't touched this thread.

Oh, please do.

They loved it.

An argument should be decided on the merits of the logic contained in the stated premises. Devaluing an argument based on skin color is racist (well, it's only technically racist if it's toward an oppressed minority group, otherwise it's "prejudiced"). This includes white, brown, black, red, yellow, green, purple, and translucent skin pigments.

Devaluing a personal experience or anecdotal evidence based on skin color (as long as it is within the realm of racial relations) may be a non-fallacious argumentum ad hominem, since the racial background of the observer will color (cwutididthur?) their interpretation of their experiences.

If a clan member came up to me and told me every mexican he'd ever met was trash, it would be very easy to dismiss his opinion whole sale, because he's biased.

If a clan member came up to me and delivered a treatise on race using a logical argument and supporting evidence, I, as a rational person, would be obligated to examine the truth of his premises and the soundness of his logic.

I'm not a reasonable person though, so I'd just punch him in the face.

White men. Stop being sexist.

I kinda like this new guy.

You wouldn't believe how many people in the comments are just saying 'WHAT IF BLACK PANTHER WAS MADE WHITE?'

I'm pretty much deleting those comments out of hand when I come across them.

I really think it depends on the type of "opinion" you're talking about. If we're talking about general impressions, anecdotes, personal experiences, or anything else related to a claim of authority then yes I agree with you that a circumstantial ad hominem is relevant to the weight of the opinion.

If we're talking about a logical argument, then I don't think racial background is relevant to the argument, unless you're pegging all racists as stupid or unable to construct coherent logic. Which I think is a hasty generalization, but don't quote me.

Actually, if I interpret what you're saying as just that - racially bigoted people tend not to have good logical arguments for their beliefs - I think I could get behind that. It's just that their faulty logic can be easily attacked without resorting to the identification of their skin color. Maybe that isn't what you mean, though, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

EDIT: It just hit me that we might be discussing different things here, semantically. You're saying "opinions" which would be basically, what? A stance on what makes something racist or not? I guess I can see where you're coming from there. If the person has reasons based on logic for those opinions, wouldn't we still treat that logic the same as any other, even if the opinion was weighted? Or am I totally misunderstanding something here?