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THE DEVIN'S ADVOCATE: WHY IS SPIDER-MAN WHITE? - Page 9

post #401 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
What if I shot you in the face for your Droid, Jake? Would that make the thread meta enough to shut it down?
Sure, but you being black and doing that might throw the thread into a fucking panic as opposed to just going meta. I don't want to do that to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
I meant all that sincerely up above. No condescension intended, though looking back I guess I can see how it reads that way. Shouldn't have stressed "someone."
No real offense taken, just confusion! Cool.
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post #402 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:19pm
If you had to recommend just one of the aforementioned books, which one?
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post #403 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HANDSOME MARXIST-LENINIST View Post
Addendum: being "colorblind" (not that joeypants used that phrase, but I get the impression that that word/concept is on a lot peoples tongues here) in a racist society makes you an ally of racism.
How do you mean? Do you mean like, taking the idea of "colorblind" so far that in treating everyone "equally," you start to ignore the hardships someone realistically comes up against being black/asian/mexican/etc?
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post #404 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
It wasn't just that but you also sucked at defending yourself since your answer to everything was "ICONOGRAPHY!!!!"
The character's "established iconography" was my answer to precisely one question, Jake. As I recall, you're the one who latched on to that term and beat it relentlessly.

Since we're treading the same water here, I'll just cross-post my basic argument:

[Parker's whiteness is] no more integral to the character than the fact that he's male, or from New York, or straight. Any one of these things could be altered, and it wouldn't be anathema, but it also wouldn't be the Spider-Man that I grew up reading — and that's what I prefer to see. It's no more complex than that.

I also don't want to see a white Zatoichi, a fat Professor X, a towering Wolverine, or a hot, young Papa Smurf. As far as I can tell, this makes me not only racist, but weightist, heightist, and ageist as well. If that's the case, I'm okay with that.

I'm not angry or up in arms about a black (or Asian, or female, or centenarian) actor taking on the role. I just think it's a silly idea, because I happen to prefer classical interpretations of established characters. It's absurd that I should have to "defend" that preference, or trot out my progressive liberal credentials to shield myself from name-calling by people who don't know me from a hole in the wall.

Is some of the fanboy objection rooted in racism? Of course it is. We're nowhere near the "colorblind" society we'd like to be. But this self-righteous, condescending reaction to any objection only serves to demonstrate that ignorant, knee-jerk generalizations aren't limited to racists. It's a human trait.
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post #405 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HANDSOME MARXIST-LENINIST View Post
Addendum: being "colorblind" (not that joeypants used that phrase, but I get the impression that that word/concept is on a lot peoples tongues here) in a racist society makes you an ally of racism.
Fun fact: I have a form of color blindness, called shade blindness or shade different. About six percent of men have it. Oh, and I'm sorry for being a cog in the machine.
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post #406 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
If you had to recommend just one of the aforementioned books, which one?
Bonilla-Silva's Racism Without Racists is a good look at the whole "unintentional racism" thing. Omi & Winant's Racial Formation In The US is more of a breakdown of the existence of race as a social construct. I also have one on White Privilege but I'll be damned if I can't remember the author's name (I'll throw it up when I get home if someone doesn't beat me to it). Anyway, Bonilla-Silva's book is probably the most relevant and reader-friendly as far as this discussion goes, even though they're all intertwined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
How do you mean? Do you mean like, taking the idea of "colorblind" so far that in treating everyone "equally," you start to ignore the hardships someone realistically comes up against being black/asian/mexican/etc?
Pretty much. It's also immediately discounting what a racial experience means to a nonwhite person. By saying stuff like "I don't pay attention to skin color/race", you're automatically disqualifying what could be defined as "the black/Latino/Asian experience."
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post #407 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teitr Styrr View Post
Fun fact: I have a form of color blindness, called shade blindness or shade different. About six percent of men have it. Oh, and I'm sorry for being a cog in the machine.
Clearly you are the worst person ever and I'm sorry that your colorblindness cannot allow you to see how red my fucking face is right now you traitor to humanity and social justice
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post #408 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:35pm
So we've now reached the part of the thread where white people complain about the racism directed at them, right? Somebody save poor white guy joeypants from the horrors of racism directed at the white ruling class! Why is it okay to make fun of white people! UNITED NEGRO COLLEGE FUND IS RACIST!!!!!!
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post #409 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Pretty much. It's also immediately discounting what a racial experience means to a nonwhite person. By saying stuff like "I don't pay attention to skin color/race", you're automatically disqualifying what could be defined as "the black/Latino/Asian experience."
Yeah, see, THIS is something that I didn't want to give off with my comment about "treating everyone with equal respect."

I certainly don't attempt to ignore race in any way. I just don't treat anyone as "lesser" than me.
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post #410 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
So we've now reached the part of the thread where white people complain about the racism directed at them, right? Somebody save poor white guy joeypants from the horrors of racism directed at the white ruling class! Why is it okay to make fun of white people! UNITED NEGRO COLLEGE FUND IS RACIST!!!!!!
What? Where, exactly, did I complain about racism being directed at me?
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post #411 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:43pm
You guys have figured out that Hansdome Marxist-Leninist is Count Chocula, right?
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post #412 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:48pm
Had an idea, yeah.

PLEASE DON'T BAN HIM I WILL FEED HIM
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post #413 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Had an idea, yeah.
That particular brand of attitude (and I don't mean stance on racial issues) does feel familiar.
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post #414 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:53pm
Plus, you know, HANDSOME MARXIST-LENINIST. He's hiding in plain sight. He's clever that way.
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post #415 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
So we've now reached the part of the thread where white people complain about the racism directed at them, right? Somebody save poor white guy joeypants from the horrors of racism directed at the white ruling class! Why is it okay to make fun of white people! UNITED NEGRO COLLEGE FUND IS RACIST!!!!!!
Seriously though, I don't want this to get lost in the hubbub of hunting down an old poster.

If you're going to drag my name into an accusation, I'd at least like to know why, because I don't see it at all. Are you confusing me with someone else?
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post #416 of 444
6/3/10 at 5:59pm
Shame if that's the case; although his tone has been a bit abrasive and some of his language too grad school for this context, he's made some good points.
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post #417 of 444
6/3/10 at 6:03pm
Chocula often made good points. He's smart, he's just an asshole. And I suspect he has a small penis.
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post #418 of 444
6/3/10 at 6:07pm
I guess I forgot what he was actually like. Past trolls/assholes sometimes blur together in my mind. I might have had him on ignore at some point too.
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post #419 of 444
6/3/10 at 6:27pm
No more abrasive than anyone else in the thread, honestly.
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post #420 of 444
6/3/10 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
No more abrasive than anyone else in the thread, honestly.
Yeah, he's been fine in here so far. The tone and the name really perked up my... eyes (?) though.

I forget what Chocula ended up getting banned for originally.
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post #421 of 444
6/3/10 at 6:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
No more abrasive than anyone else in the thread, honestly.
True. Admittedly I was doing a little pre-emptive qualifying/defending of myself for sticking up for a potential returning banned user/troll. I think his contributions in this thread have been good.
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post #422 of 444
6/3/10 at 6:49pm
I thought the tone sounded familiar too, but I thought it just might be another slightly abrasive smart guy. I think ya'll might have scared him off now though.

Derail: Stupid Splice thread is moving a mile a minute. I just know they are talking about spoilers in it though. I soooo want to read it, but I really don't either. Can't see it until tomorrow.
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post #423 of 444
6/3/10 at 10:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
So we've now reached the part of the thread where white people complain about the racism directed at them, right? Somebody save poor white guy joeypants from the horrors of racism directed at the white ruling class! Why is it okay to make fun of white people! UNITED NEGRO COLLEGE FUND IS RACIST!!!!!!
You don't actually respect anyone who reads your stuff, do you? You have this strange superiority complex which is decidedly un-earned as well as a tendency to write insulting pieces then get all butt-hurt when you don't get intelligent discourse back.

You started this thread by calling a large portion of your readerbase racist and retarded and you are wondering why they are defending themselves. What did you expect?
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post #424 of 444
6/5/10 at 8:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
Comics are a very visual medium. I suspect a lot of people fall in love with what they see as much as what they read and that is why they get attached to things that really have no actual connection to character (ie: clothes, race, hair color... whatever).

I would like to think that people aren't really up in arms about the color of Peter Parker's skin as they are the inaccuracy of that visual. Change Spider-Man's colors to black and green and you'll get the same kind of backlash.

That said, I'm sure there are many folks out there that are simply racist and have some sad issues with "them" taking everything over, which is a shame.

Mr. Burgess certainly isn't happy about the idea that's for sure.
That Mr Burgess video was so funny it hurt. I'm still wiping away tears.
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post #425 of 444
6/6/10 at 2:41pm
I hate starting this shit up again but perhaps this might help some people:

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post #426 of 444
6/8/10 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalanoWally View Post
A valid point, but I think the Last Airbender is a better example of the counter side of the black spider-man debate.

In Avatar (The Cartoon) the characters have asian (and eskimo) appearances and cultures... however they are all fictionalized versions of these, and the character designs themselves are not overly ethnic. The film version casts many young white stars in these roles, but maintains the fictionalized world and cultures, and in several cases the white actors actually look and act very much like their cartoon counterpart (from what I see in the trailer anyway).

I do not see a difference in casting white actors in these roles because they are right for them, and casting a black actor for the role of Spiderman because he is right for it. It is effectively the same thing, yet in both scenarios it s opposite sides of the coin that get labeled racist, in The Last Airbender they are "whitewashing" the ethnicity whereas in Spiderman they would be advancing forward in a socially conscious manner. That is the double standard I see, and it is frustrating to me. That double standard exists all over our society right now, not just in films, and as long as that exists, racism in some form or fashion will continue to fester.
I consider myself "still catching up to enlightenment", but even I can see that the "hypocrisy" you're pointing at may be soreley imbalanced merely because of the sorely imbalanced representation and opportunity of minorites in lead Hollywood roles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Dellamorte View Post
Yeah, I don't think anyone got more than "that's stupid" about Jake Gyllenhaal's casting in POP. Compare that to the "BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY HE IS" responses to this. The very idea.
No one gave a shit about a video game adaptation. That's why. Compare that to Spidey's legacy. I objected to Jake in POP (firstly because he's no charismatic action star and secondly for race). But a black Spidey doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
I think the level of outrage over the Prince of Persia thing and this Spider-Man thing are directly related to how much people care about the characters and medium (50 years of comics vs. a couple video games) rather than the race flip flop.
Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
I don't think it is. I think AnaloWally is the living, breathing example of what's wrong with people today. He doesn't hate black people. He doesn't think they should be at different lunch counters or ride the back of the bus. He surely doesn't think that they should be slaves again. He's not a virulent hater.

But he thinks black people are fundamentally different from him. And he thinks that maybe they're a little uppity these days. There's nothing more dangerous than a white guy who thinks that racism sort of isn't a big deal anymore, and that these blacks are just causing trouble when they play THE RACE CARD.

See, racism has retreated to a very quiet, subversive place. Racism is all about code words and twisted logic now, not about outright, fightable hate. Any time someone claims that too much is being made of a racial issue, they're not just buying into that subversive racism, they're helping it along.

I agree that change is a big part of what frightens the borderline retarded fanboy community. But as I said in the Advocate, this isn't even change. It's a guy who just wants a shot at the role... maybe just in a tongue in cheek way. And people are shitting their pants. The overreaction is STUNNING. That's racism, not a fear of changing the specifics of a comic book character.
I'm suddenly reminded of THE DEVIN'S ADVOCATE: THE LAST ARCHIE BUNKER STORY
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeI View Post
MCD works as Kingpin because he's big without being fat, powerful, intimidating, looks good bald and can act. I can't think of a white actor who could have pulled it off as well.


With that said, MCD was just fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatoon View Post
Also, seriously, can we make the Hulk red? I know the green looks good with the purple pants, but his gimmick is that he gets angry. Red just seems like such a natural fit.
You're welcome.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
Plus, you know, HANDSOME MARXIST-LENINIST. He's hiding in plain sight. He's clever that way.
So that's why this thread was so damn confusing for awhile with all the quotes of deleted posts.

EDIT: Ridiculous theory time! Progressive Todd MacFarlane left Spider-Man because he wanted to make him black. Invented Al Simmons/Spawn instead.
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post #427 of 444
6/8/10 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
That Mr Burgess video was so funny it hurt. I'm still wiping away tears.
Holy shit, someone got VIDEO of that asshole?! Awesome. ETA: Just got home to check the "video." Dammit.

I remember reeling from the prank calls that prick got years ago. So, so funny while being utterly disturbing (especially the one where his daughter gets involved).
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post #428 of 444
6/8/10 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
"colorblind"



Thought this quote from this was interesting:

It's been a running gag among my friends that in comics, only white Americans ever find meteors, get splashed with chemicals or get visited by spacemen, everyone else (from Jack O'Lantern to Black Bison to the Gaucho to Apache Chief to Samurai and so on) has to have a power that relates to their race or their country -- specifically, the broad stereotypes drawn from white Americans' perception of their race or country. It's almost inescapable, and it reinforces the idea that non-white characters are defined solely by their ethnic differences.
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post #429 of 444
6/8/10 at 7:56pm
It's gotten a bit better, with the newest Blue Beetle being Hispanic compared to his white predecessors. And the fourth Atom is Chinese.
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post #430 of 444
6/8/10 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
And the fourth Atom is Chinese.
And then Deathstroke killed him and presented it to his nemesis in a matchbox.

Edit: Also amazed that the phrase "Rainbow coalition against whitey" hasnt popped up yet. Damn, Warren Ellis nailed tha sentence.
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post #431 of 444
6/8/10 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post
And then Deathstroke killed him and presented it to his nemesis in a matchbox.
Wait, what? Why?

C'mon!
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post #432 of 444
6/8/10 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
Wait, what? Why?

C'mon!
It doesnt make sense

During the Brightest Day event, the character is killed by Deathstroke and his new team of Titans. His corpse is then delivered in a matchbox to Dwarfstar, who is revealed to be the person who hired the Titans. His death has also been the topic of racial controversy since Ryan had been on of the few prolific Asian characters in the DC universe and his death had occurred during Asian Heritage Month in May
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post #433 of 444
6/9/10 at 2:18am
While mowing the lawn today, it hit me. If someone from Community was going to be Spider-Man; it should be the dude who plays Abed. First off, he is great playing a geek. Also he is great with off the cuff one liners. Spidey would finally have the humor that some say is lacking in the movies.
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post #434 of 444
7/21/10 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Do you even understand what I'm saying? A white person can point at something and say "I'm pretty sure that's racist" but they can't say that it's not. Why? To tell someone that they shouldn't feel aggravated because it's not "real" racism, when it comes from the mouth of someone who is in a position of power, is essentially saying "I know better than you!"
hahahaha!
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post #435 of 444
7/22/10 at 1:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCynic View Post
hahahaha!
You disagree?
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post #436 of 444
7/22/10 at 1:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
You disagree?
Hasn't it already been established that Cynic doesn't recognise or give weight to the notion of a 'position of privilege'? I always thought he was one of the students of the 'white americans can be victims of racism just as much as african americans' school of thought?
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post #437 of 444
7/22/10 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Hasn't it already been established that Cynic doesn't recognise or give weight to the notion of a 'position of privilege'? I always thought he was one of the students of the 'white americans can be victims of racism just as much as african americans' school of thought?
If so, he's an idiot.

White people can be victims of racism, of course, but it's not at the level of systemic racism that exists for other races. Racism directed at white people in the west is strictly an individual experience. One white guy being harassed by an asian/black/hispanic person or group is not nearly the same as a culture where race will prevent you from getting a job or from having your picture on the side of a school.
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post #438 of 444
7/22/10 at 12:50pm
RE: TheCynic
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post #439 of 444
7/22/10 at 1:48pm
Ryan that is a laughably absurd opinion... it'd be fine if it were simply liberal guilt, but it's not because you take it to the next level and are actually labeling people racists. It's a ridiculous double standard and, in a wonderfully ironic twist, a bit racist!

I'm not right leaning in the slightest, but I do pop in to the politics threads to suggest that people don't be complete hypocrites from time to time -- but normally I try to stay away because it becomes such an unabashed circle jerk that it's unbearable. And this is from someone that is "on your side", so I can only imagine what an actual conservative/republican would think.

I would never suggest that white people can be "victimized" as much as black people by racism. That doesn't mean double standards don't exist all over the place... and to point them out isn't "racist" and doesn't make someone prejudiced toward minorities, that's an idiotic point of view.
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post #440 of 444
7/26/10 at 4:57pm
Why is Aquaman white?



* Here's a pre-emptive "THAT'S RACIST" and "IT'S A TRAP!"
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post #441 of 444
7/26/10 at 4:59pm
Aquaman is white. Aqualad is black, apparently.
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post #442 of 444
7/26/10 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
Aquaman is white. Aqualad is black, apparently.
Not as black as BLACK MANTA.

No one stepped into my "because black people can't swim" trap. Congrats.
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post #443 of 444
7/26/10 at 5:28pm
I think it's debatable how well DC handled the revelation of Black Manta's race:

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post #444 of 444
7/26/10 at 9:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
Aquaman is white. Aqualad is black, apparently.
I always liked Black Vulcans name for him personally...


They said it was some sort of budget thing, but I think it's because I complained that they were always pairing me up with a white Super Friend, like I was gonna start super-looting the minute they weren't watching. And you think I named myself Black Vulcan? Hell, no! I used to go by Super Volt. Black Vulcan was Aquaman's idea. And I said, "Well, maybe we should just call you White Fish!"



But hey, the Super Friends could be multicultural.
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