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Face/Off (1997)

post #1 of 70
6/11/10 at 4:58pm
Thread Starter 
1997 is the year that Nicholas Cage becomes the slightly crazed purveyor of bug eyed intensity and phenomenal hair doos that we all know and love. Up until this point he's been either playing straight comedic roles (albeit with an edge) or typical drama roles. The closest he's got to the intensity and sheer madness we associate with Cage is in Wild at Heart. Face/Off and Con Air his chyrsallis, cinema will never be the same again.

John Travolta has already gone full on bugged out crazy for Woo in Broken Arrow, he can bring the craziness.

What's fascinating about this film is watching both actors try and do impressions of each other. Cage takes a twitchier, more complex, stab whilst Travolta goes big and broad. Both performances work but you get the feeling that Cage is probably trying harder than he should whilst Travolta just seems to be having a lot of fun.

This definitely feels like the most John Woo of the John Woo Hollywood films, MI2 arguably has more tropes of his but this feels purer. As such I've always viewd it in a harsher light than Broken Arrow or Hard Target (which are both a little less ostentatious). Whilst there's nothing here action wise to match The Killer ot Hard Boiled the opening shoot out in the airport is suitably fun and the assault on the apartment feels stylistically Woo without feeling like a copy and paste job.

I also love how completely of its own world the film is. There's a heightend sense of reality in the concept itself but stuff like the electro-magnetic prison actually makes the insanity of facial transplants feel 'right'. It's also probably Woo's most stylish film. Broken Arrow is very procedural, very militray, greys and browns whilst Hard Target is kind of gloomy and B-Actiony. This is a technicolour marvel of a film, golden guns, crimson suits, nightmare carousels, futuristic prisons, pimped out apartments, it feels like Woo at his visually inventive and it's a nice change of pace from the orangey drab looking action films of the late 90s.

It's also gloriously melodramatic, love the introduction of Travolta's daughter and Nic Cage going mental in the church, but it kind of works with the heightend aspects of the rest of the movie.

My one real problem is that Castor Troy is so much fun (as played by Cage and Travolta) that it's hard to root for Sean Archer. He's just such a dullard when played by Travolta.

Also BUNNY COLVIN! Love seeing the Wire alumni show up in stuff
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post #2 of 70
6/11/10 at 8:49pm
[QUOTE=Spike Marshall;2946050

My one real problem is that Castor Troy is so much fun (as played by Cage and Travolta) that it's hard to root for Sean Archer. He's just such a dullard when played by Travolta.

[/QUOTE]

This is exactly how I feel about how Travolta plays Archer (as Caster Troy as Archer). Over the top, but still doing the job. Come to think of it, Caster Troy was pretty likeable too. Especially the scene at the Troy compound. I was totally on the side of the "bad guys".
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post #3 of 70
6/11/10 at 8:51pm
Face Off is...Awesome. John Woo's Best US film. 2nd would be...Windtalkers, also starring that...CAGEy actor, Nic. MI:2 is 3rd, Hard Target 4th. There is no...5th.
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post #4 of 70
6/11/10 at 9:04pm
This movie rocked my world in 1997. Until that point, I was all Disney movies and Star Wars. Woo and Face/Off opened my eyes to international cinema and for that I'm very grateful. I was literally obsessed with this movie for over a year.

One moment I love that goes hand in hand with what Spike said about the film being in its own world...

Dietrich: Damn, my place is gettin' FUCKED UP!

Castor Troy (Travolta): (Cackling in TOTAL GLEE)

Now, there's no way that Troy would've heard Dietrich say that, but the way it's cut says otherwise and it works. Such a fun character. Cage kinda got the short end of the stick in this movie. He unleashes Troy in the first 20 minutes of the film with such gusto and then has to play a dullard for the rest of it. Travolta has to drench himself in brood for the first half hour but gets to be Troy for the rest of the film and enjoys every moment of it.

The film also had a great supporting cast.

Spike, you've read about how the movie's concept was originally futuristic (hence the prison and the face-swap) and was meant for Arnold and Sly? Also, are you gonna be doing this for the rest of Woo's Hollywood output? Or did you just happen to go for Woo's 2 Travolta movies?
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post #5 of 70
6/11/10 at 9:34pm
I love the scene where Eve drags Castor/Archer to visit Michael's grave. Travolta's got a nice little subtle moment there, reacting to the unintended consequences of the violence he's visited upon his sworn enemy. He's a complete sociopath for the rest of the film, but here he has to, for the sake of appearances, pretend for a moment that he has a soul.
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post #6 of 70
6/11/10 at 9:45pm
Award for best use of contrast between music and violent montage.
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post #7 of 70
6/11/10 at 9:50pm
Spike, I'm interested in how you came to the conclusion that MI2 had more Woo tropes than the 'more Woo-honest' Face/Off. Just curious. I've never bothered to mentally inventory the tropes in Woo's Hollywood work. I just assume the one that feels the most similar would be the one to have more or simply use them better.

One cinematic technique I miss in Woo's Hollywood work is his use of freeze-frames.
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post #8 of 70
6/11/10 at 9:58pm
Thread Starter 
I just think MI2 is consienously a Woo movie, it's pandering to certain cliches of his films which Hard Target and Broken Arrow never botherd with.

I actually didn't intend to go through the Woo/Travolta movies, my rental service just decided to send them out within a week of each other. I've got Windtalkers and MI2 on the Blu Ray list though, so I might end up reevalutating MI2.
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post #9 of 70
6/11/10 at 11:08pm
Ah, I see. Yeah, pandering is a good word to describe the Woo tropes in MI2. In hindsight, it's pretty blatant that Cruise brought in Woo as a gun-for-hire so he could have his own Matrix moments.

In the EPK special features on the DVD, Cruise would not stop repeating, "He's the man! He's the Woo!" Obnoxious.

But as I said in your thread about Red Cliff... Woo and his DPs do know how to shoot the shit out of his actors. Cruise does look great in MI2. I can't help loving the movie on some level, but it's pretty bad.
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post #10 of 70
6/11/10 at 11:17pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah, Cage looks amazing in his 'intro' scene at the airport. I'm tempted to see Paycheck just to see how bad it truly is, but I think it'd give me a brain aneyeurism if I attempted it.

I'm kind of biding my time until some of Woo's HK movies get the Blu treatment, 'cos I need me some Hard Boiled, The Killer and A Better Tomorrow in punishing hi-def.
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post #11 of 70
6/11/10 at 11:45pm


only scene i remember
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post #12 of 70
6/12/10 at 12:02am
The plot thickens.
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post #13 of 70
6/12/10 at 12:36am
I don't think you heard me, Janie...

Paycheck is horrible because it is utterly mediocre. It's an instance in which Woo lays his style low which only makes it stand out terribly when he does let loose a slow-mo CG bird. Hero/villain face-to-face moments feel forced and awkward. In this case, Woo got in the way of my enjoyment of a bad adaptation of a Philip K. Dick story instead of making it bearable.
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post #14 of 70
6/12/10 at 1:31am
Face off is a film I can watch again and again. It's one of the few great modern action movies, in fact I would go so far as to say it's the Commando of it's decade.

I'm probably going to cop some flack for this but I quite like Paycheck as well.
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post #15 of 70
6/12/10 at 1:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
In this case, Woo got in the way of my enjoyment of a bad adaptation of a Philip K. Dick story instead of making it bearable.
I didn't know there were any other kinds of adaptations of PKD stories. Don't say Blade Runner!
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post #16 of 70
6/12/10 at 1:59am
Blade Runner!
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post #17 of 70
6/12/10 at 3:01am
Face Off is John Woo's best American film hands down.

Much like this summer's A-Team Face Off was the fun summer film for 1997.

Watching these two actors inhabit each others mannerisms was fun and exciting to watch.

Travolta again catches the Woo manic magic perfectly and I would have loved to have seen Travolta and Chow Yun Fat do a Woo spectacle down the line.

I bought the bluray a while back on Amazon for 9.99$ and let me tell you what thats a loud soundtrack. Highly recommended.
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post #18 of 70
6/12/10 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
1997 is the year that Nicholas Cage becomes the slightly crazed purveyor of bug eyed intensity and phenomenal hair doos that we all know and love. Up until this point he's been either playing straight comedic roles (albeit with an edge) or typical drama roles. The closest he's got to the intensity and sheer madness we associate with Cage is in Wild at Heart. Face/Off and Con Air his chyrsallis, cinema will never be the same again.
I'd argue Kiss of Death gives you what you're describing two years earlier than Face/Off, but in the context of Vampire's Kiss the stuff youre celebrating is almost vanilla. It's when the generation before you gave up on Cage being interesting again. </old man derail>
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post #19 of 70
6/12/10 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
I was kind of taking the piss there. Should I have used a smiley face or something?
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post #20 of 70
6/12/10 at 11:09am
On the sentence where you didn't mention either of those movies? (shrug) I just thought maybe you hadn't seen em.
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post #21 of 70
6/12/10 at 12:50pm
I love this movie. It's batshit insane. I'd agree its the Commando of the 90's. I don't know anyone who doesn't love this film.
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post #22 of 70
6/12/10 at 12:56pm
I saw this on home video when it came out, and at that time it was the craziest film I'd yet seen. I felt revolted and fascinated all at the same time. In the years since I saw it, I became a huge CYF and HK film fan, and I think I can safely say that F/O is by far Woo's best American film. As Diva states; it's outlandish insanity is hard not to get behind.

PS Why is the title spelled FACE/OFF? I still don't get it.
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post #23 of 70
6/12/10 at 12:59pm
It stresses the double-meaning of the title.
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post #24 of 70
6/12/10 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
It stresses the double-meaning of the title.
Hm, fair enough.
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post #25 of 70
6/12/10 at 1:13pm
Thread Starter 
On a side note, I don't think I've ever seen Travolta look quite as 'big' as he looks in this film. He's rocking the extra pounds and double chin in this film but you don't really notice until he starts wearing three piece suits. The waistjacket is not a friend to the portly gentleman. He looks fine a few years later in stuff like Swordfish and Punisher.
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post #26 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:14pm
I like this movie because it's unafraid to be science-fictiony without calling attention to it. This is some weird world in which we can have magna-boot prisons and face-swapping surgery but it's not like 2040 with flying cars and bullshit.

FYI: this is a nitpicky comment and I know it but there is no H in Nicolas Cage dammit
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post #27 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Foster View Post
I like this movie because it's unafraid to be science-fictiony without calling attention to it. This is some weird world in which we can have magna-boot prisons and face-swapping surgery but it's not like 2040 with flying cars and bullshit.

FYI: this is a nitpicky comment and I know it but there is no H in Nicolas Cage dammit
From what I understand, the film was supposed to be set in the future but the budget did not allow for it. So the setting was changed to the present day but they still kept the faceswapping ETC

PS Have you seen any photos of an actual face transplant? Let's just say that I don't think Cage would be able to fool Travolta's family
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post #28 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
From what I understand, the film was supposed to be set in the future but the budget did not allow for it. So the setting was changed to the present day but they still kept the faceswapping ETC
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
Spike, you've read about how the movie's concept was originally futuristic (hence the prison and the face-swap) and was meant for Arnold and Sly? Also, are you gonna be doing this for the rest of Woo's Hollywood output? Or did you just happen to go for Woo's 2 Travolta movies?
Seriously, are people just not reading threads anymore.
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post #29 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:36pm
I'm calling it, the medical clinic and prison were owned by Stark Industries.
I love how the movie throws us into the middle of a years long battle, and sets up the Archer/Troy rivalry as something akin to Batman and the Joker with little explanation. This movie is an early 90s Dark Horse comic come to life.
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post #30 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
On a side note, I don't think I've ever seen Travolta look quite as 'big' as he looks in this film. He's rocking the extra pounds and double chin in this film but you don't really notice until he starts wearing three piece suits. The waistjacket is not a friend to the portly gentleman. He looks fine a few years later in stuff like Swordfish and Punisher.
Going along with what I said about Woo making his actors look good... I think Travolta looked great in this movie. I certainly don't disagree that he wasn't anywhere near as fit as he looked in Broken Arrow and the two movies you mentioned, but at least he wasn't sporting some ridiculous hair style.

The guy struts in this movie like a dancer and Woo really takes advantage of that. Plus they actually poke fun at his weight (love handles) and facial features (chin).
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post #31 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:42pm
Thread Starter 
He looks great a lot of the time in the film, I just don't think I've ever seen him look as big as he looks in the film. I've always like Travolta due to his physical presence, he has a way of moving and holding himself which is really quite unique and it really helps sell a lot of roles.

It's like Fishburne in Reloaded where generally speaking he looks great, but he also looks massive. He wears the weight well I think.
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post #32 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:45pm
His willingness to appear shirtless in Pulp Fiction was the best use of his bigness. Total "whoah" moment.
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post #33 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:46pm
Hahaha, yea. Fishburne definitely put on some pounds between the first and second Matrix movies.

The scene where Travolta kills Harve Presnell has a lot of subtle flourishes when he's looking around the office to make sure nobody is looking. Travolta's physical performance goes hand in hand with Woo/Wood's flowing camerawork. It's so pat to call it a dance, but that's what Travolta and the camera are doing.

Phil... it was like a big blob of blinding white skin!
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post #34 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
Seriously, are people just not reading threads anymore.
My apologies.
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post #35 of 70
6/12/10 at 2:53pm
I think Spike was directing that towards Kate, Tyler.
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post #36 of 70
6/12/10 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
I think Spike was directing that towards Kate, Tyler.
Yeah, but I'm guilty of the same crime AND I did so at the same time I was obsessively correcting someone's spelling, so shame on me anyway.
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post #37 of 70
6/12/10 at 3:13pm
Spike,

I apologize for missing that. I did skim the thread, but clearly I was not paying close enough attention
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post #38 of 70
6/12/10 at 4:40pm
The whole movie is worth it just for this scene. The face Cage makes when he's talking to Gershon is amazing.
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post #39 of 70
6/12/10 at 6:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Savage View Post
Face off is a film I can watch again and again. It's one of the few great modern action movies, in fact I would go so far as to say it's the Commando of it's decade.
I know you meant that as a compliment, but when you compare Mark L. Lester with John Woo you're losing. Woo is the best Action/genre director since Peckinpah. Commando is fun, but it sucks.
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post #40 of 70
6/12/10 at 6:30pm
Yeah, even though I do like me some Commando, comparing these two films is a slap in the face to the craftmanship on display here. Simply one of my favorite films of the 90's. Oddly it's also one that my real life friends have cooled on over the years. I find myself defending it all the time. It's so much damn fun.

While I may agree that Travolta gets to have more fun being the over the top bad guy, Cage does a hell of a job making you give a shit about Archer, and he totally nails Travolta's vocal patterns- some of the first scenes where he's trying to convince Eve of his true identity, I could have sworn that the "It's me, Sean" was completely dubbed.

Even if I didn't find the whole thing completely thrilling and engrossing, I'd still give it points just for scoring a huge setpiece to "Somewhere Over the Rainbow."

If I missed this in the thread, sorry, but those that haven't seen it for a while, next time look for Thomas Jane in the prison. I get a lot of "oh wow, I never realized that" when I point it out.

Also just remembered that the price for being able to watch this at the drive in was we had to jump screens after and let the ladies watch My Best Friend's Wedding.

Never forget to pour one out for Pinkus and Genelli.
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post #41 of 70
6/12/10 at 6:48pm
I loved Castor Troy, but I also love his relationship with his twitchy, weaselly brother Pollux. Love him tying his shoe after he's dead, then shooting that one dude in the head when he says "Sir? Why are you so upset, it's just Pollux Troy."

A shmorgishborg of great supporting actors too, just in the prison scene alone. John Carroll Lynch as the warden, Tom Jane as another inmate, and Chris Bauer from True Blood as Dubov.

Love that booming score too. Everytime they face off (Ha! Kill me..) there's that same DUN! Dun dun dun DUN! DUN! Dun dun dun DUUUUUN!
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post #42 of 70
6/12/10 at 7:29pm
Chris "Frank Sobotka" Bauer is another Wire alum.

Favorite part has to be the SUPER WAILING GUITAR during the first prison fight that punctuates Archer-doing-Troy's "craaaaazy face."

Pointless personal story about this movie: When I was working at a camp during the winter, I would make kids yell "I'm ready, ready for the big ride, baby" as they were going down the tube run. More than a few did it.
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post #43 of 70
6/12/10 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Savage View Post
Face off is a film I can watch again and again. It's one of the few great modern action movies, in fact I would go so far as to say it's the Commando of it's decade.

I'm probably going to cop some flack for this but I quite like Paycheck as well.
Face/Off is about too smart and way too well-made with above average action to be the Commando of the 90's. What is the true heir?

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post #44 of 70
6/12/10 at 9:35pm
Con Air is high concept. Commando is notable for being practically non-concept. Doesn't stick.
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post #45 of 70
6/12/10 at 10:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
On a side note, I don't think I've ever seen Travolta look quite as 'big' as he looks in this film. He's rocking the extra pounds and double chin in this film but you don't really notice until he starts wearing three piece suits. The waistjacket is not a friend to the portly gentleman. He looks fine a few years later in stuff like Swordfish and Punisher.
And he gets harpooned at the end! John Woo is not very subtle.

I adored this movie in high school, I must have seen it about 15 times along with The Rock, Con Air and Broken Arrow. This is definitely the best of them just for how well the action is shot, I tracked down Woo's HK output after seeing this.

You can tell how much fun the leads were having and it's infectious, even when Cage gets all melodramatic and overwrought ("oh Eve, don't look at my face!!") you can't help but smile.

Don't think it's been mentioned but the boat chase at the end is fantastic, well shot and thrilling. I might be mistaken, but it looks like all practical stuntwork and things like the boat crashing through the exploding police boat look and feel amazing. The rather blatant, non-lookalike stuntmen flying through the air in slow-mo just add to the charm.
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post #46 of 70
6/12/10 at 10:20pm
Thread Starter 
I also love the boat chase because it highlights the fact that John Woo doesn't give a fuck that a) his stuntmen look nothing like Travolota or Cage and b) is still happy to have them on screen for minutes at a time in super slow motion. Seriously the guys who get thrown out of the boat are so drab and ordinary looking compared to Cage and Travolta that it looks like an explosion of accountants has happened.
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post #47 of 70
6/12/10 at 10:31pm
Haha, they do look like accountants. I'm pretty sure they turn their heads and look at the camera whilst they are gliding through the air, they don't even try to hide their faces by putting their arms up, marvelous. It's also really noticeable when Cage is doing the no ski water-ski bit.

I really wished Woo had stayed in this mode for remainder of his Hollywood stuff which seem so sterile and risk averse in comparison.

This thread also reminds me I need to see Red Cliff.
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post #48 of 70
6/12/10 at 10:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Savage View Post
This thread also reminds me I need to see Red Cliff.
Mate, the Blu Ray of the four hour cut is on Amazon for £8. It's totally fucking worth it. Probably my second favourite Woo film.

Just don't bump PK's thread when you watch it, that's a can of rabid, incessant, worms that need never be opened again.
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post #49 of 70
6/13/10 at 12:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
The whole movie is worth it just for this scene. The face Cage makes when he's talking to Gershon is amazing.
That clip just reminds me of how crazy I was for John Powell's first credit as composer. Listened to this soundtrack all through high school and have been a fan of the man ever since.

As time passed, the actual action cues haven't aged so well, sounding like generic Zimmer/Media Ventures action riffs, but certain moments involving the main themes still have a great kick to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
I also love the boat chase because it highlights the fact that John Woo doesn't give a fuck that a) his stuntmen look nothing like Travolota or Cage and b) is still happy to have them on screen for minutes at a time in super slow motion. Seriously the guys who get thrown out of the boat are so drab and ordinary looking compared to Cage and Travolta that it looks like an explosion of accountants has happened.
Accountants as stunt-men. That's probably the best description I've heard for the blatant stunt-men. And yea, I loved the movie so much that such things just added to the charm. What's weird is that Woo's other Hollywood movies have generally done a pretty good job of hiding the stuntmen. It's as if he just went balls-out for Face/Off in particular.

I actually can't really watch this movie anymore. Like most movies I've gone ga-ga for, I killed it with my love.
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post #50 of 70
6/13/10 at 4:18am
I'd honestly forgot Joan Allen was in this. I still remember the scene where Cage comes flying out of the plane, guns blazing.

The loft shootout is one of the best setpieces Woo has ever directed, just amazingly kinetic and scored to 'Somewhere over the rainbow' while a little kid watches the carnage. ballsy.
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