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Going Head First Into Objectivism

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Alright, quick story.

So before class one day, a guy sits next to me and pulls out his laptop. There, on the top of the laptop is a sticker that says, "Who is John Galt?" I decided to ask him about objectivism and his opinion on it. He preceded to tell me about why he's an objectivist.

I told him that I had a problem with objectivism as an ideology because I find it to be impossible to achieve. To me, it's something very, very similar to Communism. Because of people's imperfections in their personalities and their treatment of other people, the ideology cannot be possibly implemented because it would lead to incredible societal problems.

I do appreciate where objectivism attempts to go moreso than Communism (which I find to be more flawed as an ideology), but to me the problem with Rand is that the ideology cannot be valid because it's impossible for it to exist and be a perfect utopia at the same time.

He informed me that it's true it cannot exist on a macro level, but that he attributes objectivism to his own personal life. As if it was some sort of tai-chi spiritual idea. That he attempts to make decisions in his life based on profit motive. He gave me an example. He said, "I have two options: 1. I can donate to charity or 2. I can use my money to buy something to eat. The problem is that I'm not very hungry at the moment. So, I attempt to figure out what's best for me. Donating to charity benefits me because I feel better about myself. I like to help people. But, eating food is something I absolutely have to do in order to survive. The problem is I'm not hungry, but I can be hungry later. Regardless of the decision, I choose to do whichever gives me the best profit. Buy food for future use or donate money and feel good for what I've done."

I told him I have a problem with that ideology. Not necessarily because of the idea itself, but because it sounds like a complete rip off of utilitarianism. I actually hold personal utilitarianism in high regard so hearing it come out of his mouth sounded quite odd to me. If you don't know what utilitarianism is it's the philosophy that the moral worth of an action is determined by its utility in creating pleasure or happiness. Personal utilitarianism is just the idea that you do something for the fact that it makes you happy or you gain pleasure of it. If you were a personal utilitarian, you would make decisions based on how happy it would make you feel.

So, here's the problem: What do you think of objectivism? I want real, thought out answers not stuff with no rational thought behind it.
post #2 of 24
I think objectivism is generally politics for selfish, borderline egomaniacal assholes who want to feel better about themselves and also think that they exist in a vacuum. Honest real, thought-out answer.
post #3 of 24
I think "Objectivism" is basically a cult built around an insufferable Russian woman whose sense of how to direct her anger was almost as poor as both her reading of Aristotle--every fucking chapter title in Atlas Shrugged is a reference to Aristotelian thought--and her worth as a human being. (There is a reason Rand needed to put these screeds into narratives and essays: she was--and still is--laughed out of the room by people who actually study political philosophy, ethics, and aesthetics.)

I think all you need to know about Rand as a thinker and a person is that she once said something to this effect about the USSR: "I admire your methods [i.e. forcing people to do their will] but hate your ideology." She basically hated the fact her family was well-to-do but had everything taken away from them by the members of the Revolution "for the people." So, she dedicated her entire life to elevating selfishness to a virtue and despising the masses. What she didn't seem to realize--because she was a horrible person and really, really poor thinker--was that she wasn't rebelling against Soviet thought, she was emulating it. She took the propaganda at face value and then did what they did for the reasons they did without realizing it.
post #4 of 24
Your initial reaction is the correct one, Pomp. Objectivism is just the inverse of communism. It is an extreme reaction to an extreme ideology. Just replace 'the people' with 'personal profit' and all they both line up. Neither one admits a continuity of interaction - the individual exists outside of the state, the person exists within a community, etc.

I think it might be some sort of social subconscious panic to see all this John Galt garbage popping up everywhere. Corruption undid communism and greed is currently undoing capitalism. We're going to be left with a hybrid model of state-directed capitalism and illiberal democracies. It would almost be reassuring to buy into the Randian bollocks of the world's "capitalist captains" retreating into the mountains while the world falls apart. The world is falling apart, and the only thing the captains of capitalism are doing is profit-taking.

It's a function of rational action. Corporate executives, companies themselves, individuals: all are acting in their own best interests, in reasonable and understandable ways. This is why it's wrong to think of the mortgage meltdown or the gulf blow-out as outliers where the 'system went mad.' The system, in those cases, was acting rationally. Banks needed to diversify their exposures to debt while maintaining quarterly profits, BP needed to get out ahead on a well that was running months behind schedule and costing them millions of dollars a day. In hindsight, it's easy to say "well that was a bad idea," but if the only interest that is really considered is (immediate) self-interest, whether on the personal or company level, entities will act rationally in pursuit of that self-interest until something unforeseen happens, at which point the consequences are massive and affect huge numbers of people that had no stake in these activities in the first place (a sort of intrusive tragedy of the commons deal).

Utilitarianism is useful in stable conditions, but once things get hectic, it quickly loses any value.
post #5 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
If you don't know what utilitarianism is it's the philosophy that the moral worth of an action is determined by its utility in creating pleasure or happiness. Personal utilitarianism is just the idea that you do something for the fact that it makes you happy or you gain pleasure of it. If you were a personal utilitarian, you would make decisions based on how happy it would make you feel.
Also, no offense, but this is demonstrates a horrible understanding of Utilitarianism. There really isn't such a thing as "personal utilitarianism." What you're describing as that is more like ethical hedonism with a rather unhealthy dose of selfishness. The Greatest Happiness Principle, i.e. the right thing consists in doing what "provides the greatest happiness for the greatest number of persons" is pretty much this: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It's the reason why people who assign worth to the individual hate Utilitarian thought. (Rawls' theory of justice was written pretty much as a "fuck you" to utilitarianism.)
post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
I think objectivism is generally politics for selfish, borderline egomaniacal assholes who want to feel better about themselves and also think that they exist in a vacuum. Honest real, thought-out answer.
Sound like 99.9+ of the human race to me. I am a firm believe in, other people is Hell.



Here the problem, people are so fucked up they can take the very best of ideals and will without a doubt totally fuck them up. This the thing moronic atheists like Dawkins, Hitchens, or Maher don't understand is the problem is not religion, but people. No I am not an Objectivist. I am against any group Ideology, simply because the bigger the group the more fuck up it will become. This also applies to governments, and corporations.
post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
Alright, quick story.

He informed me that it's true it cannot exist on a macro level, but that he attributes objectivism to his own personal life. As if it was some sort of tai-chi spiritual idea. That he attempts to make decisions in his life based on profit motive. He gave me an example. He said, "I have two options: 1. I can donate to charity or 2. I can use my money to buy something to eat. The problem is that I'm not very hungry at the moment. So, I attempt to figure out what's best for me. Donating to charity benefits me because I feel better about myself. I like to help people. But, eating food is something I absolutely have to do in order to survive. The problem is I'm not hungry, but I can be hungry later. Regardless of the decision, I choose to do whichever gives me the best profit. Buy food for future use or donate money and feel good for what I've done."

So, here's the problem: What do you think of objectivism? I want real, thought out answers not stuff with no rational thought behind it.
So I picked out this part of your comment to point something out: "Donating to Charity" may in fact be more than something to make oneself feel good. For example, by donating to a Food bank or a homeless shelter, you help people in a bad place get off the street/eat. This in turn may reduce crime, maintain social order, and reduce the strain on the Police, courts etc.

I think your colleague actually has the right idea: take selected principles from Objectivism (or Communism for that matter) that work for you and help you get your life together or make it better, ignore the kooky stuff. And don't join some group of cultists

Atlas Shrugged is regularly touted as the "2nd most inspirational book in America after the Bible". Clearly Americans are not responding to Rand's Atheism but to her belief in a free market and that the Individual is a supreme ideal.
post #8 of 24
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: “The Lord of the Rings” and “Atlas Shrugged.” One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
~John Rogers
post #9 of 24
I once heard that objectivism was to philosophy what scientology is to religion...maybe there's some truth to that.
post #10 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
So I picked out this part of your comment to point something out: "Donating to Charity" may in fact be more than something to make oneself feel good. For example, by donating to a Food bank or a homeless shelter, you help people in a bad place get off the street/eat. This in turn may reduce crime, maintain social order, and reduce the strain on the Police, courts etc.

I think your colleague actually has the right idea: take selected principles from Objectivism (or Communism for that matter) that work for you and help you get your life together or make it better, ignore the kooky stuff. And don't join some group of cultists

Atlas Shrugged is regularly touted as the "2nd most inspirational book in America after the Bible". Clearly Americans are not responding to Rand's Atheism but to her belief in a free market and that the Individual is a supreme ideal.
To be fair, couldn't you pick and choose from any ideology though? Apparently Cuch thinks I did that with utilitarianism even though I know what it means. I was merely trying to define my colleague's stance the best way I knew how because it sounded so familiar to my ears.
post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
To be fair, couldn't you pick and choose from any ideology though? Apparently Cuch thinks I did that with utilitarianism even though I know what it means. I was merely trying to define my colleague's stance the best way I knew how because it sounded so familiar to my ears.
Your definition of Utilitarianism is "the moral worth of an action is determined by its utility in creating pleasure or happiness." That's incorrect. The aim of Utilitarian moral calculus is to generate the most pleasant possible outcome for the majority of the agents in the moral community. Just having the aim of creating pleasure is just ethical hedonism. Ethical hedonism is a base element of Utilitarianism, but they're no more interchangeable than addition and multiplication are.
post #12 of 24
I have one governing rule that I ascribe to and I think if there is a God or some grand unifying force in the universe that it would agree with me: "Try not to be an asshole".

Since Rand's work is the antithesis (because it gives one many, many justifications to wallow in assholia) of that belief I feel no shame in saying that if you subscribe to her works you are, in all likelihood, a raging asshole. Does any of that meet your criteria of rationalism? Meh, probably not but I'm a big believer that there is nothing more rational than human empathy and the notion that what hurts me hurts others.
post #13 of 24
As has already been pointed out, Utilitarianism has nothing to do with solipsism. It is not simply about doing what makes you feel good.

And as usual, there are some in here who confuse selfishness with enlightened self-interest. They are two very different things.

And the one person who just hurled personal insults at Rand, please try not to be so typical.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Belz View Post
And the one person who just hurled personal insults at Rand, please try not to be so typical.

Ayn Rand was a shitty hack writer with rape fantasies who so loved the world she gifted it with a "religion" for misanthropes, douchebags, assholes, Republicans and the future junior Senator from the Commonwealth of Kentucky. She deserves every epithet hurled her way and then some.


At least Nietzsche was insane and nobody took him seriously.
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Adorno, Bataille, Baudrillard, Benjamin, Bloom, Allan, Buber, Butler, Camus, Deleuze, Derrida, Dreyfus, Foucault, Heidegger, Iqbal, Jaspers, Kaufmann, Kojeve, Onfray, Rand, Robakidze, Santayana, Sartre, Strauss, Spengler, Williams, Wittgenstein, Zapffe
Yeah, nobody took Nietzsche seriously.
post #16 of 24
I'm sorry that I didn't include the required reading from a college philosophy course in my post.

At least Nietzsche was insane and nobody that wasn't featured on a syllabus took him seriously. Rand's taint can be felt on American society, from government to the economy, for the last 50 years. When politicians start naming their children after Fred and pushing a platform dedicated to the Will to Power I'll buy what you're selling.
post #17 of 24
The argument for Objectivism usually includes some variation on "donating to a food bank will make me feel good, so Objectivists are more than willing to do good for others", but that argument kind of falls down if helping others doesn't make you feel good. And most of the tenets of Objectivism are geared towards making you avoid making "emotional" decisions like that one and looking (supposedly) cold-bloodedly and rationally at the situation. And then putting your own needs first. That's why I find this argument disingenuous.

There's a more solid case to be made for the argument that you need to exist as a member of society, and therefore it's rational to give back to society, and therefore Objectivists aren't really self-involved jerks. But in practice, Objectivists seem to hate any and all attempts to give back to society, to an irrational degree. This is a major contributor to the "I should never have to pay tax ever, and the richest people should be taxed less because they work harder" mentality that's been so pervasive lately.

It frosts my britches, because there are some laudable aspects to Objectivism, mostly in terms of their first principles, but they go off in numerous irrational tangents and call it "rationalism". It's hard to accept someone as celebrating intellect and rationality when they're so willing to embrace series of black-and-white moral principles and show contempt for anyone who challenges them.

And yeah, five minutes of reading Rand's non-fiction (which is all I've read, by the way, other than some sampling of Atlas Shrugged to confirm that yes, it's really, really badly written) should make it clear that she was pretty much a closet totalitarian.
post #18 of 24
Atlas Shrugged is hilariously awful and incoherent. I...just can't understand why it would change someone's life unless they were a person of remarkable stupidity. And Ayn Rand was by all accounts a lunatic. I have a wonderful rule: never subscribe to a philosophy created by a lunatic. IT WORKS.
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
To be fair, couldn't you pick and choose from any ideology though? Apparently Cuch thinks I did that with utilitarianism even though I know what it means. I was merely trying to define my colleague's stance the best way I knew how because it sounded so familiar to my ears.
Oh sure, in fact that's what I advocate. Just mindlessly giving yourself over to any ideology or religion just limits your mind and spirit IMO. Taking elements and ideas that work for you an make you a better person involves making choices, applying reason, and thus requires that one work on their beliefs rather than be a tool for some "leader" to use.
post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
Oh sure, in fact that's what I advocate. Just mindlessly giving yourself over to any ideology or religion just limits your mind and spirit IMO. Taking elements and ideas that work for you an make you a better person involves making choices, applying reason, and thus requires that one work on their beliefs rather than be a tool for some "leader" to use.
You can consistently adhere to an ideology without being "mindless" about it. Some people might even argue that cherrypicking the things you like from different schools of thought and tradition is a means of avoiding any and all actual intellectual engagement with them.

I know a few people who take the cafeteria approach to schools of thought--including *shudders* Rand's "thought"--and I never really get that. First, there's no point in taking an aspect of a worldview out of it's context. With Rand, for instance, when you divorce her concept of, say, self-actualization from being an insufferable bastard, the idea kind of ceases to be Randian. Second, creating a customized ideology by stitching a bunch of ideas you like from assorted sources together in some sort of mental patchwork sort of guarantees that you're going to have an internally inconsistent worldview.

If you truly can't find a school of thought that you identify with, it would be better to just think things through for yourself and come to your own conclusions. That way at least makes it much less likely that you'll be running into obstacles if you ever actually critically examine what you think, why you think it, and how those thoughts relate to each other.
post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
You can consistently adhere to an ideology without being "mindless" about it. Some people might even argue that cherrypicking the things you like from different schools of thought and tradition is a means of avoiding any and all actual intellectual engagement with them.

I know a few people who take the cafeteria approach to schools of thought--including *shudders* Rand's "thought"--and I never really get that. First, there's no point in taking an aspect of a worldview out of it's context. With Rand, for instance, when you divorce her concept of, say, self-actualization from being an insufferable bastard, the idea kind of ceases to be Randian. Second, creating a customized ideology by stitching a bunch of ideas you like from assorted sources together in some sort of mental patchwork sort of guarantees that you're going to have an internally inconsistent worldview.
Oh please, thinking for yourself instead of becoming someone's acolyte does not mean your avoiding intellectual engagement; quite the opposite.

The reason you find Objectivists to be "insufferbale bastards" is precisely because they adhere to Rand's Philosophy lock, stock and barrel. And I'm sure those people are intelligent, thinking Human Beings: but they filter everything through Rands' philosophy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
If you truly can't find a school of thought that you identify with, it would be better to just think things through for yourself and come to your own conclusions. That way at least makes it much less likely that you'll be running into obstacles if you ever actually critically examine what you think, why you think it, and how those thoughts relate to each other.
That is what I said in my earlier post...
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
Second, creating a customized ideology by stitching a bunch of ideas you like from assorted sources together in some sort of mental patchwork sort of guarantees that you're going to have an internally inconsistent worldview.
I really don't think it does, as long as you've put some thought into your own underlying principles. Some other philosopher, or what have you, may make a point that makes sense and is consistent with what you believe, but then they may make another argument that doesn't and isn't. I think Randians' focus on rationalism is a good point worth taking to heart, but the conclusions they draw from this don't make sense to me. That doesn't mean I'm being inconsistent, it means I'm weighing each individual argument against my own personal principles.

If I'd decided to take hold of Rand's principles of self-interest without the underlying "rational" foundation, just because I wanted an excuse to be selfish, then yes, I'd be inconsistent. But I think Objectivism isn't very consistent to begin with, so...
post #23 of 24
I've never been concerned about labels. I don't feel the need to justify what I believe in or the way my moral compass needle points by the books I've read. Some of the most profound, honest, upstanding, insightful and loyal people I've met have nothing more than a high school education and couldn't tell Kierkegaard from Capt. Kirk. It's the height of arrogance to suggest that strict adherence to any one particular school (be it philosophy, psychology, religion, metaphysics) is the sole determining criteria for the realization of whatever "truth" you're in search of.

Maybe I misunderstood but that seems to be the suggestion presented.
post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
I really don't think it does, as long as you've put some thought into your own underlying principles. Some other philosopher, or what have you, may make a point that makes sense and is consistent with what you believe, but then they may make another argument that doesn't and isn't. I think Randians' focus on rationalism is a good point worth taking to heart, but the conclusions they draw from this don't make sense to me. That doesn't mean I'm being inconsistent, it means I'm weighing each individual argument against my own personal principles.
What you're describing doesn't really strike me as a "cafeteria" approach to constructing a customized ideology. What you seem to be describing is coming to a source with a set of principles you've already thought through and adopted and critically assessing what that source has to offer and how it relates to that set of principles. In my experience, that's not what most people who cherrypick their core ideas on life from different sources do.

In my experience, the kind of people who cherrypick ideas/take a cafeteria approach to their core ideology are the kind of people who buy The Secret. That is, they're the kind of people who adopt ideas strictly because they're ideas they like and reinforce their positive appraisals of their own persons without ever leading them to the dangerous waters of critical self-examination.

Quote:
If I'd decided to take hold of Rand's principles of self-interest without the underlying "rational" foundation, just because I wanted an excuse to be selfish, then yes, I'd be inconsistent. But I think Objectivism isn't very consistent to begin with, so...
I agree with you appraisal of Objectivism, but I also think that once you divorce these concepts from their context, there really is no point in describing them as ideas belonging to a particular thinker. They're just general principles that you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
I've never been concerned about labels. I don't feel the need to justify what I believe in or the way my moral compass needle points by the books I've read. Some of the most profound, honest, upstanding, insightful and loyal people I've met have nothing more than a high school education and couldn't tell Kierkegaard from Capt. Kirk. It's the height of arrogance to suggest that strict adherence to any one particular school (be it philosophy, psychology, religion, metaphysics) is the sole determining criteria for the realization of whatever "truth" you're in search of.

Maybe I misunderstood but that seems to be the suggestion presented.
I wasn't arguing for strict adherence to any particular school of thought as much as I was arguing for intellectual rigor and consistency, which are things that I think are absent from a cafeteria approach to thought. As I pointed out above, I think cafeteria thinking is kind of a subhuman/animalistic way of thinking in which the "thinker" just stumbles from one thing that makes him or her feel good to another.

Personally, I believe in Truth--i.e. that there is such a thing as a universal, objective standard of truth--but have an inclusivist view of life. That is, some ways of thinking are better paths to Truth than others, but that most schools of thought at least get some things right. Getting those things right are what they owe to their intellectual rigor and consistency.
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