I married a TV antihero...

I had posted this in the Breaking Bad thread, removed it there and pasted it here, so its kinda answering to posts that aren't here, but it's a start:

People hate Carmela? First I've heard of that. I've also never heard anyone hating on the women in Deadwood or Rome, maybe because they get naked.

Haven't seen Deadwood or Rome, but I've heard Carmela referred to as a bitch a LOT of times.

I also seem to recall people hating Niobe, for that matter.

Betty Draper's turn to almost a full-blown antagonist has been one of the best parts of Mad Men the past season.

For the sake of argument, Roger's two wives on MAD MEN are far less nuanced/more stereotypical than Betty, especially after he leaves Mona for Jane. And you could make the argument for Trudy as being portrayed negatively as well -- many of her actions in the first season make Pete feel de-masculinized, and box him in to such an extent that he lashes out with things like date rape.

The inverse of that is that we all hate Joan's husband.

I like Deadwood being brought up in this argument because, aside from Bullock's wife and Alma, very few of the characters on the show are actually married.

A woman's part is written poorly because the character is unlikeable?

In Breaking Bad Marie was extremely unlikeable, and now she's brilliant. Same with Hank in fact. Skylar's a lot more complicated than those two and is less of a peacemaker than Marie (rather surprisingly) turned out to be. So it plays that her journey to being "likable" (I'd argue the term you're after is "relateable") is going to be a longer/more complex one. We've only scraped the surface of Her and Walt's early relationship anyway.

I've never felt Marie's character development to be false and same with Skylar, though Skylar has been given more "bitch" moments if you will (see how deflated she was when after discovering Marie was a shoplifter and Hank already knew and had made peace with it). From what we've seen of Walt in his pre-Skylar days and his movement to becoming Heisenberg after the break-up, it makes sense that Skylar was the dominant personality in the relationship and holds/helda view of life that hasn't been challenged as much as it maybe should have been (again, that shoplifting episode not only challenged her sense of how she saw her sister, she interestingly glanced over her own wonderful performance and adeptness at spinning a load of bull to get out of trouble - a skill that resurfaced with her lie about Walt's gambling system).

Skylar's brilliantly written (and performed - god bless Anna Gunn), as a flawed human being, and has been from day one. But her character arc is far from over and they've proven through the other character work that the more abrasive/"unlikeable" they seem at first, the more engaging and multi-dimensional they become as the layers are peeled away.

It seems to me to be more a lack of patience in the audience, which I can certainly understand with Breaking Bad. The wait for next year's season is murder. I think when Skylar's arc finally comes around it'll be fucking electric personally, and be worth the wait.

And those two marriages aren't really similar to any other one mentioned in this thread.

Um, isn't Betty Draper the poster child for what feminism supposedly has been rebelling against all these years?

That being said I would think her character is written quite accurately and find no reason to despise her. It actually bothers me to have Don's philandering be so acceptable. I like the show for not whitewashing the reality of the time but I don't know why Betty would be despised.

But why despise an honestly written character? I applaud the attention to the details of the time period.

You have Roger's first wife as the old standard(weakest part of this analogy), Betty is an intermediate caught almost out of time not knowing if she wants to be the devoted housewife or if there something more for women out there and then you have the future of feminism in Joan.

Joan is arguably the future in the free-love, use your womanly assets as power to live life on your terms.

Peggy actually frustrates the hell out of me because she alternates between an "all the cool kids are doing it" follower and a shrewd but unbalanced leader. Albeit a leader unable to break the reinforced glass ceilings of her time.

Peggy therefore could be the face of future bitter feminism from the sixties through the eighties. Joan is the feminism of the nineties and on. Peggy will fight the battles and Joan will reap the rewards.

Tzu's way wrong. If anything, Joan represents the "old" model of feminism, in that she's a powerful woman in the workplace, but only within the model that she's been taught by society. She would never dream of going for a job that puts her on even keel with "the boys", even though we've seen she'd be great at it. She, also, sees the work as something to do while waiting for the "more rewarding" work of being a housewife and a mother -- though it's clear that working at Sterling-Cooper is where she can shine and excell.

Peggy, on the other hand, isn't afraid to go after what she wants, whether it's a promotion or a one-night stand. She might not be using her womanly assets to get ahead in the workplace, but the scene in season three where she picks up a guy by pretending to be a secretary ("my boss is a real jerk") shows that she can play the dumb cute girl to get what she wants.

I would argue that we are both correct. I would say still that Joan represents the present state of feminism and the swing back towards family life versus dog eat dog corporate advancement.

Peggy does go after what she wants but it is always hampered by her being slightly unhinged and/or just doing it because "the cool kids are."

First I'd ever heard of people not liking Carmella (in terms of dramatic satisfaction). Boggles my mind. Though I had heard that about AJ and Meadow, but that's understandable.

Also, NO ONE was supposed to like Mara, though by the end I think you have to do a little bit of a turnaround on her just because she remained 100% loyal to Shane, in the most extreme of circumstances and after having been given the option of immunity to turn him over.

What's the general consensus on McNulty's wife? The first three or four seasons she does seem like an extreme bitch, even given what we know about McNulty's philandering. But then when you see it in action in the fifth, you completely understand why she was so bitter, and realize it kind of was entirely justified.

Just to get it out of the way, I think Peggy, Joan, and Betty are all too complex and contradictory to nail down as fully representative of anything. That said, I think Rath's a little closer on the issue of feminism here. If we're to interpret feminism as being about opportunity, and reward on equal terms, Joan's rooted in the past. She's capable and smart, but also relatively content to recognize the reality of the times and use traditionally feminine traits to work within the established paradigm. Peggy's pushing against the boundaries - she'll use sex appeal, yes, but, unlike Joan, it's in a much less conservative way and toward much less conservative ends.

If you think Joan fully reflects the present state of feminism, I think you'd also have to accept that Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter reflect it, and that doesn't ring true to me. Not that I necessarily equate Joan to these people, but her feminism is still a feminism based on exceptionalism and the exploitation of traditional gender roles rather than the questioning or overthrowing of them.

I also think Betty's getting a raw deal here, but that's another post for another time, perhaps (although I think TzoDoNymh was on the right track above - she's understandably frustrated and it manifests in an irresponsibility that's dwarfed by her husband's, but hated moreso because of the role she's expected to fulfill as a wife and mother).

I'm halfway through season two of Breaking Bad. Skyler has been wonderfully portrayed by Anna Gunn, but, as of right now, the writing is actively trying to make you not like her, I think. Someone earlier said she gets a lot of "bitch" moments, and I would have to agree. Even though the character pisses me off to no end, I can't wait to see where the writers and Anna take it as the series progresses.

As a big Sopranos fan, I do remember feeling a little annoyed with Carmela sometimes. I didn't hate her character. Far from it, actually, but I was more interested in seeing just how far Tony would be willing to go in certain instances. Carmela holding him back is also holding the audience back from seeing this guy go full-tilt nuts at times. It's sort of like in movies where the hero has the bad guy cornered with a gun to his head, ready to pull the trigger, but of course someone comes running in and cries "Nooo! You're better than this!" when all we want to see is some brains splattered on the wall. It's not an issue of writing women poorly. Gender isn't the issue here. The issue is the function that the character serves. If the antihero was a woman and her husband was trying to rein her in, the audience would feel the same resentment. We want to see that final line get crossed, and we know that as long as the spouse/kid/boss/whoever is around to cockblock us, we'll never see it.

It's been established that Betty got an Anthropology degree from Bryn Mawr. That's a Seven Sisters school, and it doesn't seem as if her parents were quite wealthy enough to get her accepted without her being a pretty good student in the first place. She also speaks fluent Italian. I read these not as random, unbelievable traits that the writers are deploying to flesh out a seemingly "vapid" character, but subtle, important hints about her past and her character. It's too deliberate. And if it seems jarring, I think that's the point - we're supposed to be surprised to see this character, who seems childish and fumbling at times, to have untapped potential and worldliness under the surface.

Betty is emotionally immature, and she doesn't always have the best grip on the domestic duties that she's expected to perform. But that's the wrinkle - she's expected to perform them; unlike Don and his colleagues, she didn't choose to have them and had very few choices presented to her.

Unlike Peggy and Joan, she didn't learn a trade, but pursued an academic interest that couldn't easily be translated into work and then attempted a brief career at modeling (but, perhaps wisely at the time, opted for stability). There are people for whom straight-up domesticity isn't suited, and when an entire gender is limited to basically two options (low-level office worker or housewife), you're going to see a lot of reasonably intelligent people put into situations that present them in the worst possible light. This is why Betty can be infuriating. But I don't think she's stupid in the slightest - she's just in the wrong line of work.

Just pretend that Rath and Dave are my proxies in this thread, until they post something about dicks and then it'll be me poking through for a brief second. Great points, fellas.

Isn't the irredeemable tragedy of Betty's arc the loveless and almost cruel way she treats/takers her frustrations out on her children, especially her daughter?

I'm just over the halfway mark of S2, Matthew, and I agree completely. The makers of BREAKING BAD strike me as smart and talented enough not to make anyone two-dimensional, and at this stage it strikes me that Skylar is being placed under various degrees of stress from various directions which, while seemingly not as pressing (pregnancy versus cancer, taking a job with her old employer versus cooking up big batches of meth), are still edging her towards a breaking point. It would be churlish not to feel some sympathy or empathy for her under the circumstances.

Still, that bit where Walt presented her with the flushed pack of smokes and she mocked that she might have smoked them in a "fugue state" seemed like a low fuckin' blow. As many other 'outraged' fans have noted, she didn't know Walt was faking his blackout.

It seems that Walt is venting years and years worth of frustration, and the women in his life - Skylar and, in that incredible confrontation, Gretchen - are bearing the brunt of it.

The 2nd cell phone was never resolved in her mind. That combined with knowing (the way only a spouse can know a spouse) that something had changed in Walt. She knew something was up. All that psyching out/excruciating mind game bullshit with Walter after the Tuco disappearance, is really all about that second cell phone. She just knew he was lying.

In the first season, cancer was what allowed Skyler to compartmentalize Walt's "metamorphosizing". Second cell phone changed that in season 2.

Spoiler for the second half of season 2

And even that she eventually buries until the season 2 finale. Although the act of going to work for Beneke again is obviously the precursor to I.F.T. She'll deal with Walter's bullshit, but she has to rebel somehow for her piece of mind.

See, I get that the thread is discussing seasons past but the dude said he was halfway through season 2, why are you posting spoilers in a reply to him?

Isn't the majority of the writing staff of Mad Men women?

This entire conversation is kind of fabulous and made me go hunt down Feministing's recaps of Mad Men.

I'd rehash what they said, but they said it better then I ever could. I know a LOT of "feminist" blogs and sites got on the Mad Men bandwagon this year specifically because of Betty Draper.

I'm actually just starting to watch the show for that reason (and you know, how it's a treatise for feminism post First Wave and pre-Second Wave). I tend to be rather sexist. I'll avoid a show if it lacks strong female characters. In fact many of the shows mentioned I've actually never watched BECAUSE the women in them are frequently written as harpies.

Which leads to my confusion of including Carmela in the list. It's been a while since I watched the Sopranos but I remember her as being a very nuanced character. Sure she was in denial, but hell they devoted most of the last season to exploring that denial. They made denial kind of fascinating. Also Edie Falco is amazing...even on Nurse Jackie.

Also I don't really see how the women of Deadwood could be included in this conversation. I mean you COULD talk about Martha Bullock is you want to call the sheriff and anti-hero, but he wasn't really one. Swearengen was but his relationship with Trixie wasn't exactly marriage like.

Thanks, Snaieke. Got carried away.

That's definitely part of it, but I think that unfairly limits Betty to the role of "cause" when it comes to tragedy. She's a pretty tragic character all on her own. Also, who's to say which Draper parent is having the worse effect on their children? Betty has more of a role in their upbringing on an hour-by-hour basis by virtue of being around them more, but Don's an absolutely terrible father, even given the relatively low expectations for fathers in that era. He's nice to the kids, sure, but he's regularly eschewed spending time with them in favor of getting drunk or laid, he's skipped town on his family with no explanation, and he's just generally irresponsible when it comes to his home life.

Yeah, I've noticed this, too. After the first season, I suspect that a lot of viewers expected Peggy to be the series' token feminist figure (and she's an incredibly interesting one - maybe my favorite character on the show), but her arc is kind of easy in that it's a crowdpleaser. Through her, we get to celebrate all of that nice stuff about feminism where a strong women can work with and compete with men in the workplace, given willpower and smarts.

Betty's story brings a lot of the more complicated aspects of gender into relief, and that makes people more uncomfortable. While most of Peggy's battles (equality in the workplace, independence and sexuality, etc.) are at least freely discussed in pop culture, some of the societal factors that most affect Betty (double-standards in fidelity, level of responsibility for child-rearing, domestic roles of women) remain ambiguous.

I like that the feminist sites started paying attention to this complexity, especially because Mad Men is one of those shows that could easily be dismissed on image. AMC is certainly guilty of playing up a glamorized "old boys club" thing during promotions for the first season (and this continues through a cultural fetishization of the clothing and other superficial elements of the show). I can see how this might have been a huge turnoff for anyone with an interest in the politics of the era (gender and otherwise). The odd thing is that it's, in many ways, primarily about those politics, although they're filtered through complicated and nuanced characters who happen to dress nicely.

Since it sounds like you're not entirely caught up with Mad Men, I'll be curious to hear what you think of Betty's arc. Obviously, some viewers do think she's a harpy.

I think when you're talking about Betty Draper, you have to recognize that part of the reason her third-season arc makes her unlikeable is that so many of her scenes - before she discovers Don's secret identity, anyway - are so boring. Or "deliberately paced," if you'd prefer.

I realize it's a big leap for her to have an affair, but given the show's approach to married life, the affair was not exactly an unforeseeable development, either. That made a lot of the "will she/won't she" scenes pretty excruciating. (Of course, the same is true of Don's affair with Ms. Farrell.)

It could be very germaine when you take into account that on the surface, Alma Garrett/Ellsworth is a much nastier character than any of the previously mentioned women. She's a terrible wife and mother, and practically bursts with pride and selfishness. Yet she's awesome, and everyone thinks she's awesome. I'd normally pretend it's because Deadwood fans are better evolved than the unwashed masses, but I think it's because Alma isn't the wife of the antihero, she IS the antihero. So maybe it's not so much a gender thing (or not exclusively a gender thing) as it is a push against the wet blanket character.

That said, the only character I could really assign that to is Betty Draper, and I'm not up to date with that show. Skylar hate is mystifying to me, and Carmela hate is absurd. The only thing she ever did worth disliking was a homophobic reading of Billy Budd.

I think several characters mentioned here are the "wife character", and their degrees of success boil down to how much effort was taken in making them real persons. While Deadwood characters, Alma being a good example, are themselves first and their role second.

Looking up thoughts on Deadwood online, which is harder than it sounds as it predates the current TV blogosphere thing, I found this buried in Alan Sepinwall's blog, on his review for I Am Not the Fine Man You Take Me For:

The OC reference had been previously referenced by him, in the comments section of his review of Tell Your Gods to Ready for Blood:

So, my question here would be something like: having not taken part in Deadwood's fanbase as it was airing, is this really the case? People actively disliked Alma?