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2010 NBA Draft/Offseason - Page 15

post #701 of 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCynic View Post
They just won two titles on the back of defense, interior size and rebounding. So no, they probably don't make that trade... unless I imagined the past 2 titles they've won.

Can't stay healthy? Bynum has had freak accidents. Lets not pretend he's Grant Hill in 2003. Your appraisal of him is way off. He's a 7 footer and young and has touch. Show me one of them in the league who isn't making over 10 million a year please.

You don't get value for stars that want out of town, you mostly get filler and/or cap space... you should know that, since you referenced the Pau trade in your own post.
The Pau trade was a retarded fluke, and you know it. The entire league had their jaws drop when that went down, and other teams would have been happy to trade more but really weren't given the option to do so.

Bynum can't stay healthy. I say it because that's what he's shown. You honestly haven't heard about the Lakers sending out feelers trying to see what they can get for him? They are, and they should be. When fluke injuries happen repeatedly to the same guy, they stop being fluke injuries.

Luckily for you I feel like your general manager has a much better concept of balancing the present title push with an eye towards the future knowing the mileage that Kobe has on his body right now.
post #702 of 723
They can send out feelers for one guy all they want... but the fact of the matter is getting Paul for Bynum and Odom probably makes this a worse team given the landscape of today's NBA.

I'd love to hear all the other offers for Pau at the time... I've heard Gordon/Nocioni, which I do not think is a better deal. When someone wants out, you get mostly shit, space, and picks. Memphis wanted cap space, and that's what they got.

Lakers were smart with the Shaq trade, they parlayed that one declining superstar for 1 good player, cap space and 1 very valuable expiring contract, but the Shaq trade itself was mostly a nightmare.
post #703 of 723
Couple of nice little articles at yahoo.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba-257453

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba-257651

Wow Paul really gets slammed. Rightfully so but whatever.

I didn't know the Spurs gave up that much for Jefferson. He's always been a 3 guy not a two or 1 right? What was Pop thinking?

Also Barnes and Ratliff to the Lakers. Good experience but Ratliff is over the hill and all of a sudden with a shooter like Barnes and the Blake move the Lakers just got that much better from the outside. Good moves unless injury rubs them out.

Arroyo back with Miami. Solid piece.
post #704 of 723
Nice twist of fate for Barnes -- last week he thought he was going to sign with Toronto in a sign-and-trade deal, until he found out neither team had the cap space to do such a deal. And now he ends up with the defending champs.

Oh, and he turned down a bigger offer from Cleveland to go to the Lakers.
post #705 of 723
I don't think I've seen Theo Ratliff play in 8 years. Can he still defend?
post #706 of 723
Theo isn't actually going to play. Theo Ratliff's expiring contract will.
post #707 of 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCynic View Post
I don't think I've seen Theo Ratliff play in 8 years. Can he still defend?
You have to have working knees to defend as far as I know.
post #708 of 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Pathetic View Post
You have to have working knees to defend as far as I know.
Not necessarily...look at Andrew Bynum.
post #709 of 723
CBS Sports is reporting that New Orleans GM Dell Demps has said Chris Paul did not request a trade during their meeting today. Of course, doesn't mean he won't request one, but this will probably cool things off for a bit. Except in Orlando, where they'll still find a way to blame Otis Smith for not pulling off a trade for a player whose team doesn't want to trade him.
post #710 of 723
Paul just defused the situation we will see if he turns up the juice at the trading deadline.

My early prediction YES. He smells Melo in NY.
post #711 of 723
Looks like it will be Heat vs Celtics for NBA opener.
post #712 of 723
Glad to see one of my all-time favorite players, Dennis Johnson, make the HOF. People remember him as the slow and steady player on the Celtics, but back in the day, on the Sonics and the Suns, he was a funky player with an intense game and a maverick attitude. Finals MVP in 79, I remember catching reruns of that series on NBA TV and being amazed to see him drive the lane, jewelery jangling, and throwing down on the Bullets front line! The cornerstone of one of the best three guard rotations ever (along with Gus "The Wizard" Williams and "Down Town" Freddy Brown), he was one of the best defenders his position has ever seen (Think heady blend of Dumars and J. Kidd).

87 playoffs “ Now there's a steal by Bird! Underneath to DJ who lays it in!!...Right at one second left! What a play by Bird!! Bird stole the inbounding pass, laid it up to DJ, and DJ laid it up and in, and Boston has a one-point lead with one second left! Oh, my, this place is going crazy!!!"--one of the greatest plays/game finishes I've ever seen live. The steal was awesome, but the finish almost as dificult and remarkable.

Bird called him the best teammate he ever had. There's a good reason for that compliment.
post #713 of 723
Guy was legendary no doubt.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba-259688
Kelly Dwyer says Shaq, sorry, is not the 'most dominant player ever'

There's no great fun in ganging up on a lion in winter. There's no fun in actually just taking on a lion in winter by my lonesome. As much as he's done to tick you, and me, off? Shaquille O'Neal(notes) is still charming. He still finds to leave us laughing with him, not at him, in the end.

That's one side of it. And the other? That charming persona allows us, many of us, to often forget how many chances he's squelched on his way toward being one of the best candidates that could have been the best player ever. You tend to forget how often this guy has let himself (to say nothing of his most ardent fans) down. You tend to forget how he's betrayed his own gifts. How he sloughed off a chance at the mantle for a chance at a summer spent jet-skiing and carb-loading, or possibly working on that left hand.

Or his face up game.

Or his side-to-side defense.

Or, ask your parents, his free throws.

This isn't to tell you that Shaquille O'Neal is the same unrefined talent that entered the NBA in 1992. I'd be way, way off in that ignorant re-telling. But he has coasted.

He's put in ungodly amounts of work, and dealt with physical frustrations that none of us will (thankfully) ever know. But he also stepped short of taking it to the next level. We can blame his physical makeup or the times or his injuries or whatever we want. But the fact remains that, due to his often-out of shape appearance and his refusal to take blame when the going got tough, Shaq was never the no-question top center of all time that he could have become.

Which makes this quote more than a little troubling:

"I'm a weird big guy. Doing rapping, doing movies. Do a lot of stuff.

"But always do things the right way. Changed three different franchises around (Orlando, L.A. Lakers and Miami). This is a guy who they (league officials) would have secret meetings about to change the rules. So, that's going to be my legacy: The most dominant player ever."

I won't touch the rapping. Since the Native Tongues scene strayed off, I'm pretty unaware.

And the NBA looking to put rules together to hinder his play? Short of the lifting of strong side zone restrictions (one of the more obscure rule changes that nobody talks about) prior to 1999-00 (before Shaq had ever earned a ring), I can't really think of any. It's in his head.

But dominance? Most dominant player, ever?

How does one define dominance? On a Monday in March ten years ago? Yeah, those 61 points were dominant. That whole 2000-01 season was dominant. The year after, too, while Kobe Bryant(notes) slummed amongst the martyrs and made life difficult. Allen Iverson(notes) (the voted-on MVP) may have been the better story that season, but Shaquille O'Neal was the better player. Was twice the player.

And Shaq's gifts were never fully realized as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's were in his time with Oscar Robertson (who, left without Paul Silas setting screens for him, dumped it into the skilled young center), or Abdul-Jabbar's time before Magic Johnson (when it was Kareem, all alone, taking the lumps but getting to put up the numbers). Shaq's best years were spent in an offense that asked the center to think pass-first, and yet he dominated first, second, and last. If anything - and this isn't some caveat put down to make myself feel better about ripping on the guy - his time spent with the Lakers under Phil Jackson has been underrated.

Severely, underrated. Look up those stats. Chase down those YouTube videos. Remember, just how brilliant this guy was.

But stop short of calling him the "most dominant player ever," as he'd like you to.

Because he wasn't. And, you know what? There's no great shame in that.

There might be a little shame. There might be a lot of shame. If you have the chance at being the best at something, you should seek that out to no end. But big men, at this level? A lot of them don't truly enjoy the game. A lot of them are in it because a parent or sixth grade history teacher told them that their size would work best in this arena; even if it took them years to play in an arena.

And I can't blame them for that, especially big men. Because of the bumps, the bruises, the intentional fouls and way-more-intentional screaming flops that land talented centers on the bench in the first quarter with their second foul of the game. It's a miserable existence, being a center in the NBA in this era. Nobody will pass you the ball, and the referees won't give you the benefit of the doubt. Seriously, even forgetting all the stress fractures, it stinks.

So I can, as you should be able to, understand why Shaq was more interested in bad rap albums and bad fitness habits in the offseason. He's human, and he's not Kobe. Nobody's Kobe, in terms of work ethic; save for maybe Michael Jordan, Karl Malone, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird over the last 30 years.

But he can't have it both ways.

Shaq wasted his best years. He put up with so much, but he also used that as an excuse to give so little when it came time to prepare for putting up with so much. He got by on skill and brawn alone for most of his run. This isn't to say he completely eschewed off-court workouts, or honing his craft. But this is to say that he didn't do nearly what it took to make him the "most dominant player ever."

At his best? Sure. I might take Shaquille O'Neal's March Monday, in 2000 against the Clippers, above any other pivotman. In his prime - his worked-toward prime - he was amazing.

But the most player dominant ever? Shaq, I'm sorry, but that ain't you. Most likable? Maybe. Most dominant for short stretches? I might give you that, considering the abilities of your opposition compared with the likes of Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell's combatants.

There's no way that holds up over a career, though. Even if it isn't over.

You had your time, and your fun. But as winter sets in, Shaq, you just don't compare.
post #714 of 723
That nails Shaq pretty succinctly.

Wilt was the guy they changed the rules on. And as for most dominant big man--hard to argue against George Mikan (brought on radical rule changes as well).

My Top 10 Centers/ Big Men:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar --combination longevity, overall skill, and winning; sky-hook was a mother fucker

2. Wilt Chamberlain --Nobody roots for Goliath; sttats alone hard to argue against; his one big weakness was lack of killer instinct in biggest games; mentally-dominated by Russell

3. Bill Russell--ultimate winner and defensive force; an amalgam of Dennis Rodman and Michael Jordan; offensive game underrated; sacrificed numbers to give touches to shooter heavy line ups

4. George Mikan--he was the NBA early on, when he came to town it was "George Mikan vs ...", won seven NBL, BAA and NBA championships, an All-Star MVP trophy, three scoring titles and was member of the first four NBA All-Star and the first six All-BAA and All-NBA Teams. Mikan was so dominant that he caused several rule changes in the NBA, among them widening the foul lane and introducing the shot clock.

5. Hakeem Olajuwon-- a graceful lethal weapon on both ends of the floor; in modern era, only player to touch same heights as Jordan and Kobe. 94-95, he was untouchable.

6. Tim Duncan -- "The Big Fundamentals" is unassuming to the point of being almost anti-flash, but --without the aid of the refs--second most dominant player of the decade

7. Shaq -- the most overrated player of the modern era? No doubt, but the rings don't lie. Gotta give him that.

8. Moses Malone -- Original "Big Nasty"; best offensive rebounder of all-time; for about a ten year stretch he was destroying everybody on mediocre teams; 83 MVP run was anchor of one of greatest teams ever; After that the drive was gone

9. Bob Pettit --proto-Larry Bird/ Dirk Nowitski; deadly shooter; fierce rebounder; interrupted Boton's championship run by taking Hawks to title in '58

10 Nate Thurmond--"Nate the Great", most underrated big man of alltime; lost in the shadow of With and Russ and then Kareem, just check out the numbers (He averaged 21.3 and 22.0 rebounds per game in 67-68; and was the first player ever to get quadruple-double); put underdog Cavs on his back and took them to conference finals in 75, losing to Celtic juggernaut
post #715 of 723
So Shaq is signing with the Boston Celtics? I guess he doesn't care if his jersey is retired by the Lakers or not.
post #716 of 723
If the Celtics could only find a way to turn the clock back to '04...
post #717 of 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
If the Celtics could only find a way to turn the clock back to '04...
If they can do it, then Shaq won't have been willing to sign for only $1.4 mil and an one-year deal; Boston got what they paid for.
post #718 of 723
Okay, it looks like Shaq has signed with Celtics for 2-year, $3 mil contract. It's going to be interesting to see Shaq & the Celtics vs Wade/LeBron/Bosh's Heat in the opener.
post #719 of 723
In a team full of aging superstars past their prime, Shaq solves all our problems!
post #720 of 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Bean View Post
In a team full of aging superstars past their prime, Shaq solves all our problems!
It does look like Boston players can start applying for AARP memberships.
post #721 of 723
It would be one of the biggest stories ever if they came togther and win it.

<Old school players to new school fools Celtics keep it jumpin' like kangaroos>
post #722 of 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
It would be one of the biggest stories ever if they came togther and win it.

<Old school players to new school fools Celtics keep it jumpin' like kangaroos>
Considering we were 6 points away from this last year, it's not impossible.
post #723 of 723
Well, it looks like the Hornets are serious about keeping Chris Paul. They just swung a four-team deal that gets them Trevor Ariza, although it did cost them Darren Collison.
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