CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › Films in Release or On Video › DOOMED FROM THE START - July 2010 - WHITE HEAT and JUICE
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

DOOMED FROM THE START - July 2010 - WHITE HEAT and JUICE

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
Two selections featuring young thugs doing what they do best. There's been a recent re-evaluation of Tupac Shakur's work as an actor. A lot of people have gone so far as to compare him to Cagney at his prime.

I'm not so sure if I see it.

So, we'll take a look at two films from both parties this month.


WHITE HEAT (1949)
d. Raoul Walsh

JUICE (1992)
d. Ernest R. Dickerson


Discuss below.
post #2 of 16
Bump
Currently tracking down the films.
post #3 of 16
Thread Starter 
I worried about how hard it would be for you to find Juice. White Heat shouldn't be that much of a problem. I thought WB released it in Regions 1-4.
post #4 of 16
Worry not, a friend of mine is a die hard Tupac fan. He's got it.
post #5 of 16
White Heat is one of my favorite secret-gay movies ever.
post #6 of 16
This is a brilliant combo.

Comparing Tupac to Cagney is silly... But he was a decent actor. Juice is actually a pretty entertaining urban thriller. It was mismarketed as a kind of Boyz N The Hood movie. But it's really more akin to 90s psycho thrillers like Single White Female.
post #7 of 16
Thread Starter 
It's a few weeks after the fact regarding the Cagney/Shakur discussions. But, when you look at White Heat and the dynamic that it creates...compare it to Juice.

How these kids try to impose seemingly out-dated rules in an environment that would fucking destroy anyone like Cagney's Cody.
post #8 of 16
Just saw White Heat. Loved it.
Will elaborate tomorrow!
post #9 of 16
I don't think i can say much that wasn't already said about Cagney's performance. It's the first time i watch a movie with him, and he blew me away.
Besides that, loved the plot in general. The story always keeps moving forward and has some good turns. The relationship between Cody and Vic builds a little too fast, but that's a minor complaint. Mother was creepy as hell and i love that Patrick called this a secret gay film.

Can't really comment on Juice or how it compares. But i will, soon.
post #10 of 16

From my original White Heat Thread I created so long ago:

This movie is a gay romance between a psychopathic killer and an undercover cop. This much I am certain of.

After watching TCM's doc on the Warner Brother's gangster movies (Public Enemies, I believe it was called, very good), I decided to record this and Public Enemy. Sadly, Public Enemy didn't record properly, so this, the last hurrah of the golden era of the gangster film, ended up being the first one I ever watched. Films like this are always pretty dated because they're films about nasty violent men in a time where films weren't really allowed to be nasty and violent, but Cagney's performance is enough that it still works as a legitimately entertaining film. The only really unbearable part is the first act's big action setpiece, which consists of G-Men following around a little old lady in a car for what feels like 15 minutes. Dull. As. Hell.

What really interested me was the undercover cop plotline that begins in the second act, because it really does feel like a gay romance. Cody Jarret (Cagney), a outlandish and violent man who's utterly in love with his mother finds a matronly replacement in Vic Pardow, and undercover cop sent to be his cellmate. Vic is the only character in the film that Cody is affectionate towards, besides his mother. That includes his wife, who's shown to be a backstabbing, manipulative harpy who Cody has no real use for.

As stated in the documentary, many of these films feature a bond between two males, and a flippant disregard for women beyond objects used to show off the lead's charisma, but this film seems to take it further with the relationship between Vic and Cody. Vic, despite being an undercover cop, seems to even return this affection at times. At first this is obviously because he's trying to get in with Cody who is suspicious at best and at other times utterly paranoid.

But at the end of the second act, an episode sparked by news of his mother's death has landed Cody in a straitjacket, ready to be transferred to an asylum. But Vic helps Cody escape anyway, for no real reason other than that Cody asked him to. Admittedly this is more of a plot hole than a character choice, but throughout the film, even after he has established himself as Cody's second-in-command, he continues to look out for him, which seems to come from a place of genuine admiration. Plus, the film's use of pop Freudian psychology elsewhere in the film (Cody has spells, a trait he gets from his father, who died in an asylum) does lend itself to this sort of interpretation. Cody even explicitly states in one scene that his relationship with Vic is a replacement for the relationship he had with his mother, which, I believe, is Freudian for "I want to bang you".

As I stated earlier, these films are always dated to an extent because they're films about nasty and violent men in a time where films weren't allowed to be nasty and dirty. Well, the gay relationship between Cody and Vic works the same way. It's not explicit, but nothing of that sort could be in those films, but I definitely think there's something to it.
post #11 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quite an interesting read. While a lot of it rings true, you could also pinpoint the start of the Talking Cure gangster that would hit its peak with Tony Soprano.

Po-Mo Characters on the cusp of some great discovery, then realizing that they could pin all their faults and personal bullshit on someone else.

I feel that relates closer to Juice, but I'll wait for more people to catch up with that flick.
post #12 of 16
I just watched Juice. Very funny how it connected via them watching the film.

Liked it well enough. Even if Tupac's character kinda starts spiraling out of control a little too fast.
post #13 of 16
Thread Starter 
I didn't find it to be too fast, but it fit the film. The whole shebang between Q and Bishop has been done before. But, I felt that Tupac raised it a little further. Especially, when you take the context of Black Cinema at the time. This film came out a few months after Boyz N The Hood and it was the start of that new dynamic. Sure, the Hughes Brothers nailed it later with Menace 2 Society. The roots however started with Juice and it does almost feel like a harkening back to the complicated thug of the WB Golden Age.
post #14 of 16
I meant since they watch the film, they commit the robbery and he kills that guy and his best friend like nothing.

The opening of the show with everybody waking up in the different houses with the music reminded me a lot of Do The Right Thing
post #15 of 16
Thread Starter 
The director of Juice was the D.P. on "Do the Right Thing". He lifted a lot from Spike Lee, but he seems to have this rather laid back B-movie aesthetic about him.
post #16 of 16
Dickerson was Spike's go-to-guy on all his flicks up to and including Malcolm X, but after Juice did the likes of Demon Knight and Bulletproof. He does a lot of TV stuff these days, including an episode or two of The Wire.

Anyway, I always loved Juice, and Tupac gives one of the most electrifying debuts ever. He was severely pedestrian as a rapper, but his charisma was undeniable and he spreads it thick across the screen here. Subsequent flicks like Gridlock'd suggested that the sky was the limit for him as an actor.

It's a classic hip-hop flick too, from the brilliant title track by Eric B & Rakim down to the sight of EPMD propping up the bar that gets robbed. Also, Tupac's tragic latter-day career trajectory -spiralling out of control into an antagonistic 'gangsta' lifestyle that was at odds with his performing arts school background- only makes his performance as Bishop more haunting.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Films in Release or On Video
CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › Films in Release or On Video › DOOMED FROM THE START - July 2010 - WHITE HEAT and JUICE