Google meme of the day: funny or racist? - Page 3

I'm sorry to derail but I now picture Ripoll as a very nerdy Mick Jagger:

It's just some friends of mine that say,
"Hey, what's the matter man?
We're gonna come around at twelve
With some Puerto Rican girls that are just dyin' to meet you.
We're gonna bring a case of wine
Hey, let's go mess and fool around
You know, like we used to

Obviously if you call a gay man a faggot it's every bit as loaded and as offensive as calling a black person a nigger. My point was that there is actually another meaning to the word faggot, whereas nigger only has the one racist connotation attached to it.

ETA - Diva: You're right of course. Ultimately, it's wrong to use derogatory terms like that because of their specific connections. I linked the CK clip because I thought it was a better way to present that bit than Rock's version. Not because I thought that calling people faggots is okay.

A lot of interesting conversation going on here. This particular idea, though, which I've heard many times before, is something that has always bothered me. I don't believe "nigger," or any other slur should be thought of as "just words" with the power to harm only in certain situations or from the mouths of certain people. And I don't believe in the concept of "stripping the offensiveness" out of a word as being a legitimate solution to the problem, much less effective.

If a racist calls me a "nigger," I don't care how often I hear other people use it in a joking or ironic or chummy way, that racist still hates me and that hatred angers and saddens me. This is because it's not the word, it's the idea/attitude the word is meant to convey. That racist specifically used "nigger" because of the attitude associated with it and it's specific power to inflame hatred; he wouldn't have used the term "penguin" for instance. And no matter how playfully some people may use the term, it doesn't make that racist attack any less harmful. The same can be said with homophobes and the term "faggot."

Then CK is misguided. The reason some people use it to mean prissy, annoying, and cowardly is because those qualities were unfairly ascribed to homosexuals by people who feared and hated them. There's a reason people use the term "faggot" in place of just saying "prissy, annoying, etc," because they're making a correlation between those qualities and homosexuality. So, there's really no difference in calling someone a "faggot" because you're directly "attacking" their sexuality, or because you're ascribing these negative characteristics to them that have been unfairly associated with gays.

The reason you two were fine with this banter is not because the word had been stripped of its power. If a guy turned around and called your friend a "nigger" to his face, he'd probably be pissed off. What happened is you guys knew where each other was coming from, and in the context of your relationship, the attitude behind the term had changed. That doesn't change the attitude of others outside of that relationship though. If my friends and I jokingly called each other rag-heads, that wouldn't mean that it would be any less hurtful to someone outside of that circle if I upped and called them a rag-head one day, even if they knew the context in which my friends and I had used it. We have to be careful about assuming other people take the same attitude about the power of words and the ideas/attitudes behind them that we do.

Yes. That's exactly it... And, of course, it would have been completely different had I been the one calling him a nigger. We did a "role reversal" joke with the words and just turned them into stupid nicknames for each other.

And the reason I brought that up was precisely to illustrate how careful we have to be with terms and slurs. Obviously this "stripping of its power," as I called it, ONLY works in an insular context (an intimate circle of friends, for instance) and I was in no way suggesting that it applies to the word in general.

Good to see you back, Juice. You were kinda scarce there for a bit.

I will never understand the idea behind "reclaiming" racial slurs, honestly. I get the whole Lenny Bruce "use it until it has no power" thing, but that shit never works.

Then you're way ahead of many people, who unfortunately don't get the insular nature of blacks calling other blacks "nigger," gays calling other gays "faggot," etc.

Also, regardless of the context it's being used, those slurs can never truly be severed from their historical baggage. For instance, when a black guys calls another black guy "my nigger," there is that implicit understanding of the traditionally derogatory nature of the term (Though many older blacks don't believe younger generations understand the derogatory foundations of the term, they're wrong. Just try and call a young black person you don't know "my nigger" and observe the change in expression for proof of that.), but also an implicit acceptance of being the target of that term, and that acceptance comes from an understanding between the two that is built on 1) an established relationship between them, and 2) an understanding of the way in which the term is being manipulated. That's why not all blacks can just walk up to another black person and call them "my nigger" without the fear of offending them, and why some whites can use the term freely with their black friends and not feel guilty about it. There isn't an understanding that exists apart from those specific relationships that govern all use of the terms, that understanding has to be built from the inside. But many people try to ascribe their attitudes to everyone else, believing "if I'm cool with it, you should be."

Agreed. That shit never works. That's why I prefer just not using terms like "nigger," "faggot," etc. By not using it you're showing a sensitivity to others who may not be down with that reclaiming process, and you're not confusing the matter for others who don't understand the context in which it's used within some groups. And, it's then easier to point out racists when they're the only ones using those terms. It reminds me of the Don Imus "nappy-headed hos" incident where he tried to hide behind the seemingly common, ironic usage of those terms by young blacks to justify his own usage. The problem is, he was coming from a totally different attitude with his usage, one far outside the insular nature of how young black folks generally used the terms "nappy-headed" and "hos" with one another. Though, to be clear, I don't condone calling anyone a "ho" either. Well, maybe the occasional "crack whore" is acceptable...

Holy shit. I just noticed Koko B. Ware. NICE.

CK isn't giving the argument that we should use these words, he's exploring how we interact with these words. He goes into it in an old interview with The Sound of Young America, that he'd still never say the words "faggot" and "nigger" outside of his act, because it's too easy for people to misunderstand the context, and, as a decent human being, it's not his goal to offend and upset people.

I agree, however, that if you are going to talk academically and intellectually about the word "nigger", you should say the word, not "the n-word", as long as you aren't in a public place or a situation where someone can overhear you and get the wrong idea.

This is a little more iffy, but when I am singing along to rap songs, I will include the word "nigga" because I'm quoting someone, the same way I'd use the word "nigger" if I was reading a passage from Mark Twain. But again, if I'm with someone and I'm not sure if they'd be sensitive about that sort of thing or not, I leave it out.

In a couple weeks I'm performing a Del Tha Funkee Homosapien cover set, and I chose to replace the few instances where he says the word "nigga" with "wigga". I figure most people won't even notice, but I want to make sure that I don't needlessly upset people.

Basically, if you're going to offend someone, do it for a reason. There are a lot of things that people get upset about that are stupid, but I don't think racial issues in America even come close to qualifying.

That's good to know. I wanted to give him more credit than to try to justify the use of "faggot," but I've heard the term used all too casually by too many people who should know better.

I agree 100% with every statement here. I hate that when I'm discussing the term "nigger" with non-black friends they are reluctant to use it, even if they have questions/concerns about why some blacks use it so frequently. Part of the problem in dealing with the issue is that, in my opinion, we African-Americans have discovered a power in denying whites the use of the term - even in an academic discussion of ethnic and other slurs - that prevents an open and honest conversation. This power trip sometimes works against us all in that it keeps those non-blacks who would be receptive to looking at the issue on a deeper level from doing so openly, which is the only way to get to the root of it. Blacks could learn a lot from hearing the thoughts of whites on the issue, but when we prevent them from freely partaking in the discussion for fear of offending us, we shoot ourselves in the foot.

Damn, juice, great stuff today. I would give you the internet if I could.

Generally speaking, you're right. But there are some exceptions, "queer" being the first that comes to my mind. I don't know if it was ever quite as nasty-sounding a slur as "faggot," but it's been thoroughly embraced as shorthand for the LGBT community and institutionalized as a school of theory.

Although I can't imagine this ever happening with "nigger," because the dynamics of the reclamation have been so different (as you explained). It doesn't seem like the reclamation of "nigger" within the black community has ever been for the purposes of de-powering it outside of that community, but rather as a tool of inspiring greater unity within, while the reclamation of "queer" seems to have been both inward and outward-looking (or at least that's how it's worked out).

Dunno if you guys have been following Louis CK's new show on FX, but there's a scenes with his comedian buddies playing poker (one is gay), making liberal use of the word "faggot." It's mined for laughs, makes no bones about it, but there's a great little moment where he completely gives the floor to the gay comedian. I've seen this guy live (he usually is MCing at the Comedy Cellar in NY), and you'd never know he was gay from his stand-up material, but in the Louis' show he completely gives the dude the floor for a minute as he explains what "faggot" means to the gay community. It's a pretty great scene. Then they go back to calling him faggot.

It was such a sucker punch of a scene, and it really speaks to what dajuice is saying about not being afraid of having an open conversation about it.

I see your argument, and I agree for the most part. I think the difference between "queer" and "faggot" is that "faggot," when used in reference to homosexuality, seems primarily to have been used as a slur, whereas "queer," (at least in my experience hearing/seeing people use it) while also used as a slur, seems to also have been commonly used as a poor alternative to descriptors such as gay or homosexual by ill-informed people who also tend to call blacks "colored," mixed-raced people "mulattoes," and Asian "orientals." They're naive and certainly behind the times, but their vocabulary reflects that naivete as much as any (sub)conscious racism/homophobia. So, while the reclamation of "queer" certainly has its basis in tempering the venom associated with the word and the attitudes behind it, it could also be just as much a commentary on the cluelessness of those who don't understand the subtleties of sexuality and gender identification and therefore feel threatened by it.

I think what I'm arguing is that "queer" is more analogous to "colored," and "faggot" to nigger. I think there's a degree of difference in meaning and context that influences our relationship to them.

You're right here in that there never really seemed to exist a concerted effort within the black community specifically to de-power the word, it's just a theory by some that its power to harm would subsequently be diminished by its ironic use within the black community; and of course some latched on to this idea and actually advocated for the use of nigger in this fashion. I think this was wishful thinking at best, as some will always feel the sting of the word's original intent too deeply to use it or accept its use in any way. But you point out some great subtleties inherent to this issue that illustrate exactly why it's so difficult to hash out any solutions.

For instance, to bring it back to the Chicken Dance clip Diva pointed out, I wasn't particularly offended by it. But she was, and I'm sure many others were also and I respect that reaction; in fact that imagery's ability to offend hurts me knowing the history behind the association between blacks and fried chicken. I have to imagine this has more to do with just the specific image of a black man dancing and eating fried chicken, like who we think the intended audience is, who created the image, what the original context of the image was, etc. The issue runs so deep that it's a chore just to identify to various aspects that come into play (authorship, perspective, symbology, stereotyping...). No doubt there is a history of fried food that comes out of the African-American experience, and the corruption of that history, turning that association into something derogatory is certainly interesting to say the least. So, to me, the offense would have been in the authorship - who created the image - and the context. For others, those aspects are of no consequence. It's a difficult issue. But the discussion in this thread is leagues better than what you could typically expect from the internet.

That was amazing. And, I can see how some would misinterpret the point of that segment, just as Dave Chappelle expressed concern about the misinterpretation of his material. More than any clip I've seen from CK's show to date, this makes me want to watch.

Thanks for posting that clip Phil. I'll take all the Louis CK I can get right now. I hope that show starts airing here soon.

...

The discussion here has been wonderful, by the way.

Talking about words having different meanings... There is a widely used term here - cholo. It's usually a derogative way to refer to a person of indigenous descent. The interesting thing is that, although the term is considered offensive, indigenous people who adopt the traditional dress...



They are referred to as cholitas and that's not considered offensive.

I've always found that strange. They get much more offended if you call them "indios."

President Evo Morales actually outlawed its use in public. If you are caught calling an indigenous person an "indio," you have to pay a fine.

The term cholo is also technically outlawed. But the problem is that it has a more extensive meaning. It can simply mean a vulgar, tacky person. That is to say, you can have blond hair and blue eyes and still be a cholo.

Just a little bit of Bolivian culture that I wanted to share.

Along with all the other good points addressed here, they're just ugly-sounding words and probably would be even if you heard them without knowing what they meant.

Nigger. Faggot. Bitch. Cunt. They're all very blunt-force objects in the way they sound. They're meant to do damage.

Though I think it was Samuel L. Jackson who said that "nigga" (as said between black people) sounds better than "nigger" because that "er" sound just has that racist knife-twist to it. Not holding him up as Official Black Spokesman, just saying ... y'know, there seem to be no melodious-sounding hate words. Even the Yiddish slur for blacks, schvartzer, hits the ear ugly.

Back in junior high, someone shouted 'fag' or 'faggot' during an assembly for some reason. It became a big deal at the school and resulted in one of my teachers, Mrs. Aquino, really sitting us down and talking about how hateful a word it is. I mean, she was PISSED. And she explained to us exactly as the comedian in Phil's link did. Looking back, she was one of my favorite teachers. Her words have stuck with me all this time. I refuse to use that word the same way I refuse to use 'nigger.'

This has been a great thread, by the way. Additional thanks for that link about Chappelle.

My pleasure, guys.

Cunt must be an American thing, it's not got nearly as much power as a term in the UK.

Cunt is pretty hectic down here too. Weirdly, "nigger" is a term that wasn't really known down here until it became popularised in films. The SA word has always been "kaffir" but now that word is fucking toxic. NOONE uses it apart from the staunch Afrikaner racists.

It's the harshest swearword, but it gets a lot more casual/comedy/media use than it seems to in the states. I reckon it sounds much better said in british accents anyhow. It sounds kind of odd when americans say it, probably cos they tend to soften their 't's.

Still waiting for Fat Elvis to demonstrate his encyclopaedic knowledge of every intricacy of South African racial prejudice. For the record I'm from the UK and the only reason I knew about the fried-chicken/watermelon racist stereotype is because I read about it in passing on a forum like this a few years ago, and even then I needed to have the 'logic' behind it explained cos it wasn't immediately obvious. I mean, it's not as if it gets a whole lot of exposure on american exports, so what reason would non-americans have for knowing about it?

Incidentally Afrikaans swearwords are super cool. Jou naaier, fokken poes!!

Yeah, you guys fucked up that word through over-use. You can't imagine how nice it is to have a word in your back pocket that can still cause physical repulsion.

I'm not trying to prove anything nor show off.

My original point is that there is a unique relationship between Africa and the United States; and with South Africa especially, there is a shared history of some of the worst systematic racism ever seen.

For teenagers, I guess it's good that various stereotypes have fallen away, but for those of us in mid twenties thru thirties, we can't know where we are, if we don't know what has been overcome.

We chewers like to consider ourselves the best and the brightest. Let's be seekers whenever possible (even a precursory journey thru/ examination of Black History/literature would have revealed the particular stereotype/slur that begat this thread) and unlike some other sites, let's celebrate what is beautiful about Black culture, and not ridicule what is different.

<I can't be the only one who gets uncomfortable when they see memes passed around like the skinny black kid getting bug-eyed with fear/surprise. Like what had bothered Chappelle, that's laughing at, not with. One step above Sambo/pickinee knick-knacks. And yes, of course, Lil Jon meme=lawn jockey>

Good on you for not rising to my snark, but my point was just that I doubt anyone would suggest you were being wilfully ignorant if you failed to pick up on some quite obscure racial stereotype that's specific to South African culture and history. You still seem to be doing that for the reverse situation. I'm not convinced this american fried chicken thing is something everyone in the world should be expected to know.

I would be shocked if anyone outside of Canada knew the derogatory stereotypes of Aboriginal people. I would certainly never expect it from the US just because we share a history of systemic destruction of their culture.

People outside the US are not immediately familiar with the American racial stereotypes.

Let me give you an example... And I am only posting this for demonstration purposes, so I don't mean to offend anyone.

There is a very popular Mexican comic book character named Memin. Here is a cover of one of the comics...



He is a schoolboy who lives in Mexico City with his kindly aunt and gets into all kinds of adventures. Here's a couple of panels.



When I first saw this comic book in a newsstand, I did a double take - to say the LEAST. It's been around for years. My dad, in fact, grew up reading it. I got curious and picked up a comic and read it myself. The adventures contained within are charming, funny and he's an endearing hero. Also, there is often a positive message about friendship and companionship. Even the subject of racism has been tackled in the comic. Making it evident that Memin is meant to be a positive role model for kids of all races. But, clearly, the blatant offensiveness of his depiction was lost on the comic's creators. Considering that the comic still exists - far as I know. I chalk that up to ignorance.

Like when I watched Ghost World with an ex-girlfriend. I had to spend a few minutes explaining why that fast food artwork is racist. She understood after I had explained it to her. But, given that she grew up in Latin America, and had seen caricatures like that her whole life - it didn't dawn on her that it could be racist.

Furthermore... There is not a large black community in Bolivia. Even less in La Paz. But the few slaves that survived the trip down here settled in a region called Yungas - it's a tropical valley South of the city. Naturally, they came up with their own folklore by fusing traditional Andean customs with their own African traditions and it's wonderful.

One of the most popular Bolivian folk dances is called The Saya. It's the celebratory dance of the people of Yungas. But... Here's the thing. When this dance is performed by kids in schools, it is often done in blackface. My daughter had to do it in her kindergarten. I had some words with the teacher and made it very clear that I would be livid if I saw my daughter in blackface. And so I was spared that indignity...

But I don't necessarily take them to task. Because I know it comes from ignorance rather than prejudice or hatred. If they would read up on it, they would know. But it just isn't something people are aware of down here. And, if even the Black community of Yungas doesn't take offense, what then?

I love cunt. It's my favorite curse word. But I've always been very "British" in my use of it.

That immediately reminded me of this (which someone may have pointed out here on the CHUD boards a while ago)...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/m...ntroversy.html

These Australian guys obviously didn't mean to offend, and had no idea that performing as the Jackson 5 in blackface would elicit such a response from Connick Jr. It's still a little jarring that blackface, with such a controversial history here in the States, is practiced so widely without anything even approaching the taboo nature that it has here. But this supports the idea that stereotypes, racists imagery, etc can be pretty specific to one region/nation, or have a completely different significance in another culture. While it's looked down upon here, in Japan or Mexico or the UK it could just be another comedic device or way of playing "dress up."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#Mexico The Memin character is referenced here also under Modern day manifestations: Mexico. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mem%C3%ADn_Pingu%C3%ADn

In light of this, I could easily see someone overseas being baffled by the KFC chicken dancing clip causing so much controversy. However, there is a part of me that feels a lack of cultural familiarity isn't reason enough to condone its use. Obviously those Australian guys needed to be made aware of the significance of blackface, and its power to harm. Sometimes we can absorb imagery and language without even knowing the roots behind it, even something as seemingly obvious as painting your face black, throwing on an afro wig, etc.

It really is, Diva. And that's sort of what I'm getting at. If they can't see how THAT is racist, then cultural references are even more obscure.

There is actually a lot of ignorance when it comes to racial stereotyping and sensitivity to other cultures. It goes on all over Latin America, but I can really only use Bolivia as an example because I live here.

The thing about Memin is this: The comic was actually created in the late 40s, when you could say that this mammy/pickaninny iconography was unfortunately more commonplace. What I find shocking is that, as time went by and the comic remained in print, why were the character designs not altered in any way? Obviously, if this comic were widely distributed (like Condorito) in the US, we would have a huge uproar. But I find it a bit odd that the Black community in Mexico have never done anything about it.

And that brings me back to the kids dancing in blackface as a representation of the Afro-Bolivian folklore. I know they don't actually do it as a way of ridiculing. I know they don't consciously mean any harm. But it's that sort of backwards thinking that prevents a proper social education. And this is indispensable in countries like Bolivia, that are so deeply rooted in widespread cultural prejudices.

Even here in the States pickaninny and mammy imagery continues to exist in items such as figurines, dolls, containers, etc to this day. Many of these items are considered collectibles. And many people, even some blacks(!), don't have the first clue as to their origins.

http://www.authentichistory.com/dive...n/caricatures/

As well as in our breakfast foods...


Hasn't really changed all that much.

Your points are well-taken, but to compare the USA's brand of racism (as dealing with those of African decent, natch) to SA's is like comparing apples to pomegranates. Americans imported their Africans from European slave traders abetted by indigenous African tribes and nations. What developed thusly is an uniquely American cultural phenomenon, whatwith the Mason-Dixon line, Civil War, Emancipation Proclamation, Jim Crow laws, segregation, etc. Whereas the South African legacy deals with two distinct European cultures colonialistically landgrabbing from an indigenous African population and its resultant history including Apartheid. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying one history is better or more righteous than the other, plus any South Africans I have met, regardless of race, have been stand-up individuals refreshingly lacking in some of the je ne sais quois Europretentiousness - but the 20th Century brand of SA racism is more akin to the 19th century USA racism against them dangt, redskin, Injuns. Of course the analogy can not be total as Europeans and Americans almost eradicated Native Americans while South Africans merely segregated the aboriginals.

Old ads in the South were so unbelievably racist that it wasn't even funny. I remember seeing tons of old tin signs with the pickaninny stereotype character on them whenever I'd go to a flea market. And those fucking things actually SOLD.

Why would you get uncomfortable though if the context isn't racist? Can't it just be a funny looking bug-eyed kid who happens to be black? (note: I'm not familiar with this particular meme)

ETA: removed

Wow... That's pretty amazing. I was unfamiliar with the "coon" and "brute" types. At least by name. I found those to be particularly disgusting. I would be appalled to know of someone who collects these things outside of some historical archival purpose.

ETA - Joeypants: Like a historical curio, I could see why someone might want to have this. Like Steve Buscemi's character in Ghost World. But if someone were to find it "funny," I'd want to understand what about it is funny exactly. And if someone had tons of that imagery just on display in their home, I'd definitely wonder why.

I think this climate of racism is similar to what goes on here. With the indigenous population that actually outnumbers the whites and mestizos who shun them.

I've had conversations where it's either escalated to a heated argument or I've respectfully asked to be excused... But a common attitude is: "We should have done what they did in the US, Argentina and Chile... They wiped them all out. Because they're an impediment to progress." It's this attitude that it's the race itself that's at fault... Like someone who actually tried to convince me that this "idiocy" had been ingrained into the indigenous people GENETICALLY as part of their evolution. After laughing at him for 10 minutes, I asked him to leave and go read up on genetics and sociology on his way home.

There actually isn't any blatant discrimination against blacks. Only that passive racism based on ignorance that I mentioned before. But the indigenous people actually find a kinship with the urban black attitudes of the US. Hip Hop is very popular with the indigenous people... The have their own brand of Andean hip hop and street rapping. It's interesting.

But it's also contradictory... Because another very popular type of music with indigenous people is heavy metal... death, black metal, goth... which is primarily enjoyed by whites in the US and Europe. I've always found those two extremes to be an interesting cultural contradiction.

Or does that make sense to anyone here?

I don't and wouldn't want any of that imagery myself. But the only people I know who do have it laugh at it in the same way I do: look at this ridiculous shit that we, as a society, used to produce. More of a "can you believe it?" laughter than anything else.

But even still... there's a volume where it just becomes weird unless you're like a southern culture expert or something. Which this woman is not.

Well, the appeal of hip hop is the more obvious one. In one sense, it has roots in being a sort of "people's music," which I think would resonate deeply with poor indigenous communities; in another sense, it's simply too big and influential a style to ignore from a commercial standpoint.

Metal doesn't get the commercial push that hip-hop does here, but it's angry, rebellious music. This stuff will always go over with a certain younger demographic (and metal's flashier than, say, hardcore punk, so I can see how that might travel better). Aside from some very general qualities and vague historical similarity in disenfranchisement, etc., I imagine the indigenous communities in Bolivia have about as much in common with the African-American communities that originally produced hip-hop as they do with the white communities who produce metal (U.S., British, Scandinavian, or otherwise). I'm not sure that either type of music would be significantly more relevant from a social standpoint, so it makes sense that these communities would just take what sounds good to them.

Although I imagine that, as with any youth subculture, a lot of the metal fans aren't big hip-hop fans and vice-versa.

Some of that shit is historically fascinating, and without people who hold onto it, Spike Lee wouldn't have had half his horror-producing props for Bamboozled.

Wasn't Disney at one point actually thinking about putting out Song of the South with a context-providing intro by either Bill Cosby or Whoopi Goldberg? And of course it's important to not destroy those old racist cartoons, as long as there's that context provided. (I'm 40, which means I was a kid in the '70s, and they used to show the Tom & Jerry cartoons with the stereotyped mammy character. Nowadays they've recolored her skin and redubbed her voice. Weirdly, I didn't grow up thinking all black women were like that.)

A friend of my mother's collects the racist knick knacks and curios claiming that she's embracing the pain and destroying the power that comes from them. I think she's watched one too many episodes of A Different World.

This whole conversation reminds of when I was working for the Government of BC and having to turn down an Austrian business owner's application for funding to hire a student because of the name of his restaurant, Steppin' Fetchit. He couldn't understand why the name would be considered racist or why the BC government would not want to support a seemingly racist restaurant.

For those who don't care about soccer (like me!), Spain, the team with fans that pelt bananas and make ape calls at black players, won the World Cup. So yeah, fuck those fans.

Aside from what seems to just be the UK, is racism ever going to be taboo in Europe?

Well that I can certainly understand.

That makes a lot of sense. Punk hasn't been embraced here as it has in, say, Argentina. In Argentina, The Casualties play huge arenas and stadiums, by the way. And it's probably because people here generally think that stuff like Blink 182 and even current Green Day is punk. If they would be exposed to some of the real stuff, I believe there would be a strong punk movement here too. And I'd be curious to see what segment of the population would connect with it the most.

Heavy Metal of both the dexterous Iron Maiden and the more raw Cradle Of Filth variety has been very embraced. And I think it's pretty much for the reasons you say.

But Hip Hop ultimately has the largest audience and is considered the most underground of the two. A good friend of mine has produced 20 Hip Hop albums in the last 10 years. And he recently released a compilation. In the spirit of the people, he priced it ultra-cheap and it's basically all 20 albums collected in an mp3 disc with a retrospective booklet. In essence, he pirated his own shit. He's not indigenous. But he has been working with street kids from the shanty towns for years and very involved in all the social movements here. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says because he blindly supports Evo. But it's things like that where I get hopeful that there can eventually be an avenue for real change in this country. If people with a real positive influence actually get to work with the communities and allow them to voice their frustrations in a productive way. Instead of just taking advantage of their natural resentments and breeding more hatred.

A fair chunk of Americans probably think that Green Day is the epitome of punk rock, too.

Total speculation up ahead:

Well, I think hip hop offers some things to working class youth that punk never could. There's even less of a learning curve (at least to pull it off moderately well), since you don't need to know so much as a power chord or a 4/4 drum beat. But, even more importantly, you don't need to put together a group of people with the money to buy instruments. It really just requires a good vocabulary and delivery, a good music collection to build from, and maybe a one-time investment in a turntable or sampler (or maybe you just need to know a guy who knows a guy with one...).

So I can see how hip hop appeals on the DIY level*. As far as the aggression level, why go for punk when there are metal bands who play just as loud and better? Some critics considered early hip hop to be the black version of punk. Since the racial dynamics that inform hip hop, punk, and metal in the U.S. are so different in various countries, I wonder if hip hop and metal have just sort of displaced punk as an interesting means of rebellion in Bolivia by embodying its various appealing traits in different ways.


* Notably, hip hop and other sample-based music (for instance, tecno brega in Brazil) make for better musics of the proletariat in nations with less restrictive or less enforced copyright law. In the U.S., you need to clear those samples before you can sell anything, which means hip hop (or at least hip hop with samples) isn't exactly a great means for a poor musician to spread his message through any wide commercial channels.