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BART Cop Trial; Verdict & Reaction in Oakland

post #1 of 58
7/9/10 at 1:40am
Thread Starter 
So at 4PM today an LA jury announced that Officer Mehserle, the BART cop who shot Oscar Grant, was guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

Around 2PM they announced the verdict would be read at 4PM: A panicked exodus began from downtown Oakland and businesses began boarding up their windows and doors.

I'm typing this at 9:37 PM PT and the live radio feed indicates there is violence going on...as in an "explosion" in downtown Oakland (probably fireworks: there is a huge echo effect in the downtown area around the Police Station).

So far I've heard there was a Footlocker that got looted and a lot of arrest..also BART shut down the Oakland stations....


And here is the local news feed: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...BAM21EBDOD.DTL
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post #2 of 58
7/9/10 at 3:39am
Is this the one were the cop 'though he had his taser in his hand' and shot that guy they had lying on the pavement? I'm not a lawyer but involuntary manslaughter does seem a bit lenient. But I don't know if you could go all the way to murder for this. Is there anything in between?
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post #3 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:27am
There's straight manslaughter, for starters.
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post #4 of 58
7/9/10 at 11:19am
I've been closely following this story for over a year now. While awaiting the verdict, the officers were on "leave" and not locked in jail as murderers. Whenever CNN would report on the story (which was virtually never), they'd refer to it as "a police officer shooting an unarmed black man". They'd NEVER mention that the "man" was a handcuffed teenager laying prone on the ground who had been restrained for almost five minutes before he was shot dead.


Now it comes out to be "involuntary manslaughter". Wow... time for some law enforcement reform. There is nothing "involuntary" about pulling out your pistol and executing a man in cold blood. The guy was restrained, and had been for over 5 minutes by the time he was shot. The "I was going for my taser and just got plum confused!" defense is a lie that should be offensive to every free thinking person.

This verdict disgusts me
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post #5 of 58
7/9/10 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
There's straight manslaughter, for starters.
The weird line is that by the verdict the jury believed that the cop meant to pull his taser and that a taser doesn't cause "serious bodily harm", which knocks it out of Voluntary Manslaughter.

Or more likely they just felt like Voluntary Manslaughter was too much.

For sentencing (from what I quickly looked up) Voluntary Manslaughter has a 3 - 11 year range, while Involuntary only has 2 - 4. This guy was probably only getting 5 years under Voluntary. I'll guess he gets 4, with part of it suspended.
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post #6 of 58
7/9/10 at 11:53am
Unbelievable.
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post #7 of 58
7/9/10 at 1:36pm
BTW, I do not support looting a FOOTLOCKER. That's thievery disguised as protest. How about protesting the institutions responsible for the murder and the cover up??
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post #8 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcassady View Post
The weird line is that by the verdict the jury believed that the cop meant to pull his taser and that a taser doesn't cause "serious bodily harm", which knocks it out of Voluntary Manslaughter.

Or more likely they just felt like Voluntary Manslaughter was too much.

For sentencing (from what I quickly looked up) Voluntary Manslaughter has a 3 - 11 year range, while Involuntary only has 2 - 4. This guy was probably only getting 5 years under Voluntary. I'll guess he gets 4, with part of it suspended.
Apparently that's not the only charge. He faces another 3 to 10 for using a gun for the crime.
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post #9 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:26pm
Fuck you, LA justice system!

This Op Ed video is spot on.

Preach brother!

Quote:
Justice is rooted in fairness. This verdict specifically, and the system of criminal justice and law enforcement we've created in this country, isn't fair.

And it's not justice.
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post #10 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:38pm
Sigh. When will people learn that rioting in the streets, and especially FUCKING LOOTING doesn't do anything but set things back, or at least keep them where they are?

You've got to rise above that shit.
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post #11 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:39pm
Of course! But at the same time when you're frustrated and essentially powerless, I can understand. I don't condone it, but I can see why.
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post #12 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Of course! But at the same time when you're frustrated and essentially powerless, I can understand. I don't condone it, but I can see why.
Totally. But it's like, they're doing it because they're angry, and if you extrapolate that, they're angry because they want things to be different.

It's just sad that when shit like this happens, business owners are like, "whelp... let's board up the windows and doors. We know what's coming." And they're not wrong. That's the sad part.
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post #13 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:43pm
I saw on the news that they interviewed some of the people there. Evidently, if that's the type of justice you mete out, they're going to burn shit down.

Cause I guess that's the way to progress. To be fair, there were others saying that they came to protest peacefully, and now because of a bunch of knuckleheads they're going to be seen as animals.
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post #14 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:46pm
I can understand it, too, but MLK never led riots. eta: it probably just is a handful of idiots looking for an excuse.

This verdict is a complete cop out, no pun intended.
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post #15 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:47pm
Have you guys seen Do the Right Thing? Sometimes you feel so helpless and out of control, smashing shit is all you can do. At least they are destroying property and not killing people. It sucks, but this is what happens when justice only works for some people. Folks saying looting is not progress miss the point. The fucking justice system needs to progress. Until that happens, people will not seek redress through a system that is rigged against them.

ETA: MLK gets a lot of credit and historical recognition from the mainstream (read White people) because he preached non-violence. But the Civil Rights Movement was successful due to a lot of people's efforts. And its a misreading of history to say that riots were not part of that story.
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post #16 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:50pm
I've never been a riot advocate, but fuck if reading that news doesn't make me want to start throwing shit at LA city hall.
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post #17 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:50pm
Justice system is really screwed up if you ask me.
I honestly think the free pasees pedophiles get all the time is almost worse then what happened here.
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post #18 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
Totally. But it's like, they're doing it because they're angry, and if you extrapolate that, they're angry because they want things to be different.

It's just sad that when shit like this happens, business owners are like, "whelp... let's board up the windows and doors. We know what's coming." And they're not wrong. That's the sad part.
Yes! Only happy looting from now on!

And this sucks.
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post #19 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickP View Post
I honestly think the free pasees pedophiles get all the time is almost worse then what happened here.
Wait....what?
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post #20 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:55pm
Yeah, that's not even...no.
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post #21 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Have you guys seen Do the Right Thing? Sometimes you feel so helpless and out of control, smashing shit is all you can do. At least they are destroying property and not killing people. It sucks, but this is what happens when justice only works for some people. Folks saying looting is not progress miss the point. The fucking justice system needs to progress. Until that happens, people will not seek redress through a system that is rigged against them.

ETA: MLK gets a lot of credit and historical recognition from the mainstream (read White people) because he preached non-violence. But the Civil Rights Movement was successful due to a lot of people's efforts. And its a misreading of history to say that riots were not part of that story.
That's all well and good, but it's not helping their cause, and that should be the main issue at hand here.

Rioting is giving in to the baser instinct, and it only reinforces the prejudiced that cops like the dicksucker in question rely on to justify their actions.

Be the bigger man, turn the other cheek, and all that feel-good hippy shit.


Also:
Quote:
At least they are destroying property and not killing people.
Come on. Don't be that gal.
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post #22 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:57pm
I think we can safely call Nick P our most issue laden new Chewer.

Also back on topic. Innocent person, getting shot, not good. Racism endemic in system, needs to change, setting fire to shit and stealing hi-fis, understandable but still troublesome.
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post #23 of 58
7/9/10 at 4:59pm
Rioting is supposed to be troublesome. It is laughable that people are supposed to turn the other check and be the bigger person when they get fucked over again and again. This is not an isolated incident. At some point, people reach their breaking point. It baffles me that someone can't understand why rioting happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
That's all well and good, but it's not helping their cause, and that should be the main issue at hand here.

Rioting is giving in to the baser instinct, and it only reinforces the prejudiced that cops like the dicksucker in question rely on to justify their actions.
This is seriously some blame the victim stuff. Black people are already being unfairly targeted. Rioting is not going to change that one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
Come on. Don't be that gal.
Huh? There are many people who preach an eye for an eye. A Black man was murdered. Supporters could easily retaliate by killing for revenge. Thank god they are "big enough" not to.
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post #24 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Have you guys seen Do the Right Thing? Sometimes you feel so helpless and out of control, smashing shit is all you can do. At least they are destroying property and not killing people. It sucks, but this is what happens when justice only works for some people. Folks saying looting is not progress miss the point. The fucking justice system needs to progress. Until that happens, people of color will not seek redress through a system that is rigged against them.

ETA: MLK gets a lot of credit and historical recognition from the mainstream (read White people) because he preached non-violence. But the Civil Rights Movement was successful due to a lot of people's efforts. And its a misreading of history to say that riots were not part of that story.
I smell a massive derail, but...
So shit begets shit, and therefore it's okay? Injustice + injustice (because that's what vandalism is... it's not like they trash Wallmarts) = justice? I'd like for people to not throw their hands in the air and say "fuck it" because that's pretty much admitting defeat, or at the least giving up hope for change.
It's like that stupid Sublime song about the Rodney King riots that talks about them stealing a bunch of band equipment and then is like "it's about the fucked up police, man!"
I will agree that riots like these are a definitive symptom, and sometimes a sort of birthing pain.
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post #25 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Rioting is supposed to be troublesome. It is laughable that people are supposed to turn the other check and be the bigger person when they get fucked over again and again. This is not an isolated incident. At some point, people reach their breaking point. It baffles me that someone can't understand why rioting happens.



This is seriously some blame the victim stuff. Black people are already being unfairly targeted. Rioting is not going to change that one way or the other.



Huh? There are many people who preach an eye for an eye. A Black man was murdered. Supporters could easily retaliate by killing for revenge. Thank god they are "big enough" not to.

A) I never said I didn't understand why they're rioting.

B) It IS fucked up. End of story. Damaging property isn't doing anyone any good at all.

So what, we're all supposed to fall down and just be THANKFUL they're ONLY rioting? Think about what you're advocating here.

ETA: I mean really, what's the answer/outcome here? Police stop treating black people unfairly because if they don't, we'll just get more riots?
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post #26 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
I think we can safely call Nick P our most issue laden new Chewer.

Also back on topic. Innocent person, getting shot, not good. Racism endemic in system, needs to change, setting fire to shit and stealing hi-fis, understandable but still troublesome.
i'm not trying to act like this isn't something major, but watch the news. Our whole justice system is screwed up. I got a letter in the mail, that a pedophile is moving within 5 miles of my place. This guy raped a 8 year old girl, and serves only 3 years in prison. Drug dealers get more then that. But I don't see riots for that?
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post #27 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
So what, we're all supposed to fall down and just be THANKFUL they're ONLY rioting? Think about what you're advocating here.
The "riots" everyone (and especially FOX news) are playing up are a very small portion of the demonstrations, the majority of which are peaceful, and, if it's anything like the incidents in 2009, it'll turn out that most of those arrested aren't even from Oakland.

Condemn the riots all you like, but give props to the much larger crowds who are being peaceful protestors.
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post #28 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:13pm
To quote Chris Rock, I ain't saying its right, but I understand. I'm just responding to the few of you whom seem to think that rioting somehow sets the cause back. It doesn't. It brings attention to it, it shows that people are angry and aren't gonna take it any more, and sometimes it brings about real civil change. I'm sorry, but if you advocate for people who have been denied basic human rights to just turn the other cheek, I'll say fuck you. That's it. I'm not advocating rioting, but I'm sure as heck not advocating laying down and getting fucked over again and again either. And that's the vibe I get from some responses in here.
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post #29 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickP View Post
i'm not trying to act like this isn't something major, but watch the news. Our whole justice system is screwed up. I got a letter in the mail, that a pedophile is moving within 5 miles of my place. This guy raped a 8 year old girl, and serves only 3 years in prison. Drug dealers get more then that. But I don't see riots for that?
Maybe because pedophiles are considered social pariahs that have their lives turned into a living Hell by laws concerning how and where they conduct their lives outside of prison--provided they survive prison--and their plight in no way points to endemic prejudice towards a non-criminal class of citizens?

When a white station police officer shoots a black guy in public after he's been subdued and gets away with a light sentence, it kind of reeks of injustice, especially when the book is always thrown at the black guy in the reverse situation even when the circumstances are much murkier.
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post #30 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:15pm
Jesus Christ. I sure as fuck didn't say "lay down and take it."

By "turn the other cheek," I just meant don't fight their violence with more violence. It's retarded (if also understandable).

It ALSO gives a lot of these racists cops just what they love: a good excuse to beat on a black guy. And THIS time, no one can say that force isn't justified. Because they're rioting violently and destroying the property of people who arguably have no stake in this. And THAT does set the cause back.

Negative attention like that isn't necessarily good attention.
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post #31 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:18pm
From the CNN article:

Quote:
At the high point of the protests about 8 p.m. (11 p.m. ET), there were an estimated 800 people in the streets, Oakland Police Chief Anthony Batts said.

By 10:30 p.m, there were about 75 left, Batts said.

The protests were contained to the downtown area, police said.

Police tell CNN they are still collecting information on the total number of businesses that were vandalized.

Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums downplayed the demonstrations.

"People were preparing for everything to explode, but I am extremely happy that so far it has not, and I hope that it doesn't," Dellums said. "We're not going to tear our own community apart, because we've got issues that we've got to deal with."

I've seen more mayhem after college football games.
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post #32 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
I think we can safely call Nick P our most issue laden new Chewer.
Easily, but he's still got some work to do if he wants to catch up with savvy vets like Cuchulain.

Quote:
Also back on topic. Innocent person, getting shot, not good. Racism endemic in system, needs to change, setting fire to shit and stealing hi-fis, understandable but still troublesome.
Jesus, Spike, it's not like I didn't have enough trouble reading your posts without hearing this guy:

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post #33 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:20pm
Reports now are that a majority of the 'rioters' came in from out of town, pretty much looking to loot.

Quoting a friend who drove home through the Bad Area last night, "Last night doesn't say much about Oakland, or even about anarchists. It just says some people are dicks."
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post #34 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
From the CNN article:




I've seen more mayhem after college football games.
Well then that's really good to hear. And THAT sort of result will get a lot more positive attention on this matter.

I'd like to think that if there's one thing people of all races could rally around, it's the fact that power hungry fucking cops need to be stopped. Tasers have really amped up that mentality in the last few years.
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post #35 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
Easily, but he's still got some work to do if he wants to catch up with savvy vets like Cuchulain.
You know, in my three years here, I've made one rape joke. One. In the last two days, this guy has made at least ten. Don't compare me to this guy.
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post #36 of 58
7/9/10 at 5:48pm
Currently, blasting NWA's "Fuck Da Police".

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
Negative attention like that isn't necessarily good attention.
Well, we agree to disagree. Mainstream America only pays attention when White people are victims. A Black man getting murdered doesn't warrant national attention. Property being looted = headline news.
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post #37 of 58
7/9/10 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Property being looted = headline news.
Right, but WHO are you trying to reach with that headline news? And what do you think that image does to those people?
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post #38 of 58
7/9/10 at 6:23pm
So it's Amidou Diallo all over again.

Fuck this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickP View Post
I honestly think the free pasees pedophiles get all the time is almost worse then what happened here.
This doesn't make a lot of sense. A crime is a crime. Please explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
Rioting is supposed to be troublesome. It is laughable that people are supposed to turn the other check and be the bigger person when they get fucked over again and again. This is not an isolated incident. At some point, people reach their breaking point. It baffles me that someone can't understand why rioting happens.
Just want to say that, like you, I'm not condoning rioting or violent action of any kind. But I completely agree.
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post #39 of 58
7/9/10 at 7:10pm
To stay on topic, see above: The unpleasantness last night in Oakland was not nearly rioting on the level of the response to the King verdict, nor activism on the level of the response to the Diallo case. As much as the folks who smashed windows and made off with free stuff would like you to think it was.

The very important detail to observe here is that, for the first time I can remember, a police officer was successfully prosecuted for causing a death. And you folks who aren't from around here may need to read up but the fact that it was a BART cop is just as significant.
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post #40 of 58
7/9/10 at 7:30pm
Diva,

My problem was with stealing stuff from *FOOTLOCKER* . Anger towards *FOOTLOCKER* makes no sense, and using this horrible injustice as an excuse to steal sneakers is NOT understandable. The people who are responsible for this injustice do not work at FOOTLOCKER, and you're betraying everyone who hopes to change the system by allowing their voices to be branded as belonging to criminals thanks to your petty thievery. Pretending that theft from private businesses is an understandable or logical action is absurd, and making excuses for cowards who are helping those who tow the thin blue line is morally wrong. I am not saying people don't have a right to be angry and take to the streets, they just don't have a right to be angry at FOOTLOCKER and fuck up FOOTLOCKER stores.
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post #41 of 58
7/9/10 at 7:57pm
Upon further reflection, I might be able to make concessions if they rioted and tried to tear down the courthouse. Now THAT'S a gesture with some aim behind it.
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post #42 of 58
7/9/10 at 7:58pm
But, joey, it was a *FOOTLOCKER*!
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post #43 of 58
7/9/10 at 8:00pm
What was the guy charged with? I admit to being slightly ignorant to how the process works, but don't you have to be charged with murder or manslaughter to be convicted of it?

Was there ever even a chance at this stage that he could've been convicted of anything else?
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post #44 of 58
7/9/10 at 8:13pm
It seems like he was convicted of two crimes, or one and a modifier. First was involuntary manslaughter, with extra years for "having used a gun in the commission of a crime."
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post #45 of 58
7/9/10 at 8:40pm
You can be charged with multiple crimes for the same act without violating double jeopardy. However, you can only be convicted of one of them. It's a kind of criminal algebra that generally breaks down like this:

1st degree murder = killing someone + intent + malice
There are 3 separate predicates that have to be proven for a conviction.

2nd degree murder = killing someone + intent
There are only 2, so it's easier to prove. However, if you are convicted of 1st, they already proved more than enough to convict you of 2nd. The lesser "predicate offense" is rolled into the greater conviction and you just get the one, harsher sentence.

This applies to more than just murder, as there are plenty of crimes that involve another crime + something else (larceny is a predicate of burglary, aiding and abetting of conspiracy, soliciting of prostitution, attempted X to X, etc.). But without having read up on this case, it would seem like they charged him with either murder or at least voluntary manslaughter. Some aspect of the case was deemed too weak to convict, which left them with only the most basic predicate (the "killing someone" part). That'll only get you involuntary manslaughter.
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post #46 of 58
7/9/10 at 8:42pm
So... you guys think this officer meant to pull his gun and shoot this kid?

In a system that has degrees of murder, I guess I don't understand the outrage unless you think the guy deliberately murdered this kid.
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post #47 of 58
7/9/10 at 8:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCynic View Post
So... you guys think this officer meant to pull his gun and shoot this kid?

In a system that has degrees of murder, I guess I don't understand the outrage unless you think the guy deliberately murdered this kid.
I believer the officer was some sort of psycopath, who deliberately did it. How else to do you unholster your weapon, kneel down, and execute a handcuffed teenager? The idea of a crazy murderous (and probably racist) cop is an embarrassment for the police, so a murder becomes an "accident".

An acccident were a police officer was supposedly going for his taser (to taser a calm restrained suspect, who had already been subdued?????) , but ooops, pulled his gun and killed him instead. That sequence of events is literally not possible. There is no way to confuse unholstering your pistol and pulling the trigger with your taser.... And again, why would you be tasering a handcuffed teenager?
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post #48 of 58
7/9/10 at 9:08pm
It seems to be an accident to me, I'm not sure what benefit there is to an officer who knows that there are onlookers that might have cell phones recording to actually purposefully pulling a gun and shooting a handcuffed teenager.

If it was an accident, this would be justice served yes? Nothing will replace the kid, it's a tragedy in that respect. But he'll do jail time for the manslaughter charge and it looks like more time on top of that...

I suppose if you think he purposefully murdered the kid then yes, this is a grave injustice.
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post #49 of 58
7/9/10 at 10:02pm
Thread Starter 
The riots that took place in Oakland last year were far worse than what happened last night, but you know, if only one business was destroyed or one person got hurt or killed, that would be enough, if that person were you.

The creepy part of all of this for me is the realization that the same "anarchists' who stalk the G20 meetings also seek out events like this, deliberately trying to stir up trouble. These people should be considered Terrorists, pure and simple, and treated accordingly. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNFL1EBKII.DTL

Here is some "raw" photage from last night:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...id=67493&tsp=1

There are good reasons more bad shit didn't go down:

1) City (Oakland and SF), State and local Community organizations worked their asses off to make sure the protests were channeled in a peaceful manner. During the week there were informal meetings were people could just come in and vent their frustrations.

2) The police handled this well (a lot better than New Years 2009) and brought it help from the surrounding counties.

3) As soon as they heard the verdict was coming, people got the hell out of Oakland. By the time the verdict was read, I'd wager the vast majority of people in the city were Police, Reporters and protesters.

4) It was cold as shit in Oakland last night

Having said all that

1) 12 locally run or owned and run business were looted. Most of these were run by African Americans.

2) If negotiations fail, on July 14 80 Oakland Police officers will be laid off.

I really hope we've seen the last of the violence to this verdict.
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post #50 of 58
7/9/10 at 10:12pm
Living in Sf and working for a small business, I don't support rioting. That being said, I in no way resent people being angry, and understand wanting to express that anger in a violent manner, even if its futile.

This Mershele cocksucker shot a handcuffed, face down man in the back. Fuck even voluntary manslaughter, that's murder. He should have been put to death.
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