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Superheroes as Fascist and Undemocratic

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
It's been a staple of discussion since forever that superheroes have a fascist streak. I've always sort of shrugged and accepted it--I don't think it actually has to be a huge deal, as bad as it sounds (I think a lot of genre, stories, and aspects of pop culture can be framed in analytical terms that sound really bad but are of necessity generic and reductive--romantic comedies being anti-feminist, fantasy stories tending to be racist, elitist and pro-monarchy, etc).

But this guy has a really good essay on superheroes that re-examines the underlying question, which is something we maybe ought to do: Part One | Part Two. I definitely think there are some crucial points in there, regardless of whether you agree with all of it. The stuff about Watchmen in Part Two is particularly good.

EDITED TO ADD: I should point out, if you're avoiding clicking, that the guy actually argues that superheroes are inherently ANTI-fascist and pro-democracy.
post #2 of 15
His fascism argument is interesting, though I need to think about it a bit more. There's a lot of grey area there for sure.

I do, on the other hand, think that his attempts at arguing against superheroes being an "adolescent power fantasy" feel like he's trying way too hard to prove everyone wrong. It's semantic. Superheroes are a form of wish-fulfillment and we're most susceptible to being dreamers when we're kids. He doesn't even try to disprove it, just says that wishing isn't adolescent, it's human. Honestly, it just sounds like he doesn't like his beloved comics refered to as childish.
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
But what's incorrect about that statement? Doesn't it counter the "adolescent" thing pretty thoroughly? I know we get a lot of shrieking fanboys who can't countenance the idea that their hobby might be childish and overreact in response, but that doesn't invalidate his argument as far as I can see.

Now, you can argue that superheroes are a genre meant to appeal to adolescents due to their superficial trappings, and I wouldn't disagree. It's possible that this writer wouldn't either. But that's a separate issue from whether the superhero, at base, represents an "adolescent power fantasy". I think he's correct when he says it represents a pretty universal symbol of justice that can be as juvenile or mature as you want. The fact that it's usually framed in adolescent (or juvenile) narratives is a whole other thing.
post #4 of 15
I think there's a certain assumption that wish-fulfillment fantasies are a sign of emotional immaturity - that an adult mind will appreciate realism and complexity, and reject ideas that seem escapist. I'm not entirely sure that this assumption is even a valid one, but yeah, I do think the dude spends way too much time raging against what ends up being a very peripheral issue.

His fascism defense is interesting. I think that maybe the wish-fulfillment actually plays into this: the fact that superheroes are noble enough never to ask for more absolutist power, that they're so willing to maintain the status quo, may be what prevents the genre from being fascist, but it's also a big suspension of disbelief thing.
post #5 of 15
I'd say the 'adolescent' part isn't so much the fact it's wish fulfilment, but the fact those wishes usually involve having animal powers or shooting lasers out of your eyes or whatever. Their habit of being based around socially awkward or alienated characters plays into that as well.

And as for the dodgy politics, that probably depends on which series we're dealing with. But I finally saw the first Iron Man a while back and I have to admit I was a bit uncomfortable with the way it used serious real life conflicts as a backdrop and a part of the plot. That one seemed like a very American wish-fulfilment fantasy: the idea that with enough weapons, technology and physical power, you can neatly solve the world's problems by force.
post #6 of 15
Thread Starter 
Even that, though, isn't necessarily fascist--more like authoritarian. And sad to say, you can't necessarily argue that someone with that much power would never use it for good ends; there have been good and wise and just kings and emperors over the years. I do kind of wish the article had gone more into this distinction, because yes, the fascism point obviously crumbles when you think about it--fascism is explicitly about elevating a certain race or nation above others, which is something even Iron Man never intentionally does. (If you read the other articles that guy links to, he's got some stuff to say about the gap between Captain America's principles and his actions, especially in Civil War, which is on topic. Really, just read through the whole blog, it's really quite good.)

You can argue Iron Man and others take the lead in securing America's place as the dominant power, but even there there's the undertone of "we're only taking charge because someone has to, and it might as well be someone who has a strong sense of justice." While there's a whole Pandora's Box of issues raised by that statement, you can argue that it's at the root of the whole concept of democracy...and, like he says, at the root of the superhero concept as well. "Reluctant power".

This is also why people who scream bloody murder about everything the democratically elected federal government does, as if it was indistinguishable from a totalitarian regime, are idiots, but let's not derail here.
post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielRoffle View Post
I think there's a certain assumption that wish-fulfillment fantasies are a sign of emotional immaturity - that an adult mind will appreciate realism and complexity, and reject ideas that seem escapist. I'm not entirely sure that this assumption is even a valid one....
Given how many adults have read the Harry Potter novels, I think its safe to say that either (a) its not valid or (b) a substantial majority of adults are "immature" in precisely this way.

The intellectual stance that escapism is simple immaturity is, I'd submit, a deeply immature argument - one that's reliant on one narrow definition of maturity; a definition that folks from Mark Twain to Philip Pullman would reject out of hand.
post #8 of 15
But again, I really think it's a quibbly question of semantics. Of course many adults are into Harry Potter (though I think there's definitely an interesting argument to be had about whether adults are more likely to experience a protracted adolescence nowadays), but the question is when is it most likely to hit hardest? When are people most likely to escape into dreams of being able to fly or swing across buildings?

Though I do agree that labelling those things "immature" kind of conjures up unnecessarily negative connotations.
post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Custer View Post
Given how many adults have read the Harry Potter novels, I think its safe to say that either (a) its not valid or (b) a substantial majority of adults are "immature" in precisely this way.

The intellectual stance that escapism is simple immaturity is, I'd submit, a deeply immature argument - one that's reliant on one narrow definition of maturity; a definition that folks from Mark Twain to Philip Pullman would reject out of hand.
You don't even have to go to Harry Potter, really; most everybody enjoys some sort of vicarious wish-fulfillment in their entertainment every now and then. It's just that fantasy books like Harry Potter and superhero comic books are more explicit at showing their escapist side than more "real life", grounded genres like romantic comedies or buddy movies, which nevertheless usually have a string wish-fulfillment component; they're just not about having lazer eyes, as Paul pointed out. Now strictly speaking, I guess that wanting to see the world magically transformed into something less threatening/depressing/whatever is immature in a fashion; but I don't think this sort of immaturity is harmful. It's the need for comfort food, really - I'd say that as a component it's pretty essential, though if it starts being the whole deal*, charges of immaturity start to make more sense.

Of course, superhero comics haven't been "pure" wish-fulfillment in this sense at least since the Silver Age; heroes may have unbelievable powers, but this doesn't exempt them from the tragedies that we all go through. "Grim & gritty" was clearly an attempt at fighting these charges of pure escapism, and as a result we've had two decade's worth of people getting raped, killed, going insane, etc. Which is a pretty immature, hamfisted way of trying not to look escapist.

But I think that the blog's insistence that superheroes aren't about any sort of "adolescent power fantasy" at all is sort of misguided. He makes an interesting point with the hero as a challenge to better democracy factor, but I think that, really, realising that there is a gap between ideals and how the world works isn't necessairly adult (there's plenty of chances to pick up on that in school, if not even kindergarten), and that the idea of a super-powered being helping to right wrongs is in itself an escape from this reality, even if most comics don't afford their protagonists an omnipotent enough role to follow through on that fantasy.

So in essence, I don't think it's selling superhero comics short to accept that there's a an element of power fantasy in them; I think the better defense here would be to a) point out that this fantasy fulfills a necessary function of catharsis for its audience and b) point out that it's only one factor within the universe of superhero comics, not its one defining characteristic.

* It usually isn't, even in good children's fiction.
post #10 of 15
I don't think that the writer of that piece is denying that there is some sort of power fantasy at play, just that it can't be thought of solely as adolescent. I thought he made that point clearly when he was talking about the emotional experience of powerlessness in a democracy. The feeling that "things shouldn't be this way" is not so much explicitly adolescent as it is universal. Superheroes embody a "human power fantasy" for people living in western style democracies.
post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielRoffle View Post
But I think that the blog's insistence that superheroes aren't about any sort of "adolescent power fantasy" at all is sort of misguided. He makes an interesting point with the hero as a challenge to better democracy factor, but I think that, really, realising that there is a gap between ideals and how the world works isn't necessairly adult (there's plenty of chances to pick up on that in school, if not even kindergarten), and that the idea of a super-powered being helping to right wrongs is in itself an escape from this reality, even if most comics don't afford their protagonists an omnipotent enough role to follow through on that fantasy.
Not to mention that apart from the growing frustration with how the world works, adolescence is also characterized as a period of feeling alienation - something superheroes often experience themselves, in one form or another.
post #12 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evi View Post
Not to mention that apart from the growing frustration with how the world works, adolescence is also characterized as a period of feeling alienation - something superheroes often experience themselves, in one form or another.
But again, I think most adults go through periods of alienation, it's just that one feels it keenly for the first time during adolescence. For some adults, this pain dulls, others feel it keenly for the rest of their lives. Does this make the second group of adults less mature? I don't think so, they're just made of different stuff, and many people like this are still able to contribute to their communities in mature and adult ways.

I think hidden in the authors point isn't that superheroes are not in fact adolescent, but rather that adults are not that far at all removed from the emotional state of adolescence, they've just become habituated to it. When he mentions the point about women's, civil, and workers' rights movements I think he's making the point that sometimes this so-called adolescent feeling must be heeded to advance the cause of justice.
post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.S. Randlett View Post
But again, I think most adults go through periods of alienation, it's just that one feels it keenly for the first time during adolescence. For some adults, this pain dulls, others feel it keenly for the rest of their lives. Does this make the second group of adults less mature? I don't think so, they're just made of different stuff, and many people like this are still able to contribute to their communities in mature and adult ways.

I think hidden in the authors point isn't that superheroes are not in fact adolescent, but rather that adults are not that far at all removed from the emotional state of adolescence, they've just become habituated to it. When he mentions the point about women's, civil, and workers' rights movements I think he's making the point that sometimes this so-called adolescent feeling must be heeded to advance the cause of justice.
Well said.
post #14 of 15
Thread Starter 
I'm absolutely sensitive, and sympathetic, to the argument about protracted adolescence and juvenile culture. I even think you can make a strong case for the dangers inherent in fantasy storytelling or escapism, to individuals and to the culture as a whole. But at the same time, I've always found it a bit depressing how limited the forms of true "escapism" can be for adults when it comes to entertainment. It was always acceptable for an adult male to want to be James Bond, but to want to be Superman makes you an arrested adolescent. There's something a bit twisted there, and I'm not sure I can put my finger what it is.

To me, the crucial thing isn't the outright fantasy, it's the level of sophistication, narratively, emotionally and morally. We do accept outright absurdism as "adult" entertainment, or high-flying SF narratives. But we balk from a lot of different kinds of fantasy.

Superheroes are actually interesting because they're probably the purest example of something really childish and simplistic which, in certain hands, became legitimately sophisticated and intelligent and cutting edge and, yes, adult. The problem is that a lot of comics writers really haven't developed much adult sophistication, partly because they obviously feel a bit ashamed of their chosen genre and don't feel prepared to stretch in a truly adult direction, so they layer on the grim 'n ' grittiness to make up for it. I think one of the hallmarks of the Grant Morrisons and Alan Moores of the world is that, fundamentally, they're not ashamed to be writing superhero comics, and can look at it from a detached perspective as an interesting challenge, whereas a lot of superhero writers are writing from a place of defensiveness. Which...is a bit of a mark of adolescence.

"Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

--C. S. Lewis (not a guy I agree with all that often, but when he's right he's right.)
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
I'm absolutely sensitive, and sympathetic, to the argument about protracted adolescence and juvenile culture. I even think you can make a strong case for the dangers inherent in fantasy storytelling or escapism, to individuals and to the culture as a whole. But at the same time, I've always found it a bit depressing how limited the forms of true "escapism" can be for adults when it comes to entertainment. It was always acceptable for an adult male to want to be James Bond, but to want to be Superman makes you an arrested adolescent. There's something a bit twisted there, and I'm not sure I can put my finger what it is.
Can you describe what you mean by protracted adolescence and juvenile culture? I've been sitting here trying to figure out where you can draw that line and I just can't do it. I suppose I can see notes of it in the culture in films like, say, Transformers 2, but I can't think of a logic at present to fulfill that intuition.

Part of it, I think, is that we're using the wrong words. Immature, adolescent, and juvenile don't quite capture it. I keep thinking "unfulfilled" might be a good word for it, as works dangerous to the culture tend to reduce life to some base part or emotion. In other words, they don't take the fullness of life and its conflicts into account. There are many works for adults that do this (if we want to think of something truly insidious there's the Ayn Rand canon), and many works for children (like some of the better Superman stories) that are the opposite and are thus an enriching part of anyone's artistic diet.
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