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Kevin Smith's Batman

post #1 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:33pm
Thread Starter 
Chris Sims vs Kevin Smith vs Batman

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/0...dening-gyre-6/

A sample of Kevin Smith's Batman from link, taking a page from Miller's classic Year one and adding "Humor"

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post #2 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes View Post
Chris Sims vs Kevin Smith vs Batman

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/0...dening-gyre-6/

A sample of Kevin Smith's Batman from link, taking a page from Miller's classic Year one and adding "Humor"
No offense, but I don't find that the least bit funny. "I peed my pants!" humor lost it's appeal around the time we stopped getting recess breaks in school
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post #3 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
No offense, but I don't find that the least bit funny. "I peed my pants!" humor lost it's appeal around the time we stopped getting recess breaks in school
Somebody missed the fact that I put quotes around humor...
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post #4 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes View Post
Somebody missed the fact that I put quotes around humor...
I suspected that was your intention, but I wanted to be careful in case you were trying to share something because you thought it was actually funny. Just wanted to avoid hurt feelings.

I sometimes put quotation marks around words for reasons other than sarcasm (the other day I was talking about Sargamatha and Everest and put quotation marks around the word Everest in order to demonstrate that I do not suscribe to that name for the mountain)

EDIT: After pokin around that website, wow, Smith's comic seems terrible on every level. He continutes to embarrass himself with each new phase in his career
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post #5 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:49pm
Good God, Smith. What the hell is wrong with you?

I remember really enjoying his Daredevil and Green Arrow work, but that was a long time ago and I may well have been a moron back then.
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post #6 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:50pm
The sadder issue here is that someone actually went ahead and approved this.
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post #7 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:54pm
When you take 1 page out of context, you can place whatever you want into the mix.


"The Widening Gyre" as a whole has actually worked. Sure, it's a fanboy picking and choosing what they want out of Batman (1970-1994), but he's actually making it work.

If you're familiar with the Englehart/Rogers run, he's borrowing a lot from that. Sure, some might not like him riffing on Miller's untouchable Year One story. That was just one page out of 130 published thus far.

I figured more people would get their panties in a twist over the dolphin fuck scene.
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post #8 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:54pm
And the art is pretty terrible. Look at the hand of Batman's friend on the post there. It's like the mobius strip of anatomy or something
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post #9 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:56pm
So if I'm readfing this right Batman took his Girl to Superman's hidden fortress, stole a flower and banged her?
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post #10 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:57pm
Batman does a lot of fucking in this series.


EDIT: I've only read 1-5, I haven't had the fortune to sit down with 6 yet.
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post #11 of 42
7/31/10 at 1:59pm
I'm more shocked by the fact he takes some random chick to Superman's hidden citedel and the big guy is ok with that.

Does this mean Supes gets to bang Louis on the back seat of the Batmobile in return?
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post #12 of 42
7/31/10 at 2:03pm
I wished Superman banged a guy named Louis in the backseat of the Batmobile. It's the only thing JMS could do to make his run interesting.


Smith's Batman seems like this attempt to make the unapproachable human (although in a Smith way). I do take fault with Simms' review comparing it to Rise of Arsenal. That's just shit talk.

Nothing is ever going to be as bad as Rise of Arsenal ever.

Going back to Kate's complaint about the art. Walter "Walt" Flanagan is a Smith associate. Look at his background and see how many projects he's worked on without Smith. For this being his second major assignment, he's improved over his work on Cacophony.
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post #13 of 42
7/31/10 at 2:04pm
Well that will teach me for not proof reading before posting.
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post #14 of 42
7/31/10 at 2:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasels Rip My Flesh View Post
Good God, Smith. What the hell is wrong with you?

I remember really enjoying his Daredevil and Green Arrow work, but that was a long time ago and I may well have been a moron back then.
It's like Smiith is trying to copy Morrison's weirder take on Batman in his own voice and failing. Badly.

A better writer could have made it work with, say, Spider-Man.
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post #15 of 42
7/31/10 at 2:08pm
The "Deedee" thing is pretty embarrassing. It's certainly not funny enough to make it the subject of a full-page panel.
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post #16 of 42
7/31/10 at 2:09pm
Not really. Yet, I can see where you might get that.

Have you read the series? It's not like Smith is trying to aspire to what Morrison has done.

EDIT: This was in reference back to Cameron's post.
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post #17 of 42
8/1/10 at 7:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderson View Post
Not really. Yet, I can see where you might get that.

Have you read the series? It's not like Smith is trying to aspire to what Morrison has done.

EDIT: This was in reference back to Cameron's post.
I read the first couple issues. Dumb.
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post #18 of 42
8/1/10 at 9:33pm
It's just kind of funny that people are now on this multiple visions of characters kick. Then, when someone does a version you don't like...all that shit goes right out the window.
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post #19 of 42
8/1/10 at 9:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderson View Post
It's just kind of funny that people are now on this multiple visions of characters kick. Then, when someone does a version you don't like...all that shit goes right out the window.
No one's saying that. It's BAD WRITING. Are you usually a Smith apologist?
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post #20 of 42
8/1/10 at 9:58pm
Holy crapola, Batman!

(Just kidding...I often imagine what yuppie newcasters might say and things like what children might do if allowed to play with sharp objects.)

So a year ago I was saying "How does Kevin Smith get work?" I suspect now after Cop Out that his career is pretty much sliding down the other side of the mountain now. But why is he given a comic series to ruin? Though he is a failing movie director, that still leaves him as a powerful player in the less powerful comic medium? I get that. Now I should ask "who buys this shit??"

It's a neat idea though. If I want to be a player in the comics industry, I should become a successful director and then make a leap over. Save some time and skip some of that "paying my dues" bellyaching. This happened with David Benioff, too, I believe. I like him a HELL OF A LOT BETTER than KS. It just seems like Benioff has never topped his work on 25th Hour and it makes me wonder if maybe he should go back to writing novels instead.

I don't mean to stirr the pot with any Benioff fans.
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post #21 of 42
8/1/10 at 10:06pm
I'm not a Smith apologist. I'm just asking why there can't be room for Smith's Batman?

I am a Benioff apologist, though.
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post #22 of 42
8/2/10 at 1:24pm
Because Smith's Batman is fucking stupid. Create multiple versions of a character all you want, but dumb is dumb.
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post #23 of 42
8/2/10 at 1:45pm
Having Smith's over-sex pants pissing Batman still doesn't take away from other work. Getting over worked by one man's take on the Caped Crusader just seems like a waste of time.

But, I guess you guys still groan over rubber nipples on a Batsuit.
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post #24 of 42
8/2/10 at 1:55pm
I just don't like the series and stopped reading after the 2nd comic. I don't mind reading different takes on Batman. I'm just not going to read a terrible take on him or any character for that matter.

But hey, I enjoyed All Star Batman & Robin.
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post #25 of 42
8/2/10 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpvalentine View Post
It just seems like Benioff has never topped his work on 25th Hour and it makes me wonder if maybe he should go back to writing novels instead.

I don't mean to stirr the pot with any Benioff fans.
Back to writing novels? Ever hear of City of Thieves?
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post #26 of 42
8/2/10 at 2:00pm
I loved All Star Bats, DKSA and the rest of the Miller babble.

I'm just saying that if we're going to shit on Kevin Smith, there's a lot more questionable Batman material to put into play.


Does that excuse Mr. Smith? Oh no. But, he doesn't need any excuse. He's doing what he should do as an author trying to tell a tale that he feels hasn't been shared in the DCU. If you don't like it, there's a half ton of other Batman material going on that's in and out of continuity.

It's not like DC is allowing Kevin Smith to actively destroy all character development in Bats. They only let that shit happen to Roy Harper.
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post #27 of 42
8/2/10 at 2:55pm
A bad book out of continuity is still a bad book. "There's worse stuff out there" and "if you don't like it read something else" are arguments that you could use to defend just about anything.
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post #28 of 42
8/2/10 at 3:20pm
This whole mess would be much less aggregious if Smith wasn't going so far out of his way to actively shit all over year one. Actively attacking a story like that just puts an exclamation point on how shallow, poor and juevenile Smith's own writing is.
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post #29 of 42
8/2/10 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
This whole mess would be much less aggregious if Smith wasn't going so far out of his way to actively shit all over year one. Actively attacking a story like that just puts an exclamation point on how shallow, poor and juevenile Smith's own writing is.
But, it was just one page. That's what I'm not getting here. One page equals fan outcry?

It's not like this is the one retcon that breaks the camel's back.
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post #30 of 42
8/3/10 at 5:04am
Well Walt Flannigan's improving artistic abilities are impressive, I just can't be bothered to get the next "volume" of this. Maybe Kevin Smith opening the door for his friend will get Walt work with more talented writers.
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post #31 of 42
8/3/10 at 6:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielRoffle View Post
A bad book out of continuity is still a bad book. "There's worse stuff out there" and "if you don't like it read something else" are arguments that you could use to defend just about anything.
Exactly. You're essentially saying it should be critic-proof because it's not the worst thing ever made to feature Batman. This is an anti-criticism stance - anything and everything can be defended using it.
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post #32 of 42
8/3/10 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
Exactly. You're essentially saying it should be critic-proof because it's not the worst thing ever made to feature Batman. This is an anti-criticism stance - anything and everything can be defended using it.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Missing the entire fucking point.

It's not criticproof, but the existence of it doesn't hurt Year One. You might not care for how Smith riffed on Miller's work, but it has its place.

The initial point of disagreement centered around whether or not Smith's take on the Year One incident was valid. Then, this thread turned into who did what better. That doesn't matter.

The central point was whether or not Smith was in the right for "riffing" on Miller's Year One which goes back to the original review that Hughes referenced.

Hughes' referenced review suggests that Smith having a little fun with center Batman staples was on the level of DC taking apart a beloved character (ala Roy Harper). It isn't. Throughout comicdom, we've had lighter takes on icons. They all haven't been great, but it's not like they were trying to destroy years of character building.

Going back to the original image referenced and where the bitching started...does Batman pissing his pants ruin a comic for you?
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post #33 of 42
8/3/10 at 1:48pm
I would say that Batman pissing his pants because of an explosion that HE set is a character killing moment. And it's meant to be. He's not 'having fun,' he's undermining. The intent is to make Batman look silly and ridiculous in one of his seminal 'grim n gritty' moments.

What makes it worse is that it's Kevin Smith - a guy who comes in to play with comics when he likes. This isn't even the artistic vision of a real writer. Smith is a hack, a poor writer and a dilettante.

Yeah, the character is unbroken, but it's still terrible in every way.
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post #34 of 42
8/3/10 at 2:01pm
There we go. That's what I was trying to find.

Taking Devin's assessment, Simms' original opinion and Smith's many declarations of his intent via the comic press (CBR, Bleeding Cool, what have you)...does the fan vision undermine intent?

Smith is a huge Batman/DCU fan who has actively tried to make a footprint in the Comic Universe of his youth. Does the older fan revisiting his past ruin it? While you're pondering that, take a look at Geoff Johns.

Johns is the newly dubbed Chief Creative Officer for DC and the guy has built a career on going balls deep into the Silver/Bronze Age. While Johns is a far better writer, what makes his endless series of retcons any different than what Smith has done here. Smith has altered the tone of a classic DC tale. But, Johns and the friends of Johns (Meltzer, Winnick, etc) have done similar changes with a far larger scale.
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post #35 of 42
8/3/10 at 2:02pm
And... Kevin Smith goes down a few pegs (didn't think that was possible) in the respect category.

Not out of some sense of Batman-defending nerd-rage (I don't really read comics and don't have a vested interest in the "continuity" of the Batman comic universe or anything). But just out of boredom, annoyance and disgust with his perpetual obsession and misuse of juvenile humor masquerading as some sort of intellectual wit.

This would be a lame comic regardless. But that it's Smith makes it so much worse.

I guess the good thing is that Kevin Smith is firmly planting himself as one of those "automatic taste indicators" you can use when making new friends, taking film recommendations, etc.

"Oh, perhaps I'll check that out. Just one more thing... are you a Kevin Smith fan, by chance?"
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post #36 of 42
8/3/10 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
And... Kevin Smith goes down a few pegs (didn't think that was possible) in the respect category.

Not out of some sense of Batman-defending nerd-rage (I don't really read comics and don't have a vested interest in the "continuity" of the Batman comic universe or anything). But just out of boredom, annoyance and disgust with his perpetual obsession and misuse of juvenile humor masquerading as some sort of intellectual wit.

This would be a lame comic regardless. But that it's Smith makes it so much worse.

I guess the good thing is that Kevin Smith is firmly planting himself as one of those "automatic taste indicators" you can use when making new friends, taking film recommendations, etc.

"Oh, perhaps I'll check that out. Just one more thing... are you a Kevin Smith fan, by chance?"

That's what I was trying to steer this away from. The focus should really be on what he did with the character vs. opinion of him.
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post #37 of 42
8/3/10 at 2:12pm
Sorry. It's flat out impossible at this point for me to divorce Smith from his work due to his incredibly fat mouth.
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post #38 of 42
8/3/10 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderson View Post
There we go. That's what I was trying to find.

Taking Devin's assessment, Simms' original opinion and Smith's many declarations of his intent via the comic press (CBR, Bleeding Cool, what have you)...does the fan vision undermine intent?

Smith is a huge Batman/DCU fan who has actively tried to make a footprint in the Comic Universe of his youth. Does the older fan revisiting his past ruin it? While you're pondering that, take a look at Geoff Johns.

Johns is the newly dubbed Chief Creative Officer for DC and the guy has built a career on going balls deep into the Silver/Bronze Age. While Johns is a far better writer, what makes his endless series of retcons any different than what Smith has done here. Smith has altered the tone of a classic DC tale. But, Johns and the friends of Johns (Meltzer, Winnick, etc) have done similar changes with a far larger scale.
Two things - you're removing value judgment from the equation, which is reductive to criticism. Criticism doesn't exist on a sliding scale - "What he wrote isn't as bad as what this other guy wrote" - so ignore that.

The other thing is that Meltzer almost single-handedly ruined the DC Universe for me. Is Batman pissing himself as bad as Elongated Man's wife getting raped and murdered? No, but it's all in the same continuum of dickbags who don't understand the comics they're writing.
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post #39 of 42
8/3/10 at 2:42pm
Understanding the comics and the characters is about as essential as it gets if you're taking on a property a enormous as Batman. I'm sure Smith thought he was being funny but it was absolutely at the expense of the character and the comic. It completely destroys the story because it completely takes you out. Even if someone thought it was funny it would still take them out of the story because it's so daft. Man alive, of all the characters available I can't think of one less suited to that kind of nonsense than Batman. Maybe he should be writing something like Deadpool? Not actually Deadpool, I don't want him near Marvel but something more tongue in cheek? Or maybe just not writing? Yeah, that'd be good.
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post #40 of 42
8/3/10 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Two things - you're removing value judgment from the equation, which is reductive to criticism. Criticism doesn't exist on a sliding scale - "What he wrote isn't as bad as what this other guy wrote" - so ignore that.

The other thing is that Meltzer almost single-handedly ruined the DC Universe for me. Is Batman pissing himself as bad as Elongated Man's wife getting raped and murdered? No, but it's all in the same continuum of dickbags who don't understand the comics they're writing.
I can see where you thought I was bringing the sliding scale into the matter, but my point was that what Smith has done is part of a larger push at DC.

Is Smith writing a bad Batman? Yes. There's really no point to argue. But, what I'm saying is that in terms of retcon debasement...it pales to those that have preceded him in regards to Batman and DCU in the last 5-6 years.

Does that excuse The Widening Gyre? Of course, not. What it does show is a pattern of detriment starting with Raped char-broiled Dibney to mauled Teen Titans to the wholesale slaughter of ethnic teen heroes.

That goes back to my fault with the original review that Cameron Hughes referenced. Where does the buck stop and where does the blame begin for the piss-poor stories? All signs point to editorial.

Which then leads to the larger question....is there any editorial oversight at DC? A comic doesn't just happen, it passed through many hands that said Batman pissing himself is ok.
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post #41 of 42
8/3/10 at 9:32pm
That's an argument I strongly dislike because it absolves all blame. It's the same argument you could make for movies - 'Well, the script stinks, but the studio guys have no vision etc etc etc.' If the writer wants the credit, he takes the blame as well.
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post #42 of 42
8/3/10 at 9:50pm
Well, that's the tricky line I've been walking with this. The way I'm seeing DC now is similar to how Marvel was in the early 90s.

It comes across a playground atmosphere where no idea is being shot down and creators are coming up with relatively lackluster material.

Smith is ultimately responsible for his work, so blame falls to him. But, there's the matter of these moments becoming almost a DC staple. While it was Smith's dumbass move, I don't feel that it's fair to act like he's the only one to do something fucking stupid with Batman in the last few years.
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