Religious persecution in Manhattan

Alan Jacobs, a relatively conservative Christian professor at Wheaton College, addressed the issue over at The American Scene, and I think he did a fairly good job of it. A sample of his comments:

But the really sad thing is that people who call themselves conservatives — Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin — should be crying out for apparatuses of the state to limit and police voluntary religious association. This is a profoundly anti-conservative view in two ways. First, it is historically myopic, as Mayor Bloomberg’s brief history of controversies about religious freedom in New York City demonstrates. It’s remarkable that people who invoke the Founders so regularly and in such tones of devotion could be utterly deaf to the Founders’ concern to ensure freedom for mistrusted minority religions. They might start by reading George Washington’s once-famous letter to the Newport synagogue, paying special attention to this sentence: “It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent national gifts.” In Washington’s understanding, it is misbegotten even to ask the question, “Should we tolerate this?”

Moreover, the Gingrich-Palin view of the matter is as blind to the future as it is to the past. No one would make such an argument who did not anticipate that his or her own religious preferences will forever be enshrined as the socially dominant ones. Having endorsed the principle that minority religions can be policed by the state, Gingrich and Palin may well be unpopular figures to their descendants, if Christianity continues to decline as a force in American culture.

In its origins, with Burke, conservatism was supposed to be about taking the long view, having proper deference to the wisdom of our ancestors and taking proper care for the flourishing of our descendants. This is also what Chesterton meant when he said that tradition is “the democracy of the dead.” Burke thought this long view was most likely to be taken by the aristocracy, but in a society without an aristocracy there needs to be a body of intellectuals who take it as their special mission to meditate on the “first things”, one might say, that link us to those who went before us and those who will come after.

The approach Gingrich and Palin take to the proposed lower Manhattan mosque has nothing to do with conservatism in this sense. It is neither conservative, nor liberal, nor anything else worthy to be called “political thought.” It is an infantile grasping after a fleeting and elusive cultural dominance.

What I find funny is the proposed site for the mosque is, what, seven or eight blocks away from Ground Zero? In an old Burlington Coat Factory? Sweet Spaghetti Monster, these jerkoffs will find anything to complain about, won't they?

Daryl Lang took pictures of the neighborhood that comprises the "hallowed ground" Palin, et. al, would suggest that Mosque should dare not intrude upon. Doesn't really seem so sacred to me.

I'd have a lot easier time buying the "anywhere but near Ground Zero" argument if people weren't protesting proposed mosques and Muslim community centers all over the country. But then again, there's already a mosque in NYC closer to Ground Zero than this proposed center, so I don't get the outrage at all. I have heard some people try to link the name "Cordoba House" to the Muslim occupation of Spain (Cordoba was a provincial capital and later a caliphate in its own right), claiming that it means they intend to occupy America just as they occupied Spain, but that's a real reach.

It's just sad that for some, it's "freedom of MY religion, not yours."

The truly sad thing is that Gingrich--Palin's church is scary enough to give me doubts on her part--doesn't even really have any religious fervor. This is 100% about instilling fear of darkies in the Republican base and getting them to the polls in November in record numbers. It's kind of weird to see how reckless these people are becoming. They're getting cops shot on the street by the people they're coaxing out of the woodwork and don't care.

They intend to occupy America just as they occupied Spain over a thousand years ago? Yeah. Sure.

Those photos are of the neighborhood just north of the World Trade Center (I used to work on the street that houses The NY Dolls strip club, which is two blocks away from City Hall!). But still, the point remains that the mosque isn't at Ground Zero and that the area in general is a complete shit hole.

ETA: Looking at a map, Park Place is three blocks north of Ground Zero. And the street with the strip club is one block north of that. So the mosque is near the site, but not close enough to claim that its location is insensitive to the people who died at Ground Zero.

This wouldn't be an issue if we could just be intolerant of all religion.

Exactly. I'm kind of against the idea of any place of worship being put up near ground zero (given the fact that religion caused the attack), but if we're going to have one, I am definitely going to side with peaceful American Muslims over racist "American" xenophobes any day of the week

I'm pro-Mosque

Do you ever pause and consider the fact that you openly endorse the pre-emptive use of nuclear weapons on civilian populations before mounting your moral high horse on issues of violence?

I went to an interesting lecture about Islamophobia at SOAS University a few months ago. And they talk about negative portrayals of Muslims and the lack of media coverage of human rights violations of Muslims.

But most of it was about Islamophobia exploding in Europe, and how all the Neo Nazi groups of Europe in the 60s and 70s have changed their focus to Islamophobia, which has seriously revitilised them.

And its pretty crazy how many growing Neo Nazi / Islamophobia groups there are all over Europe. These groups have been marginalized for decades but they are growing in political strength and numbers all over. But they don't voice Antisemetism. Even the leader of the British National Party, used to be a member of a Neo Nazi group in the 60s, and they've grown exponentially in the last few years. The guy was even in the bbc PM debates.

Of course they should build the not-really-a-mosque. The arguments against it are paltry at best, maliciously deceitful at worst. The arguments in favor are monumental and obvious, and it's a shame that they even have to be spelled out.

Huh? No I don't. As I've stated on the board before, the end of WW2 was a unique moment in history, never to be repeated. The circumstances that made the use of nuclear weapons acceptable are impossible to replicate in the modern age, and all nukes should be disassembled and destroyed at this point (with enough kept around to frighten off any menacing asteroids, of course).

Also, "preemptive" use of nukes? You're aware of the existence of WW2 and our struggle against the Japanese Empire, right?

Anyway, Cuch, that has NOTHING to do with the discussion of the mosque, so if you want to argue about Nagasaki go find that thread please. I'm not going to discuss it further here.

I can see why they'd be so offended by having a mosque near Ground Zero. I mean yeesh, it'd be almost as bad as having a church near a day care.

So radical Islamist fundamentalists run around and proclaim "Americans hate you and will never tolerate your religion!", and Palin and Gingrich and conservatives do everything they can to prove it's true. Amazing.

It's not a mosque, it's a community center akin hat happens to have a place of worship in it. That's important, because the goals of the center are not just about promoting tolerance, but giving the community a place to take their kids to play or go to the gym or whatever. Everything I've read indicates that this plans to operate much like the "little C" YMCAs or the 92nd Street Y (a Jewish community center) do, meaning that religious instruction will be available, but giving the community a comfortable place is the first and foremost goal. To which I say, Kate, I love you, but shut the fuck up.

It's also important to acknowleged that they haven't even built the thing yet, all of this nonsense is about getting permission to build the community center. They haven't even raised enough money to start construction, and the place isn't scheduled to open for at least a couple of years. And Mayor Bloomberg's speech on this is absolutely essential reading. I really disagree with a lot of the guy's policies, but I was proud of him, and of New York City, that day.

Finally, Muslims have been worshipping at the site for months now. Where were Palin and Gingrich then?

Obama's taking quite a beating for speaking out in favor of people legally building an establishment they're legally allowed to build.

A meaningless wedge issue ginned up in an election year? Who would have thought?

And though it's utterly beside the point, I work next to the WTC and as Diva pointed out, the site of this supposedly insensitive blight is at least a subway stop away. Dumbshit protesters are going to need directions from me to find it from the WTC site.

Proud of him speaking out, but it was a few days later than it should have been. All the same, glad he did. If he'd kept silent, I'd have lost quite a bit of respect for him.

It's the President's job to play the adult and come in and say "we're not going to start protesting mosques, that isn't American"

Anyone else wishing it was actually a Qdoba House?

All joking aside, I don't understand the fight at all. It's a mosque. That's it. If they are building outside code, like with space shuttle engines for heating, then shut it down, but it's legal. Ach, the fall of modern sensibility into madness.

Also, the community board voted to deny the site/building Landmark status a couple of weeks ago, and they'd already supporting building the center on the site. Yes, there's a lawsuit overturning the decision, but a lot of Manhattanites and the Mayor support building it. I don't want to pull a Cuch, but this basically means Middle America can suck on it, and there's not a lot Sarah Palin can do.

Also, it's Park51 now, not Cordoba House. The latter is what the right is using as a fear-mongering tactic.

The proximity shouldn't matter at all. They could (or should be able to) build it right next to Ground Zero if they wanted to

Yeah, I wasn't disputing that. My point is that it is disingenuous that the opposition, to garner more sympathy from their constituency, are claiming that the community center is being built at Ground Zero, when it is not. I agree that proximity doesn't matter, but it is bing used as a way to rally anti-mosque support.

And like I said, even if the "near Ground Zero" thing was valid, you've still got other people taking this ball and running with it and protesting mosques and community centers that have absolutely nothing to do with Ground Zero. Which I'm sure the folks against the one in NYC have no problem with.

Really great article on HuffPo about how the right is framing the issue: "Ground Zero Mosque" is the new "death panels."

For being so conservative, these "conservatives" really are in support of state regulation on religion.

Love how Glenn Beck said on his show today that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. I also love how horrible of a lie that really is. Oh well. Such is life.

You know what? That America was founded on those principles, and that the Founding Fathers were Christian are such GIGANTIC lies, that I have no idea how NO ONE seems to raise their hand and just say "Hold it right there-- that's not true, at all."

Seriously, it's such a big lie that it's comparable to saying the Civil War began when Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria was assassinated. It's something that's supposed to IMMEDIATELY make you say "Huh? What? No, that's not right."

No one would let millions of Americans keep saying that we can thank Gavrilo Princip for the War Between the States, why do we say nothing everytime one of these fuckfaces says "Thomas Jefferson was a Christian!"

Someone should buy a slew of billboards that say: "The Founding Fathers weren't actually Christian-- we're just too lazy to explain to you what Unitarianism, Deism and Agnosticism are."

The really worrying thing about some of these nutty groups - like the Dominionists - is their striking resemblance to the fascists that rose out of Italy and Germany. There's a weird kind of quasi-Hegelianism at their heart. The fusion of visible and repeated iconography with naked power, rock star status and (male) hero-worship.

Back in the day they usually stayed clear of politics. Now rarely a week goes by when you don't see guys like Falwell or Robertson glad-handing government officials. Another modern phenomenon is the alignment with the absolute worst elements of rapacious capitalism. If you have any sense at all the alarm bells MUST be ringing when one minute someone like Falwell is being patted on the back by the CEO of some medical insurance company and the next he's telling you not to worry about insurance because God takes care of his own.

At one time the issue used to be hostility toward the Jewish faith. Now they align themselves with the hardest or hard-Right Zionists because it will bring the Apocalypse down sooner. You have people like Robertson investing donations in Blood Diamond rackets whilst calling for the public assassination of Hugo Chavez.

All the above is very scary, but given a possible future economic crash which may be brought about by a) peak oil, b) overpopulation, c) global-warming induced mass migrancy, d) pollution and/or e) over-stretching of other natural resources - it's worth remembering that when the centre falls apart it's groups like these who tend to be left standing...

Why are there no complaints about the mosque inside the Pentagon? Where are the right-wingers to argue that this should not be allowed because it's clearly the first (the community center is the second) phase of the jihad that will lead to Sharia law throughout DC and New York (and Edmonton and Calgary, or so I'm told)?

Someone on Twitter said something relevant for once.

Built the center in the crater, along with a Buddhist stupa and a Zen monastery. At least there will be a fuckin' building there, and the sheepfuckers in the rectangular states can stop masturbating over their vicarious injury. Seriously, those crackers hate New York City and everyone in it anyhow. Fuck 'em.

I just took great pleasure in providing the address and directions via Google maps to some mouth-breather who said I was full of crap about their already being a mosque closer to Ground Zero than this community center. Two of them, in fact.

EDIT: Ooh, I've been schooled, the proposed community center is two-tenths of a mile closer than the mosque. I guess my point has been completely invalidated.

Gentlemen.

While I receive, with much satisfaction, your Address replete with expressions of affection and esteem; I rejoice in the opportunity of assuring you, that I shall always retain a grateful remembrance of the cordial welcome I experienced in my visit to Newport, from all classes of Citizens.

The reflection on the days of difficulty and danger which are past is rendered the more sweet, from a consciousness that they are succeeded by days of uncommon prosperity and security. If we have wisdom to make the best use of the advantages with which we are now favored, we cannot fail, under the just administration of a good Government, to become a great and a happy people.

The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my Administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.

- George Washington to the Hebrew Congregation of Newport, Rhode Island. August 8, 1790.

See? It's a nefarious plot to instill community values. One could say, perhaps, organized values...

Obama's in league with the community organizers! It's all a vast conspiracy!

You jest, but if someone said this on FOX News I wouldn't bat an eye.

He's has done a follow up post with a map of where he took the photos:

I slightly disagree. Any place with that amount of death is and should be hallowed ground. That being said, the most hallowed of all ground in America (Gettysburg National Cemetery and Military Park) has a McDonalds and a KFC across the street from the Visitors Center and the area where Lincoln gave the Gettysburg Address. So, Palin has no real legs to stand on there.

So we're not gonna rebuild there and do business in new skyscrapers?

Somebody should tell Palin we found oil under there.

Just because it's hallowed ground doesn't mean we can't do something with the land. I'm not suggesting that it should be a park or anything. In fact, I think the skyscrapers are a perfect way of honoring those dead. We rebuild what we lost, bigger and better. The finished product would represent the true way of fighting terrorism at home - continuing on with our lives with no fear and the belief that we must push on with our values no matter the cost.

And if we get started now, we could actually be done in, oh, twenty or thirty years.

I'm pretty sure I would take a bat to someone's eye.

I've deleted, and been deleted by, multiple high school friends on facebook over this issue. Not that I care all much about that, but I do care about the issue itself.
So annoying. Where did they get the 9/11 inauguration day thing?

I can't think of a better day to remind people that not all Muslims are plane-wielding maniacs.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w...mosque_origins

Little known fact: a large percentage of them don't even know how to fly!
Ug. Thanks.

That article is infuriating.

"Professional anti-Islam industry" is a real phrase. That frightens and enrages me.

I'm not the first person to make this observation, but for all his faults, W managed to keep a lid on the anti-Muslim rage in his party. At the very least, he paid lip service to the idea that Muslim citizens were valued members of American society, thereby making it taboo for prominent elected Republicans to say otherwise.