Religious persecution in Manhattan - Page 3

What we are talking about here is a business. There is another one near by, as Dickson pointed out. Why would people frequent this business with the prospect of controversy, protests and opposition? This isn't a school \ government facility or breaking through some social barrier.. this isn't a unique hybrid where it bridges the gap between the folks who were affected by 9/11 and another culture.

Economically it is more feasible to move the business to a location where it can garner a steady stream of patrons, worshipers, etc... without being the center of a media fire storm. It certainly looks like NY officials are at this point. If the majority is opposed to it, that is a sign that they will not be utilizing it and the purpose becomes moot.

The voices of sanity are finally beginning to coalesce it seems.

Christopher Hitchens weighs in.

I lived there, I worked there and I learned there.

The biggest problem with the Obama Administration from day one in my opinion is that its campaign narrative raised the bar astronomically to a point that they could never, ever fulfill.

The President of the United States cannot change Washington alone. I am a horrible cynic because of my experience in DC. It needs a poison pill - a chance to start over. The virus is everywhere and it is especially in places that the President has no real power in. It's lobbying and special interests. Washington is a place with millions of opinions and interests. One person, one administration, cannot possibly contain all opinions. For every pro life interest you excite with happiness, you excite a pro-choicer with anger.

For every legislator you see, you see ten lobbyists standing behind them with money to give away. It's in their best interest to be beholden to special interests. That being said, you can't ask our legislators to do the best thing for the country when the alternative is those special interests finding another whore to bankroll.

Liberal Howard Dean has come out against it. Conservative Ted Olson, whose wife died in the 9/11 attacks, has come out in support of it.

Up is down, black is white...

Oh, Hitch. Using stuff like logic. Will he never learn?

The man's at death's door and he's still banging out well-reasoned, deftly-written essays.

This rang true to me:

Poll: Growing number incorrectly call Obama Muslim

Christ, really? Really?!?!

Ugh.

I have such low hopes for November 2010 and November 2012.

I still don't understand why people see "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." as some sort of inflammatory statement. It's the truth. It just doesn't fit into the narrative of "They hate our way of life!" that perpetuates the idea of US as innocent victim.

Sigh. I tried to make this point on another board -- that the reasons behind 9-11 and radical Islam in general are a lot more complex than "They hate us" -- by mentioning that the Japanese didn't attack Pearl Harbor simply because they hated us or because they were making a power grab, but because the crippling US oil embargo forced their hand to eliminate any possible US intervention in their acquisition of oil resources in the Pacific.

Of course, the first response was, "Well, when you try to blame the US for the attack on Pearl Harbor..."

Critical thinking is truly dead. Long live black and white ideology.

Some asshole I know articulated the following to me:

Right, that's why they've been triggered regularly over the last few years or so and impelled to protest the mosque that already exists a few blocks away. Genius.

Sounds like you got off easy. I get accused of "bullshit Marxist historical interpretation" when I try to express a more nuanced opinion on U.S. History that doesn't revolve around apple pies, mom and kicking ass for freedom and democracy.

Next time explain to him, that since the US is the country with the greatest allocation of shares among the population, i.e. participitation in capital, you are by definition the most marxist country in the world. How is that for "Marxist historical interpretation"?

Ugh. Just got sucked into a debate on this issue with some woman on FrankCobretti's Facebook wall. A sample of her ramblings:

When I posted that it was un-American to discriminate against someone for their religion, she responded:

Seriously, what?! I'm glad I don't know anyone who believes shit like this. It's impossible to hold a debate when one doesn't believe in facts.

Mo Monies, mo Muslimz!11!!!1

Seriously though, as a foreigner I have to ask why all these people seem to be on a warpath with the English language?

So it's "the 911" now, huh?

"I wrote in Starman that human beings were at their best when things were at their worst. That's not true. 9/11 and everything that came after proved me wrong." - John Carpenter

Recently had to post on my sister's FB page that it's not, in fact, being built ON Ground Zero, and there's not a grand opening on 9/11/11. Good times.

John Carpenter: Warrior Poet.

How does building the center ignore 9/11 victims' families? I'm sorry, cries of insensitivity at this point just ring as being especially disingenuous and hollow.

It's not like they're going to round up the victims' families and make them use the community center.

No, what we are talking about is a world religion and the unjustifiable prejudice toward its peaceful practitioners. Business has nothing to do with this controversy, and it isn't the point at all.

The point isn't the optimal monetization of a business location. The point is the utter bigotry and ignorance on display - a bigotry that encourages people to insult and attack Christian men who agree with them simply because they "look Muslim." It's a bigotry that necessitates someone correcting a CNN newsanchor in the belief that "Muslims" (as in ALL of them) were responsible for 9/11.

I have it on good authority that "the 911" is a joke in my town.

Until everyone learns to speak proper American, then those foreigners speaking that euro-socialist English better watch out!

Religion is business, anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you something. The developers are trying to wrangle up 100 million dollars to build this project. I'm not sure if they own the space they're building on or leasing it but either way, they have monthly \ yearly bills that need paying. They'll need money for this on a daily \ weekly \ monthly basis to meet these obligations.. without patrons they will be unable to reach that goal and it will be closed.

As to your second paragraph, re-read what I had written before. This isn't about what is right, or constitutional or logical this is about emotions. Otherwise rational human beings will become irrational when emotions boils over. I got into a debate about this Sunday with some folks and no matter what I said to them, they disagreed and thought it was wrong to build this there. You cannot bridge a divide with a divisive issue.

So? Seriously, if you're waiting for people to hold hands together and accept one another as human beings before you take an unpopular (yet perfectly valid, legal and/or right) action I have news for you: That's exactly what the people who are opposed to it want! Why do you think they use the language they do, propagandize as they do, stir up discord? Because they want that emotional, visceral response.

I want to take this post out behind the grade school and get it pregnant.

Not that I'd expect anything else from him, but Snaieke's argument in this thread is a complete crock of shit. If we let that mentality guide us nothing important would ever be accomplished, because you're always going to offend someone's irrational whims and emotions or run the risk of upsetting some wacko. It's completely antithetical to any kind of action or progress. You're right, you probably can't reason with the people who are against this, but subsequently you shouldn't give up and kowtow to them. You should say fuck you and power through.

Riiiiiiiiight:

You were saying?

So? Are you telling me that you care whether it stays open or not? How is that at all relevant to the specious reasoning behind asking them to move?

You say this stuff, but it's unconnected to anything about the central issue here - a group of peaceful people are being harrassed and discriminated against based on their religion. Guess what? There is no ambiguity to that.

How about you start by re-reading what I'd written. How is this different, emotionally, than desegregating Alabama? Do you disagree with that decision? If the majority doesn't like, say, the idea of integration shouldn't they be deferred to? I mean, there's no bridging that kind of divisive issue.

And how do you feel about free speech, given that it's expressly protected in order to secure the voice of the minority among the majority? Should people with unpopular viewpoints (like, say, the idea that the earth is not the center of the universe) just shut up so they don't get hurt and/or upset the majority?

The cynical whores who make up a lot of today's Democratic party have a difficult time even pantomiming sincerity about any issue that doesn't directly impact their own wallets. Obama, Reid, the new Supreme Court Justice, take your pick. They're losing votes from the left this year, except in states where the Repubs have been particularly race-baity, for exactly this reason. Their idea of bipartisanship entails not believing in anything but the pursuit of their own careers and scratching their heads when voters respond to a rival party that is at least passionate and that can appeal to passion. The Dems try to imitate genuine belief in a cause for the cameras, and it always looks like a comedy actor trying to do drama.

This whole thing is so galling. You know what is a real insult to 9/11 victims? The way the Republican party has done nothing but exploit 9/11 for political gain since it happened. Their actions in the last nine years have done far more damage than a fucking Muslim cultural center ever will. This blind stupidity will set our nation back for decades to come.

This seems to be a western democracy thing rather than just a stateside problem, as we have the exact same problem with our supposed left wing (actually centre right) mainstream political party here in Australia and Labor in the UK seems to be suffering the same lack of any idealistic bent outside of simply being elected/re-elected.

For all the cries of socialism you get from right wingers (and we get those ridiculous taunts from the right here as well) there really doesn't seem to be many actual left wing parties in mainstream politics in much of the west right now.

I wonder if that's because the market and corporations essentially run the world now rather than political parties?

This. Right here. It disgusts me how the right -- and the left, too, for that matter -- will exploit New York when, and only when, it's politically convienent. It makes me want to throw my hands up in the air and never vote again.

LDS (Mormon) net worth is somewhere in the neighborhood of $30 Billion.

The Vatican's gold reserves (not including stock portfolio's, artwork and real estate holdings) are somewhere in the low end neighborhood of $10billion dollars.

As of 1965 their total net worth was somewhere around 10-15 Billion. You can extrapolate what present day dollars they're at.

Sorry, I was unaware you had been sold something already. Keep the faith, brother!

I'm less inclined to see it open at that location than at another location. Heck, expand the two existing mosque's in the vicinity or open a multi-cultural community center if the true motivation is healing.

A group of peaceful people are always being harassed based on their religion, look at Mormons, Christians, Catholics etc... that's a complete non-issue. More wars have been started over religion then anything else.

You cannot compare it to desegregation. A government isn't FORCING this to be open. People aren't demanding it to be opened, this is one guy \ group that wants to open a business.

Glad you brought up free speech. What I am talking about is more akin to the limitation of free speech, e.g. preventing you from yelling fire in a crowded theater. In doing so you endanger the lives of people.

Show me where a Christian, or Catholic or any other type of religion has a place of worship or community center open if it is highly protested or faces extreme opposition. It doesn't.

People are sticking to the theory that this is a "victory" mosque and that the site it is being built on is hollowed ground. Now, I'm not going to debate these points because they're very questionable. I've never heard of a "victory" mosque before and it gets murky on whether that site is indeed, hollowed ground. But it boils down to the emotion overtaking logic and you're not going to convince people anything but what they believe.

It's not questionable, it's utter bullshit.

Also, it's "hallowed".

I'm going to sound weird but this among all the other bad stuff going down around the world gives me a really bad feeling. It might just be my anxiety talking since I'm going through a weird period personally but when I'm following the news I feel like Veidt watching his videowall. Nothing in Watchmen scale of course but that things are about to turn irrevocably nasty and violent.

I think I may be reading too much history.

Snaieke, your posts are highly protested and face extreme opposition, yet no one is suggesting you take them someplace else. Well, not out loud, anyway.

Seriously, this is the worst bullshit argument he's ever posted.

I think exactly the same thing. It just feels like the base conditions are all set where we've got a perfect group of people ready to just blame when a government needs to distract us proles from something.

I always like to think we in the 'civilized' West wouldn't fall for this crap, but things like this (and history) just make me think I'm hopelessly naive.

You're not alone, Stel. I'm right there with you. I keep hoping I'm wrong, but I simply cannot shake the bad vibes I've been getting lately. Seriously having doubts about heading back to the States in December.

You too huh stel? If you're reading too much into this then so am I mate. It's giving me a really horrible 'Crossing the Rubicon' feeling for the state of American culture, it's mass media and politics - real shiver up the spine type stuff. This is pointing in a really appalling direction that can't end anywhere but in a truly terrible place for America and not enough voices of sanity seem to be trying to bring it to a halt - or those that are aren't being listened to.

what

I will, thanks.

As for this nonsense you've posted - congratulations! You too can conflate the assets of organizations with the philosophies that founded them! You're carrying on a 'proud,' intellectually-disingenuous tradition that bores me.

Color me the opposite of surprised.

Wait - I thought your objection to the Cordoba house was that it wasn't fiscally intelligent?

Oh...no I didn't. I thought that was a smokescreen designed to hide the fact that you don't like Muslims. Guess I was right.

And this is the point where I stop trying to engage you seriously on any level. You're right, Snaike - religious persecution is a complete non-issue. I mean, it's not as if that's the entirety of the reason for the objections to this place. Feel free to argue that Palin and the rest have motivations that DON'T revolve around fear and hate toward someone's peaceful observation of their faith, but don't expect anyone to do anything but mock you.

And let's tackle the secondary, but arguably more troubling aspect of your "argument" here:

What you're saying is that harassment will always happen to other people, so who gives a sh*t? I mean, it's not like it's happening to you.

And the Jews were responsible for all of them, right?

Thanks for this non sequitur.

Okay, let's set aside desegregation and talk about basic human decency - other than financial success or lack thereof, give me a good (meaning logical and defensible) reason for Cordoba to move elsewhere.

So what you're saying is that the presence of an Islamic community center in NYC - one of the largest and most diverse melting pots in the world, with a Muslim population that is also quite large - is the same thing, metaphorically, as yelling fire in a crowded theater?

Have you ever actually spent any time in NYC? I don't mean time in a hotel and walking around Times Square, I mean time on its buses and in its bodegas, among the people you're comparing to a dangerous fire?

Have you ever met a Muslim in your life?

I'm going to guess the answer is no.

As said above: What?

This center faces opposition due to prejudice against the larger Muslim population - a prejudice that is wholly-unjustified. EVERY religion has been protested at one time or another. If I were Jewish, for instance, I'd be seething at the way you've casually dismissed thousands of years of baseless hate as having never happened. As it is, I think your remark is disgusting and shows a lack of any historical, cultural or religious perspective whatsoever.

Which is why people like myself are going to have to bulldoze over people like you, why that has always and will always be the case, and why I'm happy to be the one doing the bulldozing. I am 100% positive that the phrase "it boils down to the emotion overtaking logic and you're not going to convince people anything but what they believe" has come up in defense of every insanely racist, insanely inhumane act ever perpetuated.

A thousand times this. Maybe it is unwise to build Park51 there, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let the pigheaded ignorance of a vocal group of fuckwits dictate terms. This is boldfaced, unashamed, naked intolerance...pure and simple. And it needs to be stomped like a narc at a biker rally.

The fuck is this "victory mosque" shit?

And hey, Snaieke still sucks, imagine that.

See, this is why I don't get how people were calling Obama saying, "I'm not going to comment on the wisdom" some kind of back-pedaling. The "wisdom" of it is so irrelevant as to not merit comment. They have the right to build there, wise decision or not.

And what's funny is that the ones who say the center being there is in bad taste will be the first to say it's fine for that joker to build his gay bar next to the mosque. I guess bad taste only counts when it's your taste that's being offended.

That's exactly right, and pithily put.

Chalk me up as another one with similar feelings. We'll hopefully be able to get a clearer view after November's election and especially after 2012. The Democrats do need to grow some balls but I don't understand how any sane person would want to vote the current Republican party back into power. Our culture has become so ADD lately. "Crap, our problems haven't been fixed in under two years, let's vote back in the ones who did this to us. Oh wait, another non-issue to distract us." Yeah, that will bring stability.

I'd build it just to draw the right-wing terrorists mentioned by whatsisface out of the woodwork. I guess I'm the sort that pushes back, but that's me.

The people who bought the property have said in no uncertain terms that they are not moving to another site. So the haters can suck it.

What kind of a country do we live in where people can just decide to buy property and build something without the explicit and/or implicit permission of people who live thousands of miles away????

...Oh, that's right: A free country.