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Religious persecution in Manhattan - Page 2

post #51 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt M View Post
I'm not the first person to make this observation, but for all his faults, W managed to keep a lid on the anti-Muslim rage in his party. At the very least, he paid lip service to the idea that Muslim citizens were valued members of American society, thereby making it taboo for prominent elected Republicans to say otherwise.
That's due to the Bush oil days - wouldn't do to insult all those family friends.
post #52 of 268
I'm really beginning to love the whole "I believe in freedom of religion but fuck those mooslims" attitude permeating from people who should really know better coming out of the states after all this nonsense.

Looks like the Repugnicans are getting some serious mileage out of this now...

Obama's mosque support hurts Democrats

Quote:
FALLOUT from US President Barack Obama's intervention in controversial plans for a mosque near Ground Zero has enveloped Democrats campaigning for November's mid-term congressional elections.

The most senior Democrat in the Senate, Harry Reid, revealed he was opposed to the mosque being built two blocks from where 2700 people died at the hands of Islamist terrorists on September 11, 2001.

"The First Amendment protects freedom of religion," Senator Reid's spokesperson said. "Senator Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built someplace else."

Other Democrats in tight races for re-election have privately expressed irritation at Mr Obama's apparent support for the project, which had elevated what had been essentially a New York issue into a national controversy.

Referring to Mr Obama's reversal on Saturday from his seemingly unambiguous advocacy for the mosque a day earlier, one Democrat strategist said the President had turned "a moment of political clarity into one of political confusion".

Opinion polls show most Americans oppose the $US110 million ($A123 million) project that would incorporate an interfaith community centre with swimming pool and other facilities to be built on the site of an old clothing factory less than a kilometre from where hijackers flew two passenger jets into the World Trade Centre.

The opposition comes despite two other mosques having stood for decades within four and 12 blocks of the site.

The issue is testing the notion of religious freedom, regarded by Americans as an integral component of the nation's DNA.

Some Democrats have voiced support for Mr Obama's stance, including New York congressman Jerrold Nadler, who said government "has no business deciding whether there should or should not be a Muslim house of worship near Ground Zero".

But Republicans have seized on the issue to claim that Mr Obama is out of touch with mainstream America, while media snapshots of passers-by in Lower Manhattan have recorded a constant refrain: "Not in my neighbourhood.''

How is no one other than seemingly Jon Stewart calling 'bullshit' on this xenophobic nonsense in the US media or political spheres right now?!? Is the US pretty much finished with the better angels of it's nature at this point?
post #53 of 268
It's seem America's "occasional descents into widespread madness" (to borrow a paraphrase) are occurring at an increasing frequency.
post #54 of 268
It just doesn't stop! There's always some really stupid thing a big chunk of Americans are using to prove themselves bigots and/or cowards and/or fools. I saw a sign on TV today; No 9-11 Victory Mosque! Someone was interested enough to go outside and make their voice heard, but not interested enough to find out anything about what they're mad about. It's like watching a 4,583-ring circus! It just doesn't stop!
post #55 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
It's seem America's "occasional descents into widespread madness" (to borrow a paraphrase) are occurring at an increasing frequency.
And amplitude. Consider Glenn Beck.
post #56 of 268
The Dems are getting swiftboated with bullshit fabricated from nothing again. And still they have no idea how to deal with it.
post #57 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMR View Post
The Dems are getting swiftboated with bullshit fabricated from nothing again. And still they have no idea how to deal with it.
THIS.

Seriously... why is this doing so much damage? I don't have millions of dollars, friends in every TV network or an extremely powerful political office from which to draw credibility, but I'm not having ANY trouble rebuffing people that start this argument up around me.

Ball = dropped.
post #58 of 268
This whole non-issue is such a disgrace.

Echoing the previous posters I am aghast that this could develop into this rampant offensive xenophobia offensive that has been unleashed in recent weeks. Whatever happened to public debate?

There is hardly a need to point out all the historical inaccuracies and blatant lies that have been spewed in regard to the community center itself, your constitution and founding fathers and the history of Cordoba to only name the most obvious.

This should not even be an issue about partisanship. After all, your constitution and the federal papers and all that only leave one, and only one, truth on the table. But obviously this is not about intellectual honesty but exploiting the sheeps for the gain of a few. I am appalled at how easy the masses can be led on their noses to act diametrally opposed to their own interests. But if you have a media and political scene that can claim "death panels", "terror babies", "ground-zero-mosque", "tax hikes when Bush tax cuts are over" and other blatant distortions of reality without even the tiniest try to stand against this lies (and make no mistake, they are nothing else), how can you even debate the future of your country in earnest.

Hell, even Obama dropped the ball big time on this one. And don´t even get me started on Harry Reid. Fear is never a good advisor. Ignoring or even selling the very foundation your nation was founded upon to score cheap votes, which won´t happen rather than alienate what´s left of decency, is such a weak policy that equals not only giving in but actively aiding demagouges. What a disappointment and disgrace. This appalling debate is pretty much an epic present for Al-Quaida and everyone that views the US as an enemy or just your typical "anti-american-sentiments". As someone that adored and defended the idea of the United States even in recent years this is coming close to be the straw that breaks the camels back. The slippery slope we entered can not end well.
post #59 of 268
I was offered a job with Reid for Senate earlier in the month but was kind of on the fence about it given that the guy proved to be a huge pussy his entire Senate career outside of the HIR debate. Part of me thought that maybe he deserved a little support and maybe that support might lead him to see the virtues of not being a complete pussy all the time.

Then, yeah, as a fucking Mormon who grew up poor in the Southwest during the post-war period, he somehow didn't have it in him to fight for the First Amendment. FUCK. THAT. GUY. So glad that I did not take that job.
post #60 of 268
The Democrats are afraid to take a stand on anything lest they upset anyone. They're tip-toeing while the Republicans are stomping around.
post #61 of 268
Pussies and assholes. My god, it truly is nothing but pussies and assholes..

How depressing.
post #62 of 268
I enjoy the various people from other countries on this board who consistently look at America and say "WTF? Seriously, WTF?"

I enjoy it because I most always agree with 'em.

Just a word that we're not all morons.
post #63 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
How is no one other than seemingly Jon Stewart calling 'bullshit' on this xenophobic nonsense in the US media or political spheres right now?!?
Olbermann weighed in. Pretty thorough takedown.

I have my qualms about the man — mostly his blustery attempts to be the new Murrow — but when he's on, he's on. "Terrorist chefs? Terrorist point guards??"
post #64 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Blank View Post
Just a word that we're not all morons.
Truly, I can't speak for us all, but I'm almost certain we all know that. We wouldn't even bother lamenting if we didn't.

We grew up on the myths you've sold to yourselves as well remember.
post #65 of 268
My friend from Ohio came to visit NY yesterday and he asked me to take him to Ground Zero and the site of the community center to see what all the fuss was about and be more informed when he went back home to his bigoted family members and neighbors. He was basically like, "This place is a shit hole" referring to both Ground Zero and the surrounding neighborhood. This community center is a bright spot in a bleak part of town.

It is much needed space for kids and community members to gather. It's crazy how a small group of people have managed to turn this into a national debate. If there's one thing that has disappointed me most about Obama's tenure so far is his inability to shape the debate on any issue, whether it be health care, the economy, the gulf oil spill, or this community center. He won the presidency with his great oratory skills and it seems since taking office he's been unbelievably quiet on every issue, only speaking to do damage control (and doing it badly at that). Being bipartisan does not mean never taking a stand. It means that your stance on various issues won't be solely along party lines. You assess each issue at a time and make an informed decision based on facts and not party affiliation. Obama now backing off his stance on the community center to kowtow to opposition is unbelievably frustrating.
post #66 of 268
I could give a shit what America thinks. They don't live in a city where soldiers holding M-16s are commonplace, and people like Sarah Palin would like nothing better than to see this bastion of liberal faggotry nigger kikedom wiped off the planet.

Fuck 'em. They don't get a vote, and I'm sick and tired of people using this city as a political tool when it's convienent or makes for good theater.
post #67 of 268
That there's still just a hole in the ground where the towers once stood should be more infuriating to people than someone wanting to open a Muslim community center.
post #68 of 268
Yeah, but NYC isn't really in America. Except for...

Aah, I can't even parody the shit since I have no idea what, logically, the rethugs are even talking about.
post #69 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
That there's still just a hole in the ground where the towers once stood should be more infuriating to people than someone wanting to open a Muslim community center.
Construction has started on the new building right?
post #70 of 268
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_686099.html

Quote:
Referring to NBC News but highlighting only clips that played on MSNBC, O'Reilly asked: "How does the far left survive in this country? That crew is so hateful, so harmful to the nation, it is amazing they have any platform at all."
...*throws hands up in air, surrenders*
post #71 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
I could give a shit what America thinks. They don't live in a city where soldiers holding M-16s are commonplace, and people like Sarah Palin would like nothing better than to see this bastion of liberal faggotry nigger kikedom wiped off the planet.
Fuck 'em. They don't get a vote, and I'm sick and tired of people using this city as a political tool when it's convienent or makes for good theater.
Back in 2004, while I was a student at Iowa State, Rob Corddry came up for a chat and Q&A. He was talking about when he was covering the Republican convention in NYC, and he told us about when an old lady wearing an American flag hat came up to him and told him "New York should be glad this happened to this city!" She was referring to 9/11. Corddry told us he genuinely wanted to hit her.
post #72 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
That there's still just a hole in the ground where the towers once stood should be more infuriating to people than someone wanting to open a Muslim community center.
Yeah, I'm upset that it took as long as it did to even start the rebuilding process, but there were so many mitigating factors that it was going to take a while, regardless. Nobody was going to just turn over some of the most valuable real-estate in the world.

That being said, I don't know if you've seen pictures lately, but you'd be surprised at how fast building is progressing. It's more than a hole in the ground: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:On...el_7-28-10.JPG

Also, fun wiki fact!

Quote:
On July 14, 2010 it was announced that an 18th century sailing ship had been found at the WTC site, the day prior, while workers were excavating the site of an underground vehicle security center for the future building.[63] The remains of a 32-foot hull and a 100 pound anchor had been found,[64] with archaeologists stating that the ship was likely used as landfill material during the early 19th century to help expand Manhattan, as the hull had been truncated and the beams sawed. Timbers from the ship were removed and sent to a laboratory to try and date the vessel.
post #73 of 268
Uh, it is still a big hole in the ground. There are no structures built yet. What you see in that picture are cranes and material that will be used to build structures. And despite that photo being dated 2009, as of yesterday Ground Zero looks exactly the same.
post #74 of 268
Hahaha I'm a dumbass. This is what I get for coming out of retirement.

I haven't been down there in months, and maybe it's because I'm not by it every day, but the last time I was, the construction seemed like it was progressing, and you could definitely see the skeleton of One World Trade Center.

But yeah, the fact that it won't officially open until more than a decade after the attacks is ridiculous.
post #75 of 268
This isn't just happening in New York.

About 10 miles from where I grew up:

http://www.westkentuckystar.com/News...ue-in-Mayfield

And about 20 minutes from where I live now

http://www.newschannel5.com/global/story.asp?s=12670386


This stuff is happening all over America and there's no convenient 9/11 excuse to trot out as a bullshit defense. The American People need something to channel and focus their rage away from the real problems facing this country and evil Mooslems (and it helps that a black man with a Mooslem-sounding name sits in the big boy chair looking like a do nothing) and immigrants are just the scapegoat du jour.

My biggest fear is that we are heading down a road that's going to lead someplace that nobody wants to end up.
post #76 of 268
Wait, they found the Black Rock at the WTC?
post #77 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
This isn't just happening in New York.

About 10 miles from where I grew up:

http://www.westkentuckystar.com/News...ue-in-Mayfield

And about 20 minutes from where I live now

http://www.newschannel5.com/global/story.asp?s=12670386


This stuff is happening all over America and there's no convenient 9/11 excuse to trot out as a bullshit defense.
Yeah, most of the people I argue with this about tend to ignore that point when I bring it up. Just like Obama's birth certificate and "secret Muslim" background, it's just a convenient cloak for, "We don't approve because these people are brown."
post #78 of 268
It seems all sorts of people are protesting the community center. Two Christian Arabic speaking Egyptian men were at a protest, and I imagine that you can guess what happened.

On This Ground, Zero Tolerance

Quote:
At one point, a portion of the crowd menacingly surrounded two Egyptian men who were speaking Arabic and were thought to be Muslims.

"Go home," several shouted from the crowd.

"Get out," others shouted.

In fact, the two men – Joseph Nassralla and Karam El Masry — were not Muslims at all. They turned out to be Egyptian Coptic Christians who work for a California-based Christian satellite TV station called "The Way." Both said they had come to protest the mosque.

"I'm a Christian," Nassralla shouted to the crowd, his eyes bulging and beads of sweat rolling down his face.

But it was no use. The protesters had become so angry at what they thought were Muslims that New York City police officers had to rush in and pull Nassralla and El Masry to safety.
post #79 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
It seems all sorts of people are protesting the community center. Two Christian Arabic speaking Egyptian men were at a protest, and I imagine that you can guess what happened.

On This Ground, Zero Tolerance
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
We like war, we're a war-like people! We like war because we're good at it!

[...]

Especially if your country is full of brown people. Oh, we like that, don't we, that's our hobby? That's our new job in the world: bombing brown people! Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Libya - you got some brown people in your country - tell 'em to watch the fuck out ... or we'll goddamn bomb them!

But when's the last white people you can remember that we bombed, can you remember -- can you remember ANY white people we've ever bombed? The Germans! They were the only ones, and that's only because they were trying to cut in on our action! They wanted to dominate the world - bullshit, that's our fuckin' job!

Now we only bomb brown people. Not because they're trying to cut in on our action, just because they're *brown*!
Yeah, man... fuck brown people.

This is really weird. If it's a few blocks away who knows, maybe it is much ado about nothing. I can definitely see where building it at the proposed memorial site that was supposed to be where one of the towers stood wouldn't be cool. Then again, I think WTC 1 and 2 ought to built exactly the same with one extra story on each one just as a middle finger to the poeple that perpetrated 9/11. I'm not sure utilizing what, to my understanding, is valuable financial sector real estate for even a gaudy memorial is a good thing.
post #80 of 268
No mosque could possibly offend the eyes and brain as much as Touchdown Jesus did. What an eyesore. Lightning was too good for Touchdown Jesus.
post #81 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun View Post
No mosque could possibly offend the eyes and brain as much as Touchdown Jesus did. What an eyesore. Lightning was too good for Touchdown Jesus.
There is only one Touchdown Jesus and God smote that infidel for it's hubris in thinking it could take away from the glory of God's team.
post #82 of 268
Thanks, thread, for giving us the glorious fucking banner above:




"Obama's mosque?" Holy shit.
post #83 of 268
Governor of Florida? What kind of say would he have in a mosque in New York City? I don't see that being a particularly Florida or federal issue.
post #84 of 268
Just look at the ad, man. It's not just some mosque in NYC; it's the personal mosque of the President of the United States of America. Duh.

Have they started calling it Obamosque yet?
post #85 of 268
Ugh. This ad is at the top of the page now. Doesn't CHUD have say over the type of ads posted on the message board?

post #86 of 268
Huffington Post has ads like those all over, all the time. So I'm guessing no.
post #87 of 268
Every Salem needs its witches.

I will personally escort any Muslim who wishes to visit this community center through its doors and safely inside. The majority of my fellow NYCers would do the same. If some hayseed who thinks NYC should be run more like Wasilla wants to yell at me/throw crap at me while I do it, let them.

Only one of us will be able to clean ourselves via shower after the fact.
post #88 of 268
It's good to see that all of Florida's problems have been solved so that our gubernatorial candidates can focus on building permits in NYC.
post #89 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
It's good to see that all of Florida's problems have been solved so that our gubernatorial candidates can focus on building permits in NYC.
It's a transparent fundraising ploy. "I"m against 'Obama's mosque'! Send me your childrens' college tuition!"
post #90 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
Governor of Florida? What kind of say would he have in a mosque in New York City? I don't see that being a particularly Florida or federal issue.
A lot of retired New Yorkers live in Florida.

You have to understand, this issue isn't about logic or what is right but about emotions. The wound that is 9/11 still hasn't closed for a great many people and you're not going to convince them otherwise.

I disagree that the mosque should be built because it is so wildly unpopular right now that nothing good could come of it. It won't unify a community or change people's emotions and the most likely result would be violence by someone who is emotionally imbalanced and with children possibly in harms way... I just don't see stubbornness as a rational reason to put people in harms way to an extremist. Use eminent domain to take over Rush Limbaugh's place and build it there.
post #91 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
I disagree that the mosque should be built because it is so wildly unpopular right now that nothing good could come of it.
Plenty of good will come from it. It'll show these narrow-minded fuckwits that people aren't going to let their unhinged racist paranoia intimidate them into giving up their rights.

Jesus, let's not do the right thing because it might be unpopular? That's the best you've got?
post #92 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
A lot of retired New Yorkers live in Florida.

You have to understand, this issue isn't about logic or what is right but about emotions. The wound that is 9/11 still hasn't closed for a great many people and you're not going to convince them otherwise.

I disagree that the mosque should be built because it is so wildly unpopular right now that nothing good could come of it. It won't unify a community or change people's emotions and the most likely result would be violence by someone who is emotionally imbalanced and with children possibly in harms way... I just don't see stubbornness as a rational reason to put people in harms way to an extremist. Use eminent domain to take over Rush Limbaugh's place and build it there.
This is terrible logic.

By this same logic, the government should never have desegregated the school systems of the south, since "It won't unify a community or change people's emotions and the most likely result would be violence by someone who is emotionally imbalanced and with children possibly in harms way..."

Arguing for tolerance always incites violence. History bears this out time and again - but bowing before bullies is what cowards do.
post #93 of 268
He actually admitted he's not using logic, or even "what's right." It kind of made my brain hurt to read it.
post #94 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Religious intolerance is an ugly, un-American thing being mainstreamed by corporate puppets like Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich.
Religious intolerance is perpetrated by all people. Ugliness isn't monopolized by any particular creed, party, or belief system. Yeah, this particular issue is an ugly one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
This wouldn't be an issue if we could just be intolerant of all religion.
Surely you mean everyone everywhere, right? Cause I see this ^ all over the boards. I could probably count on one hand the MB members that actually speak up about their religious affiliations round here.
post #95 of 268
Hey, holy shit! A compilation of actual conservatives with a smidgen of sense (including Pat Buchanan?!). However, I'm not sure they actually support the mosque, but hey, it's a start:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0....html?ir=Media

ETA: He doesn't explicitly say the words, but it sure sounds like Scarborough actually supports the mosque.
post #96 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
I disagree that the mosque should be built because it is so wildly unpopular right now that nothing good could come of it. It won't unify a community or change people's emotions and the most likely result would be violence by someone who is emotionally imbalanced and with children possibly in harms way... I just don't see stubbornness as a rational reason to put people in harms way to an extremist. Use eminent domain to take over Rush Limbaugh's place and build it there.
Hip, hip hooray! Here is to the tyranny of majority!
post #97 of 268
Like those stubborn black people who wanted to go to nice schools and ride in the front of the bus. If only they were more considerate!
post #98 of 268
Well Maureen Dowd's sinking the boot into Obama over this this morning. Unfortunately I can't say I disagree with her take...

Obama turns tail and flees in the face of mosque madness

Quote:
MAYBE, for Barack Obama, it depends on what the meaning of the word ''is'' is. When the US President backtracked on his grandiose declaration at a Ramadan celebration at the White House last Friday that Muslims enjoyed freedom of religion in America and had the right to build a mosque and community centre in Lower Manhattan, he offered a Clintonesque parsing.

''I was not commenting, and I will not comment, on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there,'' he said the morning after he commented on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there. ''I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That's what our country is about.''

Let me be perfectly clear, Mr Perfectly Unclear President: You cannot take such a stand on a matter of first principle and then take it back the next morning when, lo and behold, the Republicans attack. What is so frightening about Fox News?

Some critics have said the ultimate victory for Osama bin Laden and the 9/11 hijackers would be to allow a mosque to be built near Ground Zero.

Actually, the ultimate victory for bin Laden and the hijackers is the moral timidity that would ban a mosque from that neighbourhood. Enemies struck at America's heart, but did they also warp America's identity?

I had such deeply felt hopes for your current president. I dreamed of a new FDR. Yet in my quieter more cynical moments I had nightmares of a modern Jimmy Carter.

It seems you poor bastards got the latter. 'Heart breaking' just doesn't cover it really.
post #99 of 268
You can't change Washington.



Washington changes you.
post #100 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
You can't change Washington.



Washington changes you.
That does seem to be the depressing reality Pomp tis true - and when you see how utterly broken Washington has become it really makes me weep for the future of your nation.
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