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Batman: The Long Halloween

post #1 of 29
8/19/10 at 9:07am
Thread Starter 
I'm going to put myself out there. I think The Long Halloween is better than The Dark Knight Returns.

I have always adored this book; the endless Godfather references, the strained relationship between Maroni and Falcone, Dent suspecting Wayne/Batman suspecting Dent, Gordon just wanting his Thanksgiving dinner. It's a tight, dense murder mystery.

There is a "kitchen sink" approach to the book that just seems to work. 90% of Batman's rogue gallery make an appearance and it fits. The Holiday Killer grips Gotham; gangsters, villains and heroes alike and the way all these characters interact with each other is incredible. In one scene Falcone tells Poison Ivy that the Family doesn't like to deal with "her kind".

I'm well aware of Jeph Loeb's standing in most people's mind but he always gets a pass from me because of this.

Am I right? Or crazy as all hell? Is TDK far superior? Or does Year One trump them both? What about Hush? Or The Killing Joke?
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post #2 of 29
8/19/10 at 9:25am
You'll find a pretty heated debate about the merits of the book here

http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php...tman+halloween

I'm a fan of the book, but I'm not a comic book guy, at all. I just like the sparse storytelling and I think the art style is amazing.
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post #3 of 29
8/19/10 at 9:35am
I've always liked when Sale melds his art with another artist's look (Romita in Spider-Man: Blue, and Kirby in Hulk: Grey, specifically). And he made Catwoman: When In Rome feel like some kind of dark spin on an Audrey Hepburn Technicolor film, which I don't know how you pull off in a comic, but it was cool looking. I don't think any of the stories hold up all that well.
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post #4 of 29
8/19/10 at 9:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
You'll find a pretty heated debate about the merits of the book here

http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php...tman+halloween

I'm a fan of the book, but I'm not a comic book guy, at all. I just like the sparse storytelling and I think the art style is amazing.
Thanks Spike, I searched high and low for a previous thread.
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post #5 of 29
8/19/10 at 10:24am
I like the story up until the final reveal, which is just a ridiculous "What a twist!" ending. The art is fantastic, though, and it's a pretty fun action/mystery story otherwise. It's not anywhere near Year One or Dark Knight Returns in my esteem, though.
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post #6 of 29
8/19/10 at 10:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post
I like the story up until the final reveal, which is just a ridiculous "What a twist!" ending. The art is fantastic, though, and it's a pretty fun action/mystery story otherwise. It's not anywhere near Year One or Dark Knight Returns in my esteem, though.
The art I love. Especially the splash pages. I will say, of the three Year One is my favourite, I just read TLH most recently.
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post #7 of 29
8/19/10 at 10:40am
Dark Knight definitely had the bigger impact and is the more significant story, but I find myself re-reading Long Halloween more often.
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post #8 of 29
8/19/10 at 10:52am
Brief, sleep-addled derail: I think Year One has shaken out as Miller's Batman classic. I enjoy the hell out of The Dark Knight Returns, but it's satire through and through. Year One has heart.
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post #9 of 29
8/19/10 at 11:45am
I seem to recall liking the sequel, "Dark Victory", more than "Long Halloween", but it's been ages since I read either one.
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post #10 of 29
8/19/10 at 11:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Brief, sleep-addled derail: I think Year One has shaken out as Miller's Batman classic. I enjoy the hell out of The Dark Knight Returns, but it's satire through and through. Year One has heart.
I'm glad at that. I'll whisper this but I'm really not a fan of Miller. TDK is a landmark title and informed much of what followed but it was pure satire just as you said and dare it say it self indulgent. I can never seperate Miller from what I'm reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
I seem to recall liking the sequel, "Dark Victory", more than "Long Halloween", but it's been ages since I read either one.
I have a birthday coming up and have been hinting to anyone who would listen that I would fancy Dark Victory. I still haven't read it.
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post #11 of 29
8/19/10 at 1:02pm
THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is a landmark, but it's a mess. An entertaining mess, sure, but a mess nonetheless. BATMAN: YEAR ONE is far superior (not that it is above criticism, either; Wayne/Batman falls very flat there).

THE LONG HALLOWEEN, for all its shortcomings, is more elegantly conceived, written, and drawn than something like THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. I'd be content tagging it as the best of the Batman comics, though YEAR ONE could also very easily claim that title.
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post #12 of 29
8/19/10 at 1:04pm
The Long Halloween is the better comic, but Dark Victory has the better reveal at the end. Both, however, depict the World's Greatest Detective struggling with a murder mystery FOR A YEAR, with murderers that kill on specific dates. Why not, you know, hide all the mobsters and cops on a certain day each month?
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post #13 of 29
8/19/10 at 1:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post
THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is a landmark, but it's a mess. An entertaining mess, sure, but a mess nonetheless. BATMAN: YEAR ONE is far superior (not that it is above criticism, either; Wayne/Batman falls very flat there).

THE LONG HALLOWEEN, for all its shortcomings, is more elegantly conceived, written, and drawn than something like THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. I'd be content tagging it as the best of the Batman comics, though YEAR ONE could also very easily claim that title.
I'm surprised how divisive it is. I always thought there was an element of Emperors New Clothes about TDK, it's not the done thing to dislike it. You mention the art, Miller's style literally distracts me when I'm reading The Dark Knight Returns.. I've been doing a marathon lately; The Killing Joke, Joker, Arkham Asylum. I've never been a DC guy but the big Batman titles always get my attention.

One of the things I champion about Nolan's films is that he brought us the Jim Gordon from Year One and The Long Halloween. Any title with a lot of Jim gets my vote. I'm rambling now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
The Long Halloween is the better comic, but Dark Victory has the better reveal at the end. Both, however, depict the World's Greatest Detective struggling with a murder mystery FOR A YEAR, with murderers that kill on specific dates. Why not, you know, hide all the mobsters and cops on a certain day each month?
That's a fair point, maybe everyone could have locked themselves in a bank vault every holiday! If I may, just to preempt can I respectfully request we keep Dark Victory spoilers under wraps.
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post #14 of 29
8/19/10 at 1:31pm
If I squint and take a step back, looking at the broad strokes, I really like The Long Halloween as a story. But ultimately, I'm not very big on it anymore. I liked it at first, but I've cooled on it a lot. Especially the dialog. I think a lot of the dialog writing is just awful.

And I'll agree to Year One being Miller's ultimate Batman triumph. The Dark Knight Returns is amazing in many ways, but I'm kind of with Phil in that I find the satire puts is just under Year One. Also, the art in Year One helps to put it over for me, although I'd still keep it there based on story alone.

I can't bring myself to read any of the other Loeb Batman stuff.
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post #15 of 29
8/19/10 at 1:35pm
Hush is fun as spectacle, but there's no plot. Hush himself is an incredibly weak villain. And his ultimate goal is ambiguous...he wants to fuck with Bruce/Batman? That's it?

Will keep details to a minimum on DV, M'sP.
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post #16 of 29
8/19/10 at 2:07pm
DARK VICTORY is a decent follow-up. It's not quite as engaging (even Sale's art doesn't seem to be as fine as it was in LONG HALLOWEEN), but it's a fun read.
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post #17 of 29
8/20/10 at 7:42am
Huh, what a coincidence. I just read The Long Halloween. Didn't like it at all. The story is a mess. The concept is good, even great but the execution is a failure. Almost nothing makes sense. The only good parts were the Bruce/Selina Batman/Catwoman interactions and Joker being Joker and then disappearing into the ether. And for all the, justified, criticisms the movies have taken for not showing Batman's detective skills, this may be even worse. "OMG he filed down the serial number on the gun and there are no prints. It's the perfect crime. I guess I should go around and ask various members of my rogue's gallery who Holiday is."

And the final issue. The twist. The less said about it the better. I'm surprised people are putting this on the same level as Year One, The Dark Knight Returns or The Killing Joke.
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post #18 of 29
8/20/10 at 10:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
Huh, what a coincidence. I just read The Long Halloween. Didn't like it at all. The story is a mess. The concept is good, even great but the execution is a failure. Almost nothing makes sense. The only good parts were the Bruce/Selina Batman/Catwoman interactions and Joker being Joker and then disappearing into the ether. And for all the, justified, criticisms the movies have taken for not showing Batman's detective skills, this may be even worse. "OMG he filed down the serial number on the gun and there are no prints. It's the perfect crime. I guess I should go around and ask various members of my rogue's gallery who Holiday is."

And the final issue. The twist. The less said about it the better. I'm surprised people are putting this on the same level as Year One, The Dark Knight Returns or The Killing Joke.
Stelios is displeased. I can't argue with you really. I think Joeypants said earlier that doesn't hold up under close scrutiny and that's true. The twist especially isn't really a twist, when Alberto screams "I am Holiday" at the end it doesn't really mean much. I think part of my enjoyment love for it is the fall of Dent and the last days of the Mafia rule of Gotham. I remember reading that regarding the Mob's hold on Gotham TLH started as a way to close what Year One started. Obviously whether it did so successfully is up for discussion.
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post #19 of 29
8/20/10 at 11:00am
As much as I like Long Halloween and Dark Victory, the best Loeb/Sale pairing is Superman For All Seasons.
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post #20 of 29
8/20/10 at 11:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
As much as I like Long Halloween and Dark Victory, the best Loeb/Sale pairing is Superman For All Seasons.
A friend recommended that, I may give it a go.
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post #21 of 29
8/20/10 at 12:30pm
I rather like TLH and DV, and I agree that "Year One" is much, much, MUCH better than DKR.
Im pleased that "Dark Knight Strikes Again" hanst been mentioned here. God dammit, i hate that one.
Anyone here read "Batman: Black & White"; its has some cool stories in it, and Gaiman's one is really great.
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post #22 of 29
8/20/10 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
As much as I like Long Halloween and Dark Victory, the best Loeb/Sale pairing is Superman For All Seasons.
QFT.

I've never read a better Superman story.
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post #23 of 29
8/20/10 at 12:38pm
It evokes that sprawling sense of Americana that the Smallville section of Donner's Superman had.
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post #24 of 29
8/20/10 at 1:31pm
Yeah, FOR ALL SEASONS is pretty damn triumphant. I'm a fan of THE LONG HALLOWEEN as well. Interesting take on YEAR ONE vs. TDKR... I prefer TDKR mostly because although it's satirical, Batman's victories are really great in it.
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post #25 of 29
8/20/10 at 1:46pm
Thread Starter 
FOR ALL SEASONS is getting some love here, I'll have to get on that. The only Superman title I've ever loved is "What Ever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" by Alan Moore
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post #26 of 29
8/20/10 at 4:47pm
You should also check out Grant Morrison's "All Star Superman" if you're looking for good Superman stories.
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post #27 of 29
8/20/10 at 5:16pm
See... I feel like All-Star Superman is a tad overrated. Yes, it's a very good Superman story (although I've only read volume 1), but is it really THAT good? I mean, Morrison makes Silver Age stuff be cool instead of stupid (mostly), and it's very well-written, and the art is BEAUTIFUL... but I honestly don't get why people are practically salivating over it.

Is there just something I'm missing? Maybe I need to read volume 2...
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post #28 of 29
8/20/10 at 5:23pm
Are you talking about collected issues when you say Vol 1 and Vol 2? I know Morrison did one complete arc, and though I got a little tired of the Bizarro/Zibarro stuff, the ending was kind of fantastic.
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post #29 of 29
8/20/10 at 5:46pm
Issue 10 of All-Star Superman is probably the finest single-issue superhero story ever written. I was underwhelmed by All-Star at first, but eventually fell in love with it, whereas I've cooled on "For All Seasons" considerably. I still like it, but I don't love it or return to it as much as I used to, where I still flip through my All-Star singles with startling regularity.
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