CHUD.com Community › Forums › THE MAIN SEWER › CHUD.COM Main › THE DEVIN'S ADVOCATE: THE BOX OFFICE - WE'RE DOING IT WRONG
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

THE DEVIN'S ADVOCATE: THE BOX OFFICE - WE'RE DOING IT WRONG

post #1 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:30pm
Thread Starter 
The numbers are a waste of time. Here's why.

More...
Reply
post #2 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:33pm
good write up and some good theories. I'll love to see you dig a bit deeper in this. For myself, box-office gross means jack. All that matters is if I leave the theater pleased. Anything else is just a dick measuring contest.
Reply
post #3 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:34pm
Great piece, as always, though this part baffled me a bit:

Quote:
And what's been the fallout from Avatar? Where's that slew of hard scifi movies we all thought would come from the movie?
I'm perfectly prepared to accept that someone thought that was going to happen, but I'm not sure I saw anything like a popular groundswell to that effect. What did I miss?
Reply
post #4 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:35pm
I'm thinking it might be due to the expense of Avatar that's kind of slowed down the slew of copy cats.
Reply
post #5 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:35pm
Quote:
And what's been the fallout from Avatar?
Shitty 3D post-conversion in hopes of a bigger BO take.
Reply
post #6 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Shitty post-conversion to ride on 3D coat-tails in hopes of a bigger BO take.
Right, which is another example of Hollywood NOT taking away the lesson we figured they would take away.
Reply
post #7 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Right, which is another example of Hollywood NOT taking away the lesson we figured they would take away.
Exactly. Fortunately, indie film makers are still putting out evocative original scifi on a budget.
Reply
post #8 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Shitty 3D post-conversion in hopes of a bigger BO take.
Exactly. I never thought for a second that Avatar would lead to more SF epics. It was clear from its booming success that the lesson Hollywood learned from it was EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE 3D.
Reply
post #9 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:44pm
I've always wondered why the hell we aren't more focused on the admissions number vs. dollar signs. I mean, I know the answer of course. It's just so silly.
Reply
post #10 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:46pm
Yeah, it never quite made sense to me that all the other forms of consumable entertainment base success on the number of units while film still clings to revenue. Even sports trumpet attendance figures rather than the amount of money they generate.

I wonder if Hollywood is so eager to hoist up the dollar figures as a way of justifying some of the outrageous salaries and production costs. Paying someone $20 million a film doesn't look so bad when you can brag that that film grossed $300 million.
Reply
post #11 of 34
8/23/10 at 3:15pm
Yeah, the lede is a little buried, but Devin eventually gets there. I have never understood how Hollywood gets away with tracking by dollars when every other form of media tracks by units sold. It makes no sense, and is kind of shameless.
Reply
post #12 of 34
8/23/10 at 3:18pm
Unless it's that, unlike with a book or a DVD, you don't actual get a physical object when you pay for a movie ticket. There's no units to sell.
Reply
post #13 of 34
8/23/10 at 3:20pm
It's probably due to the cost of movies. I don't hear people talking about how much an album or book cost to make. That does happen with movies, and the dollar amount it makes, makes it easier to understand if it makes a profit or not. That's my guess anyways.
Reply
post #14 of 34
8/23/10 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Unless it's that, unlike with a book or a DVD, you don't actual get a physical object when you pay for a movie ticket. There's no units to sell.
The ticket is the unit.
Reply
post #15 of 34
8/23/10 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teitr Styrr View Post
It's probably due to the cost of movies. I don't hear people talking about how much an album or book cost to make. That does happen with movies, and the dollar amount it makes, makes it easier to understand if it makes a profit or not. That's my guess anyways.
The cost to produce videogames is extremely varied and can reach very high numbers. Yet their success is tracked predominantly by units sold.
Reply
post #16 of 34
8/23/10 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Unless it's that, unlike with a book or a DVD, you don't actual get a physical object when you pay for a movie ticket. There's no units to sell.
Nah, then they would do the same with sports.
Reply
post #17 of 34
8/23/10 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspberry Leper View Post
Nah, then they would do the same with sports.
Excellent point. Although I think the music industry tracks concert success by total revenue. Maybe it's just the consistently struggling sectors of the entertainment industry that try to put a good face on things by going with dollar amounts, inflation be damned.
Reply
post #18 of 34
8/23/10 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devin
And what's been the fallout from Avatar? Where's that slew of hard scifi movies we all thought would come from the movie? They're not making it out of development hell, near as I can tell.
That might be fair if Avatar were a hard sci-fi movie, but it absolutely isn't. It's what people (somewhat annoyingly) call "sci-fantasy" -- the film isn't about the scientific intricacies of body swapping. The tech is just a vehicle to introduce us to a strange environment.
Reply
post #19 of 34
8/23/10 at 3:58pm
Nice write up, D. The Advocates are gonna be sorely missed around here.
Reply
post #20 of 34
8/23/10 at 4:37pm
Good advocate, its the article I'll miss most. The thing about books and cds, they all cost the same. But now we have Imax and 3d. More expensive something is the less it sells, like Imax, and thats not something reflected in ticket sales. But I agree the best way to compare is through ticket sales since the prices don't warry enough. If one does use boxoffce to compare it certainly has to be adjusted for inflation otherwise not much point.
Reply
post #21 of 34
8/23/10 at 4:45pm
Books and CDs definitely do not all cost the same.
Reply
post #22 of 34
8/23/10 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teitr Styrr View Post
It's probably due to the cost of movies. I don't hear people talking about how much an album or book cost to make. That does happen with movies, and the dollar amount it makes, makes it easier to understand if it makes a profit or not. That's my guess anyways.
But you do hear how much X superstar-athlete made in his recent contract.
Reply
post #23 of 34
8/23/10 at 4:50pm
Isn't the reason we're getting shitty post conversion 3d mainly because development already started on the films so its the only way they could do 3d? Also I never thought Avatar would lead to a slew of hard sci fi films, thats just wishful thinking.
Reply
post #24 of 34
8/23/10 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabster View Post
Isn't the reason we're getting shitty post conversion 3d mainly because development already started on the films so its the only way they could do 3d? Also I never thought Avatar would lead to a slew of hard sci fi films, thats just wishful thinking.
Yeah, I read a lot of (too many) posts about Avatar, and I don't remember that idea being all that prevalent. Somebody probably said it at some point (since someone somewhere said everything about Avatar) but it was never a big issue.
Reply
post #25 of 34
8/23/10 at 5:26pm
I would love to find the correlation, if any, to the concept of "Director Jail" in relation to box office numbers. How much of a filmmaker's career rests on his ability to make bank at the box office and how much depends on his reputation in the community re: easy to work with, always on budget, not an asshole, etc. That's the only time box office numbers become "interesting" is when and if they have the power to harm/help someone's career.
Reply
post #26 of 34
8/23/10 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
But you do hear how much X superstar-athlete made in his recent contract.
There is no other viable way to compare salary (be it athletes or actors) though. It's different than physical or consumable entertainment.
Reply
post #27 of 34
8/23/10 at 8:29pm
It could very well be a "QWERTY" phenomenon. I know that the cost of television licensing is determined by box office take, and I would imagine that the same numbers are built into a lot of production and talent contracts as well. Changing the system would mean changing the way media companies calibrate their business routine and that may be too much trouble to change at this point.

Personally, I'd like to see both for a number of reasons. Primarily it'd be interesting to track attendance with price inflation and 3D.
Reply
post #28 of 34
8/23/10 at 8:37pm
Devin,

Good ADVOCATE, you make some rather astute points. I hope that someone in a position of responsibility at a studio considers them one day. I always thought that TICKETS SOLD probably gave you a more accurate picture of what audiences are interested in than the amount of money something makes

PS As for AVATAR's impact... Well, I can't imagine there were many people who thought it would be more sci fi movies. D9, with it's oscar nod, probably had more of an impact on cinematic scifi than AVATAR ever did or will. The elephant in the room of course is the 3D Revolution. Cinema has been forever changed, and now there is no going back. 3D TV is coming, and there are more 3D screens now in this nation than ever before. More immersion is the future, not less, and James Cameron and the success of AVATAR kick started the whole thing. AVATAR's impact is massive and a milestone in cinema history. In the end, the 3D Revolution is quite frankly as significant as the advent of sound, and makes a few years of studios taking gambles on sci fi seem totally inconsequential in comparison. The the way we watch movies is moving closer to sci fi.
Reply
post #29 of 34
8/23/10 at 8:43pm
I don't know, the numbers would still exist internally for the studios to make syndication and percentage deals on. Really the box office numbers are a way to justify the absurd cost of making a movie today, while simultaneously shoving how much money the all make in our collective face. Right before they start complaining to creators about how they didn't actually make any money on their movie.
Reply
post #30 of 34
8/23/10 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
I would love to find the correlation, if any, to the concept of "Director Jail" in relation to box office numbers. How much of a filmmaker's career rests on his ability to make bank at the box office and how much depends on his reputation in the community re: easy to work with, always on budget, not an asshole, etc.
I would love to read some bite on this subject.
Reply
post #31 of 34
8/23/10 at 10:02pm
Good point. Surely both the gross and the ticket sales could be combined into some kind of useful formula. Seems ridiculous that this information isn't out there somewhere.
Reply
post #32 of 34
8/23/10 at 10:16pm
Maybe it is as simple as a lot fewer people are going to the movies nowadays and the number of tickets sold would be really underwhelming. Did you ever look at an "all time adjusted box office list"? You'd maybe get one movie a year cracking the top 50. That's not sexy.
Reply
post #33 of 34
8/24/10 at 3:01am
Hey, Colin Geddes ... I love that guy. It pains me that I won't be going to the Midnight Madness shows he programs at the Toronto Film Fest this year.
Reply
post #34 of 34
8/24/10 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspberry Leper View Post
Maybe it is as simple as a lot fewer people are going to the movies nowadays and the number of tickets sold would be really underwhelming. Did you ever look at an "all time adjusted box office list"? You'd maybe get one movie a year cracking the top 50. That's not sexy.
Yeah, I've been asking the same questions Devin's talked about in the article for years and what you say here is what I've always figured the answer is. The media loves a "Biggest Movie Of All Time" story more than it cares about any kind of truth.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: CHUD.COM Main
CHUD.com Community › Forums › THE MAIN SEWER › CHUD.COM Main › THE DEVIN'S ADVOCATE: THE BOX OFFICE - WE'RE DOING IT WRONG