Supernatural Season 6 - Page 14

Then there should be a line once in a while like "oh man I was up late last night looking for that pesky anti christ".

Really weird reactions to the finale. Soured you on the show? Come on... The Lovecraft episode kinda sucked but the ending was exactly as it should have been. They've already done the apocalypse, the only way to make the show interesting going forward is by making it more personal.

As far as the boys being hypocrites goes, they've been written like that from day one.

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Originally Posted by Evi 

As far as the boys being hypocrites goes, they've been written like that from day one.

Yeah, I'm really surprised that this is apparently the tipping point for people to get fed up with Dean's hypocrisy.  This is the same guy that spent all of season 2 complaining about how his dad sold his soul for him, only to go out and do the exact same thing once it was Sam's life on the line. 

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Originally Posted by BubWilliams 

The show is about the Winchesters, despite Castiel being a main character, the war in heaven stuff didn't need to be shown.

I agree with this somewhat, but considering how important it became in the finale, I do think they botched the execution in integrating the heaven storyline into the overall plot. They've always rushed into the finale, but this year was especially egregious...at the very least, we needed to know the stakes...souls as energy sources wasn't working for me...

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Originally Posted by Evi 

Really weird reactions to the finale. Soured you on the show? Come on... The Lovecraft episode kinda sucked but the ending was exactly as it should have been. They've already done the apocalypse, the only way to make the show interesting going forward is by making it more personal.

 

As far as the boys being hypocrites goes, they've been written like that from day one.

The finale in itself was OK. It's throughout the season that I started falling out of love with the show.

And as far as the hypocrisy goes, these last few episodes went past the tipping point. The boys never were consistent but breaking your own rules out of depseration, as they usually did, is one thing. When Cas, who went out of his way to help and protect them, asks from them to trust him and have his back for once, what does Dean do? Become the hypocritical asshole other hypocritical assholes aspire to be and spits in his face. I kept hoping in vain that Cas would go "Fuck you insect!" and go Rikki-Oh on his ass.

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Originally Posted by stelios 

The finale in itself was OK. It's throughout the season that I started falling out of love with the show.

 

I understand why people feel that way, for me at least the main weakness of the season was the mythology. You could feel them struggling to keep the show relevant once they'd basically tied up all the storylines, but at least it wasn't some sort X-Files-like disaster where everything that was good about the show went to shit. In fact, a few of this season's episodes are up there with the best of the run. And they ended on a really ambitious note that's got great potential to pay off, so I'm hoping they pull it off.

There's no question that Dean was being kind of a prideful dick, I just don't think it was particularly against character. It's pretty telling that almost every scene that had Cas trying to explain himself excluded Sam, because Sam's the type of guy who probably would've understood.

EDIT: what the hell is with these white quote windows?

A few weeks back, I genuinely thought that the show had fooled me. That they’d somehow created a long-con with their overall story arc and it was going to lead to a great finale. It turns out that the few moments of greatness and interesting ideas were less an overarching plan and more a desperate bid to pull the show out a tailspin. You can almost see the show straining to leap through all the hurdles the really inconsistent season set up and even the finale seemed a little off.

It’s like the writers really couldn’t work out what to do with the Raphael/Castiel conflict (which had been simmering for at least two seasons) and just shrugged it off. Seriously the ending was so like something out of a Japanese RPG that I expected Castiel to sprout one wing and mutate into some hideous god-monster before doing 9999 damage to the Winchesters.

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Originally Posted by stelios 

The finale in itself was OK. It's throughout the season that I started falling out of love with the show.

 

And as far as the hypocrisy goes, these last few episodes went past the tipping point. The boys never were consistent but breaking your own rules out of depseration, as they usually did, is one thing. When Cas, who went out of his way to help and protect them, asks from them to trust him and have his back for once, what does Dean do? Become the hypocritical asshole other hypocritical assholes aspire to be and spits in his face. I kept hoping in vain that Cas would go "Fuck you insect!" and go Rikki-Oh on his ass. 

See, I honestly think if Cas had properly called Dean on it, then it wouldn't have been so glaring. I wasn't expecting Cas to flip out, but after asking him to trust him for the fourth time, I would have like to have seen him lose his patience.

Supernatural was always good at calling attention to it's own, I don't want to say plot holes, but inconsistancies. Ironically it was usually Dean doing it.

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Originally Posted by Evi 

 

EDIT: what the hell is with these white quote windows?

I KNOW, RIGHT?!
 

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Originally Posted by Spike Marshall 
Seriously the ending was so like something out of a Japanese RPG that I expected Castiel to sprout one wing and mutate into some hideous god-monster before doing 9999 damage to the Winchesters.

Oh thats a stupid thing to say..............theres no budget for that.
 

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Originally Posted by Grace 

Yeah, I'm really surprised that this is apparently the tipping point for people to get fed up with Dean's hypocrisy.  This is the same guy that spent all of season 2 complaining about how his dad sold his soul for him, only to go out and do the exact same thing once it was Sam's life on the line. 

 

I guess I saw that initially as some kind of growth on the part of the character. As in, he doesn't resent his dad anymore after realizing why his dad did what he did. This whole thing with Ben, Lisa and Cas seems completely left-field. As if the demands of the story are forcing the character to act in a reckless and selfish way. Yeah, I suppose part of them have always been hypocrites or at least too dumb to realize how hypocritical they're being, but this just seems too obvious and it's distracting. At the very least, it's making me question why I should bother rooting for them. These guys (or at least Dean) aren't even on the side of doing good anymore, just on some blood vendetta against everything supernatural, even though the world they're seeing every fucking day is blatantly more complex than that. It's like a subtle shift into bad writing, not writing about bad characters.

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Originally Posted by Pop Zeus At the very least, it's making me question why I should bother rooting for them. These guys (or at least Dean) aren't even on the side of doing good anymore, just on some blood vendetta against everything supernatural, even though the world they're seeing every fucking day is blatantly more complex than that. It's like a subtle shift into bad writing, not writing about bad characters.

If it were a simple case of "Sam and Dean refuse to help Castiel because he's working with Crowley" then I could understand that, but I felt like the circumstances were much more complex than that.  Cas had been lying to and spying on them (not to mention just acting pretty cold in general) all year, only to turn around once he got caught and demand unwavering support of an extremely risky plan.  And it's not like they immediately told him to fuck himself, they offered to help him find another way and he refused.  Maybe Dean was being harsh, but, emotionally, at least, I thought the justification was there.

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Originally Posted by Grace 

If it were a simple case of "Sam and Dean refuse to help Castiel because he's working with Crowley" then I could understand that, but I felt like the circumstances were much more complex than that.  Cas had been lying to and spying on them (not to mention just acting pretty cold in general) all year, only to turn around once he got caught and demand unwavering support of an extremely risky plan.  And it's not like they immediately told him to fuck himself, they offered to help him find another way and he refused.  Maybe Dean was being harsh, but, emotionally, at least, I thought the justification was there.

Ehh maybe but should you really refuse to stand by someone on an issue like thi sover something so petty? They offered to help him find another way but as it turns out there is no other way. No worse Sam moment than when Castiel tells him that he yanked him out of hell and Sam replies :and you didn't do a very good job of it". REALLY? Fuck what an asshole. Not to mention once they did find out Castiel did everything but suck Dean's dick to convince them.

Man oh man, how quickly we forget the emotional core of the show from season's one and two, particularly in how it regards to Ben and Lisa's fate.  I'm pretty damn confident in saying that I believe that Dean didn't have them wiped for his own, selfish reasons (i,e. so he didn't have to worry about them) instead doing it for their own good for two very specific reasons that fit perfectly with the shows over-riding themes.  1) to ensure they could live their lives 'safely' by removing the knowledge of the 'supernatural' side of life (I also infer that Dean's "favor" from Cas included ongoing protection for them, someone mentioned a 'Witness Protection' idea earlier in the tread...and, given Dean's level of concern for them, I feel it's a reasonable assumption) regardless of the personal cost to Dean - who has now lost his chance for his own 'normal' life. 2) After watching Ben running around with a shotgun, zapping a demon, all at about the age that Dean started down the Hunters road, at his fathers insistence, and seeing Ben come within inches of losing his own mother to a demon attack (this sounding familiar to any of you), I completely believe that the choice was made to prevent Ben from having the hunters life foisted upon him,

Still think that was a selfish decision that doesn't follow the characters past choices?  Desperate...yes, Shortsighted...definitely.  But those are also hallmark motivations that have run throughout the show and I think, fit in perfectly with the overall story arc.

Now, as to the hipocracy of the boys refusing to support Cas, I also feel that fits in well with the stary so far.  These two have been true proponents of the 'Path of Expediency' for the entire series.  "Family is Everything", "You don't lie to Family", etc, except, ya know, when they really NEED to lie to their family, or decive them, or to go off and do stuff that they know their family wouldn't approve of...  Again, desperation, short-sightedness, and the ends justifty the means.  This time, however..they're wrong.  Cas was right...the end did justify the means, but the boys always are convinced of their moral high ground and refused to support him...whoops.

I'm really hoping that season 7 will not centre around the 'war against Cas" but rather the 'quest for Cas's redemption'...although please God...no 'yellow crayons' or 'green army-men'!

Oh, and Yoggoth or Hastur or whatever the hell Bobby's Great Old One's girlfriends name was, did indeed, bump off Lovecraft.  Her line after Bobby asked her if she did it was; "Puu-lease, he couldn't write 'Hello'."  Which I took to mean his death was no real lose, not that she didn't do it...IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Badass 

Man oh man, how quickly we forget the emotional core of the show from season's one and two, particularly in how it regards to Ben and Lisa's fate.  I'm pretty damn confident in saying that I believe that Dean didn't have them wiped for his own, selfish reasons (i,e. so he didn't have to worry about them) instead doing it for their own good for two very specific reasons that fit perfectly with the shows over-riding themes.  1) to ensure they could live their lives 'safely' by removing the knowledge of the 'supernatural' side of life (I also infer that Dean's "favor" from Cas included ongoing protection for them, someone mentioned a 'Witness Protection' idea earlier in the tread...and, given Dean's level of concern for them, I feel it's a reasonable assumption) regardless of the personal cost to Dean - who has now lost his chance for his own 'normal' life. 2) After watching Ben running around with a shotgun, zapping a demon, all at about the age that Dean started down the Hunters road, at his fathers insistence, and seeing Ben come within inches of losing his own mother to a demon attack (this sounding familiar to any of you), I completely believe that the choice was made to prevent Ben from having the hunters life foisted upon him,

Right I agree with all of that except at the end of the day the demons, specifically Crowley, know who they are. Them not knowing about demons is actually worse because now they don't have any defenses at all if something were to show up and attack them again. The witness protection thing was never stated or even hinted at slightly. And even it is true isn't there always some creature, like say the king of hell that can figure that shit out. Also something I just thought of, how far does the memory wipe go? Ben and Lisa don't remember Dean but what about all the people that cam into contact with him over the year? What I mean is it's going to be akward when she goes out to get the paper and the neighbor is all "hey where is that guy who has been living with you for a year? Ya know he works with my husband?"  

Lets call it what it really is, the writers knew they were shity characters that got in the way of Dean hunting but that couldn't just forget about them because their importance got built up............or could they? The they did a lazy compromise. Rather then giving them some sort of reasonable exit they erased their memory and Sam is to never bring up their names again. So for all purposes they are gone forever and for some reason no demons will ever attack them again.
 

That's simply not what I got from it. For all intents and purposes they had already been written out of the show. They could've never been mentioned again and I wouldn't have given it a second thought. So I felt that the compromise was actually an implicit admission that Dean had, for better or worse, become his dad and realised that he was NEVER getting out of the life. Sure, the demon thing is a plot-hole but there's no better option. Leaving them like this essentially leaves Lisa with the memory of having been possessed, Ben with the memory of being a murderer and both of them with a constant fear for their lives.

Also, we don't know that demons WON'T ever attack them again. There's always the possibility that they'll still be brought back into the story.

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Originally Posted by Evi 

That's simply not what I got from it. For all intents and purposes they had already been written out of the show. They could've never been mentioned again and I wouldn't have given it a second thought. So I felt that the compromise was actually an implicit admission that Dean had, for better or worse, become his dad and realised that he was NEVER getting out of the life. Sure, the demon thing is a plot-hole but there's no better option. Leaving them like this essentially leaves Lisa with the memory of having been possessed, Ben with the memory of being a murderer and both of them with a constant fear for their lives.

 

Also, we don't know that demons WON'T ever attack them again. There's always the possibility that they'll still be brought back into the story.

Nope they weren't written out of the show. There was still a need for closure on the issue. I don't even care about those characters but even I know that you can't just leave that issue unresolved. The writers needed to get rid of them once and for all which is why Sam can never bring them up. And of course they won't be brought back. Erasing their memory and then bringing them back would seriously make me question their shit. Whats left to mine out of that fiasco? Especially when they don't remember anything? 

And as far as Ben remembering being a murderer and Lisa remembering the possession, couldn't Castiel have just erased that part? Or how about erasing Dean but making them remember demons somehow by placing in a false memory. I mean when you are dealing with a being that can do pretty much anything to humans the sky is the limit.  Again lazy lazy lazy. Or just odn't bring them in, or better yet just fucking kill them. Then at least Dean would have a leg to stand on when he was angry with Castiel.