Serious Question. - Page 2

I'm going to pretend I misread this and have several.

"But Honey, I have to. Ryan told me to."

Let me rephrase: Have a beer on me tonight, Bucho. Then have some whiskey followed by another beer, another shot of whiskey and finally more beer.

I would feel a little taken advantage of, but it might also be kind of a turn-on. And hey, the advantage is, no chance of accidentally impregnating them. YEAH!

That this would bother a lot of people for various reasons is all the foreknowledge one should require. It's just common courtesy to give someone a heads up in that area.

That second paragraph is interesting but I think skates outside of my point in a way that I'm having a hard time articulating. We're dealing with social norms, expectations and courtesy. I don't think that example deals with those things in the same way and I'm hesitant try but I'll give it a shot.

A transsexual is the exception rather than the norm. It is silly and unrealistic for people to start changing the way they interact with everyone for that 1/10,000 chance that they might meet a transsexual and not know it. As a transsexual it's on you to take on that little bit of extra responsibility and acknowledge that this does bother a lot of people for various reasons. It would be very decent of you to be up front about such things.

But there's the idea that a transexual should tell people they are so as not to upset people, and there's the idea of whether being upset by it is actually rational. I just feel that saying 'they should tell people immediately' is really othering.

I think there is a disconnect going on between one night stands and relationships. One has no need for a basis of trust that most people desire in the other.

But why should it bother people?

Please let me know what social norms one should expect from a one night stand (especially one in which you go into it with zero expectation of seeing that person again).

I guess it's too much to ask that people just grow up and learn not to have casual sex (especially casual sex with expectations).

I'd have sex with a transsexual before I'd have sex with somebody who owns a Collective Soul album. That isn't even a joke.

Fixed

ETA: CASUAL SEX!!

Can I just point out that the "it" in Tati's post didn't seem to me to be referring to a person at all?

I wasn't! It's not like i replaced she/he with It. I just used "it" in the phrase because it sounded right like that.

You do know it's a matter of time before this thread turns to shit, right? Tati unwillingly used the word "it", and it's the classic moment where most transsexual discussions devolve into madness.

It.

And I really like the subject and the thread, but it's still one of the toughest subject to discuss, as it's still shrouded by ignorance.

And DaveB and HBarr pointed great points. Look, a close cousin of mine works as social workers in the gay quarter here. And due to this ignorance, I've heard horrible stories of guys or girl being beaten up when they told or their partner figured it out. A dozen a year (that she know of). Here. Montreal, a small city of 2 millions. Can't imagine how it goes in the States.

That's the way I took it. It didn't seem like you were referring to a person at all.

Y'know, I'll buy that a lot (a majority, perhaps) of straight people may be uncomfortable having sex with a transgendered person, but it's beyond disingenuous to say that withholding the information that one is transgender is harmful because transgendered people are carriers of "drama".

Really, what we're talking about here is the "ick" factor. If there's a good reason for a transgendered person to disclose his or transgendered-ness, it's the other person's potential hangups about it, not because transgendered people are psychological messes. Someone who had gender reassignment surgery ten years ago is not necessarily going through drama now.

Not only that Dave, but transgendered people go through tons of therapy (pre, during and post surgery). I'd wager they are probably in a better mental state than the majority of Americans.

Questions like this make me glad to be a bisexual.

Why does anything bother people? That's not the point. I am fairly certain that bacon will not make one "unclean" but does that give me the right to ignore the fact that many people would like to know whether the food they are eating contains pork? My whole point is courtesy. Nobody has to do anything but if you know it would really mean a lot to a lot of people (no matter how much you disagree) why be a douche and ignore it?

And since you're curious, one of the social norms that many would expect from a one night stand is that the female they are with has never had a dick. Call me crazy but that has been a pretty consistent thing with the girls I've known... or has it? Hmmm...

The last thing I'll say about it is this:

It wouldn't ruin my life. I'd be offended and feel duped but I'd get over it pretty quickly. That's me though. I acknowledge there are some people that would kill themselves if this happened to them. Some religious folks would feel doomed, or dirty or who knows what else. It really could affect some people pretty harshly. Whatever you think of their opinions or values, you should respect them as you would anyone else and be up front about such things. It's just a decent courteous thing to do.

The transgendered people I know seem to wear their trans status on their sleeves, like it's their defining characteristic- sometimes voluntarily, sometimes via their "PLEASE KNOW I'M OPEN-MINDED" friends who treat the individual like some sort of Special Olympics retard/cancer survivor/magical Negro. Constant affirmation of how "special" they are. Based on that anecdotal shit, I don't think I'd tell anyone.

Shall I list the times that the majority rule has been found to be eventually wrong, immoral, bigoted and intolerant?

We need to take into account whether the effect it had on someone is reasonable- why should we defend irrationality? To me, the idea someone would be 'doomed' by this is pretty sill, so that's not a complaint that stands up. As Dave said, if the argument boils down to the 'ick factor', people need to grow up and realise that they are in the wrong. If it felt right in the moment, it felt right, and as it wasn't hurting anyone, what's the problem?

Wait...what's the argument here? Maybe I missed something in the skimming but if your one night stand (who doesn't owe you a goddamn thing) is pre-op, then, well, you're gonna know that up front. If they're post-op, then it's none of your goddamned business what they used to be. If their manufactured vagina was convincing enough that you went ahead and slept with them, then why does anything else matter?

If you found out after the fact then your cries of "BETRAYAL AND DECEIT!" are moot and self-righteous because, again, it was a one night stand and she doesn't owe you a fucking thing. If you don't want to take a chance on putting your precious penis in an after-market vagina, then hey - maybe you should get to know someone before you sleep with them.

Bingo!

Let's back up a sec and point out that Johnny was just sort of asking, not freaking out or saying "eww gross am I a fag now", etc. Conflicted feelings in such a situation aren't grounds for shunning or judging. "We are not responsible for our feelings, only our actions," said some dude who is not me.

Pretty sure that is understood. The discussion has moved to various people's individual responses.

Leave it to a Texan to give y'all a lesson in Plainspeak 101.

Well done, Butler.

That's fine and fair and I dig it, I was mainly reacting to the (perceived) notion that there needs to be some sort of "HEY I USED TO HAVE A DICK" disclaimer.

ETA - in response to Phil.

Yeah, seemed like he was just curious how his fellow Chewers feel about the topic. There was no particular stance being taken or argument being made one way or the other, just a question posed to start a discussion.

EDIT: I post way too slowly

"It takes two to tango."

There's more to that phrase than you might think.

Be aware of what you're doing... with whom you're doing it... and what your motivations are for doing it.

Failing to practice basic awareness in the realm of sexual partners WILL result in the issue being discussed. Otherwise, it just plain won't happen... cause you'll already know and you'll have given yourself the opportunity to respond appropriately.

In other words, both parties are responsible for being as aware or as ignorant as they choose with relation to anything about the other party that might affect each of their decisions, reactions and perceptions.

ETA - I suppose... on topic and to actually respond directly to the OP -- Me? It almost certainly wouldn't happen. I'd already know. IF, however, it somehow did occur... I'd have absolutely no issue. My only reaction would be to try to help the partner-in-question to come to terms with WHY they felt they couldn't tell me initially.

Also, I'm not trying to attack anyone else in this thread with this next statement... but... If someone personally identifies as the opposite of their birth-gender, that is WHO THEY ARE and WHO THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN to them. Calling upon "decency" or "courtesy" to explain a desire for this individual to admit to something that they don't personally believe shows, at best, an ignorance of the physiological facts surrounding their situation.

And sigged.

I was just about to post this very thing. The person had a sexual reassignment surgery because they believe they were born with the wrong body parts. Psychologically, they always were and will always be a woman. It makes no sense that they would ever say "I used to be a man." Again, if they were contemplating a long term relationship with someone, they might reveal that they used to have a penis and had it removed. But more often than not, they won't. A lot of transsexuals start a new life after their surgery and don't reference their life before then. And given that's there are no health risks involved, there's no obligation to.

Dammit, Jake.

That just gave me an involuntary sinus wash.

After Market Vagina will be the name of my new punk band.

I'd learn how to play an instrument (poorly) to be in this band.

I'm not sure, since it's never happened, but I would hope I say something like "Wow, really? Let's do it again."

Oops, I used "it". Dammit.

If I were in a long-term relationship with a woman who told me, well into the relationship, that she used to be a man, I'd be hurt. Not because the other person was holding back information and hiding something from me, but because they didn't trust me with that information.

I've been in a situation before where after I was already in love with someone, and had been with her for a long time, and suddenly large aspects of her past came to light. I was hurt because I thought I knew this person, and I made damn sure she knew who I was, and suddenly aspects of her life -- which, whether either of us liked it or not, helped shape her into the person she was -- were coming out of the woodwork. And learning those things changed my perception of all we'd been through up to that point. Not because I felt I had been deliberately deceived, but because she withheld intimate information that I was then forced to integrate with what I thought I knew.

It doesn't change the person you're in love with, but knowing such intimate details about them is a big part of being in a serious, committed relationship. Being committed means letting yourself be vulnerable and revealing those types of things.

Things like what I learned about my ex-girlfriend, and learning that someone you're involved with is a transsexual aren't deal-breakers if you're a secure, understanding person. But how these things are presented make all the difference.

But if it were a one night stand, or a short-lived fling or something, I think the other person would be more uncomfortable than I would be -- because I'd be asking a shit-ton of questions out of honest, genuine curiosity.

"How does it work? When did you first make the decision to go under the knife? Can you orgasm? You didn't fake it, right? (Kidding.) Can I take a closer look at it?"

Ultimately, people are people. The person I hypothetically had sex with in this scenario is a woman, inside and out, as far as I'm concerned.

It would be a complete non issue for me. Just as it would be if she told me she had any other type of plastic surgery. Lips, nose, breasts, vagina who cares. Dude wasn't happy with a penis, got himself a vagina, now she's happy. Good for her. And if she looks anything like that British chick someone linked to extra double good for me. People are too hung up on superficial stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, a person who's been through the complete gender reassignment routine is now the new gender. For all intents and purposes, I had sex with a woman. What she used to be doesn't enter into it.

She used to be a child, too. That doesn't make me a pedophile.

That's a good way of putting it. The child thing I mean. I'm going to remember that - not that this topic of conversation comes up all that often

It's been said before in this thread but the golden rule of a one night stand is "Don't ask, don't tell".

And everything Patrick says at the moment is made 100% cooler because it looks like Nigel Tuffnell is saying it.

I remember a question asked about transsexuals and sport competition. How do you qualify that? Beside the whole identity question, men and women perform differently, and to some levels the question has been raised.

Was that the Caster Semenya thing? If so, she was a hermaphrodite. If not, nevermind!

And now I'm curious as to what effect hormone therapy would have on an MTF transsexual's athletic performance. Interesting question!

The question came back with the South African runner, but it was raised before.

It isn't disingenuous when I purposefully made the point to speak is as much of a generality as possible. Transgendered people, whether you want to admit it or not, have had a torturous route to get to the points they end up at. Once your counseling, hormones and surgery are done and finalized you are not magically on a better path. You may be a little but you still have deep seated issues that make up who you are at the core.

I recently moved out of the house I was in when my ex left. I am in a much nicer home in a much nicer part of town and while I am much happier for it I am still me at my core and a new facade hasn't changed the inner "turmoil" with which I have to deal. It is the same as people who pack up and move to a different town to start life anew and "reinvent" themselves. You are still the same person inside. Can it lessen it? Can it make it easier to deal with? Sure, if you deal. If you bury it and hide it and try to be something else then no.

Now, a transgendered person may now have their former inside on the outside but they are by no means through the woods with regards to who they are mentally. And yes, HBarr, I understand they have plenty of therapy. That doesn't change the fact that for the rest of your life you are chemically forcing your body to be opposite of what nature intended. If you think hormone therapy is a walk in the park then you have another think coming.

And choosing not to reveal that information, as I said in the post you quoted, is a possible manifestation of the transgendered persons' reaction to societal feelings towards the situation and is, in and of itself, a potential "dramatic" issue with respect to still not being comfortable in their own/new skin.



I take issue with these two statements on a specific case basis. I agree with them that they may be true for the majority but there is always the exception that proves the rule, so to speak.

I happen to know someone undergoing therapy now with an eye towards gender reassignment. This lady has always identified as gay and yet in thirty some odd years never once, in a relatively accepting family, espoused thoughts about being a man trapped in a womans body. Never that is until her social scene began to include transexual people.

This sudden turn of events has created quite the disharmony in her family because of the way the person has chosen to handle it with respect to telling the family. It is in essence, getting back to my original discussion with Dave, drama. The family, very much tolerant of her homosexuality, has been rent quite a bit by the ways in which their daughter/sister has been handling the "reveal." That cannot be laid fully at the feet of the family and their hangups.

There was a fascinating program that I watched a while ago regarding transgender males and females and the current attitudes toward them.

It followed a few individuals but focused on one guy (who was born female). Amazingly his sister was born male and they both underwent gender reassignment.

They talked about what it was like growing up swapping toys and the like.

They talked about reactions they have received when revealing their story. Some sad, some funny.

That's not their drama but their families. And as close as some families are, there are ALWAYS secrets. You can't know the mind of even your closest sibling.

Was she a 4th grade teacher from a small town in Colorado?

At the same time, we can't think for her or read her thoughts. For all we know, it took her spending time around transgendered folks to help her come to this realization. There are all kinds of situations that function as triggers - a near-death experience that makes an alcoholic actively want to stop drinking, a sexual experience with someone of the same gender that makes someone realize that they're gay/lesbian, etc. The workings of the human brain just aren't that cut-and-dried, despite the fact that a lot of us like to be able to just put things in little labeled boxes and let that be that.

And sexuality's the most confusing shit of all.

No. You don't know the fucked up ways in which the reveal has been brought to light. She is actively fomenting drama and her tolerant family is reacting almost as equally to the news as to the way in which the news is being telegraphed.

Were you a witness to this? If not, then you can't really know. You're going off hearsay. I find it VERY hard to believe that someone would go out of the way to traumatize their support system. Especially when going through something like gender reassignment.