SUPERMAN STORIES ARE FLYING FASTER THAN A SPEEDING BULLET - Page 2

Best Batman theme is the TAS one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEx9r...ext=1&index=37

Hahahaha. Wow, this movie sounds like a massive trainwreck. Zack Snyder directing a David Goyer script of either Smallville or a remake of Superman II to Superman Returns's remake of Superman. They've made literally every wrong choice as far as I can tell, and if Nolan's going to be "hands-off" I don't see how there's any hope at all.

Even if these rumours are completely wrong: it's Zack Snyder directing a David Goyer script. How can it not suck?

The weird Zack Snyder disdain never fails to boggle my mind.

They gave the first Connery-less Bond film a new theme (though they recycled the original for the end - hey, just like Casino Royale). Then Connery came back. Chris Reeve comin' back?

By your logic, the Donner Superman should have had the Fleischer Brothers cartoon theme, and Burton's Batman should have had the Adam West Batman theme.

Then we're even, because the number of people (around here at least) that think Snyder is anything more than mediocre boggles my mind too.

Do we need another movie that tells us about Superman's origin? I mean, we even have a TV show that runs on WB for 10 seasons specifically dealing with Kal El's life in Smallville. Besides, everybody knows Superman's origin by heart already.

It's barely in some of the Brosnan movies and the Craig movies.

I also think there's a difference because for 95 % of people, Bond IS the movies. The books aren't really read by the mass populace. In this way, the style of the Connery Bonds with their gunbarrels, theme music, and gadgets became the dominant idea of WHAT JAMES BOND IS.

This never happened with Superman. In terms of contemporary general audiences (which is who this film is aimed at), people would be just as likely to know Superman from a bumper sticker, cartoon, or comic book as they would the movies. There's literally no "SUPERMAN MOVIE TRADITION!" that this movie needs to follow or people will be up in arms. Thinking that there was is one of the major problems of Superman Returns. You simply just don't end a Superhero tent pole with the main character breaking the fourth wall and smiling at the audience anymore.

Why don't they do the same opening credits again!

I love the Donner movies too, but let this be its own thing in every way. Superman is much bigger then his film traditiion or score. I'm not sure if Bond really is.

Also, if this is an origin story I will throw up. The recession - and the Daily Planet hitting rough times like every other newspaper - would be the most interesting backdrop to give a modern Superman movie I think.

@AngerManagement: Umm...pretty sure I never asked for another origin movie there.

I was just talking about characterization. You don't need a whole movie set in Smallville to show that. It can be a scene. It can be a phone call. It can be briefly interacting with someone like Lana Lang or Pete Ross. Just a small human moment to show Clark as he is beneath his facades.

The only reason I brought up Birthright is because someone mentioned it earlier, and I was bummed that it was replaced as quickly as it was.

Just cause it's called Smallville is kind of a misnomer, sice he's been in Metropolis being Superman in everything except the name for about five seasons already.

I hate that I know that.

Also, calling this a trainwreck based on speculative information about what the movie might be about is all sorts of agenda having.

Darkside would be a great villain to use.

I wasn't referring to your post, Youngblood - more that the movie seems to be about "Clark traveling the world, deciding whether he should become Superman or not". That sounds like an origin story.

Maybe it'll be about Clark traveling the world, deciding whether there should be a Superman ANYMORE? I guess that's an interesting angle, but Superman Returns already covered the whole 'DOES THE WORLD NEED A SUPERMAN' theme and it wasn't very interesting then.

Darkseid is the Superman villain.

Darkside is an underworld, unseen by most; a place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit.

I think the theme should be 'Superman's Song' by the Crash Test Dummies.

Actually, I was referring to AngerManagement, and forgot to hit "quote". No worries.

Returns also covered the "Does the world need Superman" thing in the most superficial way possible.


I love that in the Lex, in his heart, absolutely believes that the world should be a Superman, except he thinks it should be him.

I think he thinks that it IS him. This Superman's a phoney, and Lex will prove it one of these days.

Lex Luthor: Man Of Steel is the comic to go to for Snyder and Nolan for Lex's characterization. For all the talk of how Lex is overused - no film has gotten the characterization of Luthor anywhere close to right.

I'm all about their being a villain in this for Superman to actually fight - be that Zod or Darkseid or Brainiac or Robots - but Lex SHOULD be a part of the story, even if it isn't that of the main antagonist. I'm sure he will, I think it'd be a big mistake to do a Superman movie without him, haters be damned.

Hopefully through a genius real estate scam of epic proportions.

Yeah. He resents Superman because Lex has had to work for what he's got, while Superman was born to it (well, to the physical aspect of it, he's has a lot of hard work to, but in ways Lex can't understand) and because he's "not even from 'round here!".

In a way the conflict between Superman and Lex is inherently the kind of conflict between "native" americans and immigrants, who resent immigrants for coming to their country, even though they might hold its founding ideals closer to their hearts than the "natives" do.

That's what's made Lex interesting to me, not crazy wigs and land grabs.

ETA: The more I think of it, the more Superman represents the sort of Progressive American Ideal, about the outsider becoming one of us and maybe even making us better for it, and Batman stands as a kind of hyper-conservative fantasy where government is ineffective and corrupt, the rich will save us, and sometimes you just have to go out and beat on people regardless of how legal it is.

But that Gene Hackman was just so gosh darn funny!

I'm a huge fan of the Donner Superman movie. I'm a huge fan of Gene Hackman. But when people say that Lex has been overdone on screen and then point to him and Kevin Spacey - I don't really think that Lex Luthor has really ever even been in any of these movies yet.

And I'm all about the Lex Battlesuit being in this movie. I know someone said that they didn't like it because they preferred the intellectual side of Lex's character - and I see their point. But I think that, for Lex, creating something that would put him on the same physical playing field as Superman would be a source of pride for him. It helps him to feel like he can do anything that Superman can.

Also, Zack Snyder is directing this movie. Which means that this will hopefully be the balls to the wall, POPCORN ACTION MOVIE version of Superman. Because that's where Snyder's talents lie. And Kryptonian battle suits would look great in 3D.

We all get the obvious metaphor of an Alien representing an immigrant, no shit right? Its so obvious that its just uninteresting. And this argument between whether Clark Kent or Superman is the Kryptonians true identity has always been kinda dumb. We know Supermans going to be a good guy, they're not going to make him angry or impulsive. All they need to do is give us a badass storyline with awesome actors and effects. The thing'll make trillions and every geek will be happy for a day.

I thought JJ Abrams script was actually pretty cool, naratively speaking it was exciting and over the top. Of course, all the changes to canon made nerds go nuts, but in its defense, it was an early draft.

Put Luthor in a battlesuit and he's Obadiah Stane or Whiplash and so on. Yeah, it takes intellect to build something like that, and yeah, it's been a part of the comics since forever, but I don't think it represents the best of what the Luthor character has to offer. He shouldn't bring himself "down to Superman's level", he employs guys like the Parasite and Metallo for that shit, Luthor should be all about playing the game at an angle that Superman shouldn't be able punch his way around (though he always does).

Isn't the battlesuit a Kryptonian battlesuit? Which means that it does the opposite of playing to Luthor's intellect. He didn't build the thing, right? Any schmuck with a hard-on for purple and green could wear it.

I suppose he had to figure out how it worked, but still.

I think that not being able to best Superman physically would bother Luthor. He strikes me as the type of dude who would want to do everything himself if he could. And he uses his intellect to make that possible. It would be absolutely great to bust out in the third act.

It's not actually from Kryton. It's just filled with Kryptonite. Lex made that himself.

Yikes. Not like what I'm hearing about this anymore. After INCEPTION I'm willing to give Nolan something of a pass but at this point there is more going against this than for it. Zod? Goyer?? Can someone give us a good reason why every creative angle for this relies heavily on the Donner films? I mean, they're good but nothing special.

Quick remarks about the score:
I think the William's theme is pretty tied to the icon that is Superman, but it needs to be adjusted. Maybe Nolan will throw Zimmer into composing it. I think a few notes should remain. Besides if they are rushing this thing, an already set of music will only speed it up. Danny Elfman's score to Batman is great, but it never got a chance to be attached to the character because it got changed so fast. As of right now, the Batman theme is the Molossus track.

Back to the film:
Until I hear more from the horses mouth, I won't say. Zod isn't even set in stone (even if I fanwanked in another post), but I'd love Darkseid to be built up over a film. This film has to get people believing in Superman again, and it needs to end on a very very high note to get people excited to see the next one.

Imagine a twisted time jumping tale where we initially think the story is just jumping back and forth, only to realize Superman was shot by Darkseid and sent to the past?! Ending shot would be him realigning to the present with Darkseid in front of him. Cue credits.

Clark touring the world to "find himself" sounds like an idea that fosters lots of Clark Kent and plain clothes Super-feats. Smallville: The World Tour, basically.

Crazy idea, but I'd rather see Superman in costume touring the world to discover why he needs to be Clark Kent.

I always thought it'd be cool to have the Fleisher theme backing the Warner Bros logo and Williams' theme reserved for Superman winking at the camera pre-Crisis style at the end of the flick and soaring off into the end credits. But everywhere else in the film, there'd be a new score with new hero theme.

But that's just me.

^ Agree on Lex Luthor; Man of Steel graphic novel being a good template for Movie Luthor.

But man, the two plotlines outlined in this article really leave me cold. We may get "Superman Begins" or "Superman II Part II" or a combination of both.

Can we , dare I say it, get a Superman movie that dispenses with the origin story (Incredible Hulk did it quite well) has an actual plot not involving real estate, in which Superman is the protagonist, but is not necessarily the whole focus of the movie? Don't need another iteration of "oh, but what does it mean to be Superman?!"

Also: Robuts!

As for the theme: I love John William's theme, just like a loved Danny Elfman's Batman theme (and no I'm not comparing the two). But Batman Begins also has a good Batman theme, and I've no doubt a new Superman movie can also include a new, yet still good, theme.

Oh and Zack Snyder would be perfect for a Superman film, much moreso than 300 and Watchmen, and IMO he did a pretty damn good job with both of those.

F the Haters!

Your rational, well-constructed argument has defeated me. Bravo, sir.

So the rumors have been confirmed then? No? Didn't think so. Only thing we know to a certainty is that Zack Snyder has been hired to direct the film and that Goyer is scripting (how much Nolan will contribute to said script has not been established). That's it, we've got nothing else.

If Superman Returns was still being acknowledged, they could adapt the recent comic story "Last Son" and have the kid turn out to be Zod's son. That was a great storyline because it not only featured dozen of Kryptonian criminals, but a Superman Revenge Squad led by Luthor that included Parasite, Metallo, and Bizarro. I want that movie!

Of course that would mean that Lois Lane would had to have fucked Zod.

No, I mean it would be some sort of fake-out, like her memories of giving birth were implants or something.

Either way wouldn't it be hilarious to still adapt "Last Son" with Lois and Clark adopting a 5 year old kid? It would confuse the hell out of people. "Is that the same kid from the other movie?" Kind of like Incredible Hulk starting in South America, it almost fits...

I said it in the other thread but since you're all going on about music it bears repeating:

It'd be nice if they instituted a firm "no pop-music cues" rule on Snyder for this thing. That guy can't pick music for shit. I don't want to hear every song that references flying or Superman crammed into the trailer or the film.

Score and score only, please. I don't care if they go with a new theme or not either, just make sure Tyler "Generic Metal Riffs" Bates doesn't have a hand in it.

Phew. Ok, on with the hope, right! Please make this the first Snyder film I enjoy on more than a superficial level.

There's a lot of people here who aren't aware of the obvious:

Snyder has a loyal crew that he, in turn, is also incredibly loyal to. There's like a 90% chance that it'll be Larry Fong shooting the movie, William Hoy editing, Michael Wilkinson costume designing, Alex McDowell doing production design, Animal Logic doing primary FX work, and Tyler Bates scoring it.

Also, whatever the story is (I kind of don't believe that the Goyer script that is being accepted as true right now is actually it; after all, there's no source for the Zod shit or anything, so it feels more like sites just throwing wacky ideas out there and imagining one or two might stick), it likely goes right up Snyder's alley - in which the main characters have lost and are trying to locate their sense of self in a highly hostile environment that is tearing them down physically and emotionally. Most of Snyder's movies have the protagonists finding that sense in their jobs - they fulfill themselves by doing what they are trained to do (Dawn, 300, Watchmen) or what they dream of doing (Watchmen, Ga'Hoole, Sucker Punch), with the most unfulfilled characters being the one who fell into this. Right there is a conflict that might be what Snyder's Superman will be about - at first, Kal-El is a man forced into being the savior of a planet who doesn't entirely trust him, but by the end finds that he, innately, is what is good and right, a shining beacon to guide humanity to a better place.

Admittedly, this will also probably be only the second movie in which Snyder's interest in fetishism - both visual and sexual - doesn't really turn up anywhere, the other being the obvious one, Ga'Hoole - although, if the villain IS Zod, then he might be able to tape into at least the visual fetishism while hinting at a sexual subtext. I also presume this won't have rape or an attempt at rape anywhere in the movie (I just want to note that he's only made two movies now without rape as a plot point somewhere in there - rape is to Snyder as dead lovers is to Nolan, apparently the worst thing he can think of and always a source of conflict both internal and external with the main characters).

Oh God, there are so many shitty pop songs about Superman, and I can absolutely picture Snyder trying to cram them all in. That's precisely the kind of thing he would do.

Extremely well put. I didn't know it was possible to analyse Snyder's work in this much detail, bravo! You've also given hope that Warners aren't just looking for a director who gives them most bang for their buck but an artist whose vision and preferences suit the character best. You just made me a Snyder-believer.
And wasn't there a family-friendly, hilarious rape-attempt in the 90's Robin Hood-film? Everything's possible.

ETA: I realized that not everybody on the internet is such a nerd to know what the hell I'm referencing. So, here is what I'm babbling about.

Nerdery incoming:

I think that a somewhat expanded and tweaked adaptation of "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?" would:

A. Miss the trap of an origin story 90% of Americans who might go see this movie already know. I think that at this point, a Superman who's as much of a cultural icon in his world as he is in ours is the way to go.

B. Directly address a common cultural perception that Superman is out of touch, boring, etc., especially as compared to more grim-and-gritty superheroes.

C. Present an inner conflict for Superman, as he considers whether or not he'll have to deal with The Elite in the same murderous fashion he condemns.

D. Provide a villain who isn't as overdone as Luthor, without necessarily excluding Luthor from the movie (Corporate sponsor of the Elite?), not as one-note as Doomsday, and not as obscure as Metallo.

E. Provide more action than Superman being prison-shanked and subsequently throwing a rock without devolving into two hours of HULK SMASH.

There are definitely problems with adapting that story for film, however. The original comic is, as I recall, just one double issue. Some expansion and basic introduction to Superman and his world would be necessary so that the audience gives a hoot when his less-heroic counterparts show up. I think that, since a movie made in 2010 would have less of a bone to pick with The Authority than a DC comic made in 2001 would, you can easily scrap the individual members of the Elite as long as you keep the gist. Hell, if Zod is what they decide, scrap the whole group idea and have Zod be a Luthor-approved, violent, conniving anti-Superman.

Really? Cause I thought the prologues to DAWN OF THE DEAD and WATCHMEN were spectacular.

Ugh no "The Times They Are a-Changin'" should NOT be used for a montage of times a-changin'.

Yeah, c'mon, Snyder really does suck at music cues.

Having just seen THE SOCIAL NETWORK, I'd like to add my support to former almost Batman Armie Hammer for the role.

I just think he's painfully on the nose.

Oh, kiss my ass. It made me laugh.

I'll split it 50/50. I thought Dawn's "When the Man Comes Around" was perfection, but Watchmen's use of "The Times They Are A-Changin'" painfully obvious.

Maybe we'll get "Sunshine Superman" or "I Am Superman" or that awful Spin Doctors song about kryptonite for this.

Screw it, use Remy Zero's Save Me. If it's good enough for Smallville, it's good enough for this.

Or Five For Fighting!

I can't stand to fly,
I'm not that naive.
I'm just out to find
the better part of me...

I'm more than a bird,
More than a plane,
More than some pretty face besides a train

And it's not easy to be me...

That song turns me into a soppy wet mess. I'm such a girl.