the Se7en murders - from bad to worst

Getting your head cut off is much worse than getting your nose cut off (since she wasn't murdered, she chose to die). I'd reverse those two, as well as Gluttony and Greed (especially since the greed guy would have been armed with a knife, I'd have tried to save myself with it)

Otherwise OK list

Eh, I'll bite.

Switch gluttony and greed. You know how much food you would have to ingest to get to a point where you would literally have to force food into your esophagus? And so that the stomach bursts just from being kicked? That's an incredibly fucked up, torturous way to die.

On top of that, John Doe went for some No Frills bullshit canned spaghetti. He's got money for killdos, but not Chef Boyardee? Spacey's a dick.

Lust must have hurt like a bitch but I bet it was pretty quick. It's been a long while since I watched it but I remember the strap-on being quite large. The realization of what was about to happen would be by far the worst part of it. Overall I agree with Justin.

Bored at work, too.

I think Sloth was the worst. Don't forget that the guy was kept bound for a year. Imagine the psychological torture. And in the end, he's not killed, but presumably dies in the hospital.

I thought John died for Envy?

Nope. Gwenyth was envied by John. Brad's wrath over her murder killed John.

Right, but in each case it's the person who embodies the sin who dies, so saying Paltrow dies for Envy is kind of misleading. She didn't commit any sin to be killed over; John Doe did. He may have been killed by Mills' wrath, but in his mind, he was dying for his envy.

If you take the theory that the person who embodies the sin is the one who dies, then the resolution to the film fails -- because Paltrow didn't embody wrath. I always took it as the murder took the theme of the sin.

Lust. Why? The woman that had to endure it and the guy who has to fucking live with it.

Brad is the only person who doesn't get killed for his sin: Wrath. His punishment isn't death, it's the burden of living with what he's experienced. Gwyneth's death is incidental as a setup to Envy AND Wrath.

eta: I'm a slow typist.

Okay. That's a good reading, Judas.

Judas put it better than I did.

This thread is a fine place and worth fighting for.

Just like the person punished for lust was the client, not the hooker. She was just an instrument. Doe's victims didn't actually have to die, only get punished for their sins.

This, absolutely. It beats the whole fucking SAW concept at its own game and does it a decade earlier.

It could be argued that, unlike the other sins, TWO people were punished for LUST. His was the lust of the flesh, hers was the lust of money and the willingness to sell her flesh for it*

*this of course ignores the question of whether or not she was a prostitute by choice.

Lust wins for me, simply because out of all the grisly deaths, that one's so grisly that they don't even show you the actual body, just the photograph of the killdo. Your brain fills in the blanks, and then your subconscious starts screaming. And screaming.

So now I'm confused, Poxy. Is Paltrow the "Envy" death and John the "Wrath"? If so, then John is certainly punished for his Envy and Pitt is certainly punished for his Wrath. Or is John the Envy death and there is no Wrath (yet)? Or does it matter? I should stop this and get back to work.

Tracy dies so John Doe can become Envy. John Doe dies so Mills can become Wrath. The two sins feed into one another.

Did anyone else feel like an idiot when John Doe kept saying "You know, I ENVY you. You're life. I ENVY it." in the car and did not put together where he was going with it?

I wanna know what the dog's sin was.

"I didn't do that..."

Paltrow dies so that John can possess her, and thus become Envy. But it also sets up Mills to become Wrath, and thereby kill John for his Envy.

Mills doesn't die due to his wrath, but you could argue his life is over, so in effect, he's "dead".

Overdosing on prescription medication is anything but peaceful. Odds are that woman choked to death on her own vomit.

Rock star way to go!

If she didn't vomit, I don't think it would be too bad, IMHO (assuming she took opiates)

No, it would suck pretty bad.

A few years back, I once tried the whole vicoden thing and took quite a few on a couple of occasions. You just kind of pass out once you take too many. I assume a fatal overdose would be like that only you don't wake up. Shitty, but not physically unpleasent

EDIT: it was her choice though, she could have taken one for pain and called for help

I agree with those who said that the Lust murder was the worst.

None of those deaths are fun, but worse than Sloth?! No way!

Speaking of the punishments, it seems "wrath" got off far easier than the others. First, Mills doesn't die, and second he probably got off for temporary insanity or a lighter sentence of second degree manslaughter or something similar. That's some poor planning, Mr. Doe.

Sure, externally, he may get off light. But internally, he's going through hell.

Ahaw... he'll be back on the streets in 24 hours!

But we'll try to make it twelve.

I think I now look at Doe's master plan as less him murdering people, and more him acting out grotesque sermons, as is suggested by Somerset. If you think about them in this light they make more sense, because in some cases it isn't even Doe doing the killing.

Lust - Both the hooker and her client represent Lust. The hooker was killed by the client although Doe forces him to do it.
Pride - The girl kill chooses death over disfigurement
Sloth - Doe ties the victim to a bed for a year. The man is still alive when he is found. I don't think he's actually guilty of Sloth, rather I think it is the act of slowly being killed that is slothful. I mean, how else could you represent Sloth?
Greed - Forced to cut off a pound of his own flesh, dies
Gluttony - Probably the one victim who most represents what he's being accused of by Doe
Envy- Doe says he is envious of Mill's life. That's as far as it goes
Wrath - Mills kills Doe

I love this movie, but I think it could have made things a bit clearer. It implies Doe is basing his murders on the seven deadly sins, but if you look at it strictly from that perspective, things make less sense. Doe says he wants to turn "each sin against the sinner". But how is the Sloth victim slothful? How is Tracy envious? And there was no guarantee that Mills would commit Wrath. So I think it's better to look at it from the perspective that Somerset suggests, in that Doe is preaching, and these are his sermons acted out.

what cut of the movie did you see? he never said anything like that in the car...not that i remember. and i saw the film fairly recently (blu-ray release).

Yeah, I know that.

If I remember correctly, the sloth victim was a drug addict and thus the reason why he was picked. e.g., he was slowly killing himself, anyway.

I don't believe this happens. The giveaway is Mills repeatedly talking about his wife after Doe is in custody but the audience never seeing or hearing from her. Its a total give but I didn't catch it at all.

I agree with the second part.

Finally!

The screenwriter based it on his time spent in New York who while they hadn't used the death penalty since the 60s, still had it until it was deemed unconstitunional in 2004. It was shot in California and Pennsylvania, but what with the rain and grime, i think its safe to assume the unidentified city is New York in 1995. The only capital crime at that time was first degree murder.

In this case there was no premeditation- he was provoked and lost it, which is called 'heat of passion'. A judge/jury could likely be convinced that any other reasonable man would do the same in those circumstances. Mills would get charged with or plead guilty to at least 2nd degree murder, but could prove it was a 'heat of passion' crime. Also with him being a cop and brotherly solidarity, and the fact that the victim was a gruesome murderer, everyone involved would probably take it easy on him.

So while Mills is definitely punished for wrath (legal troubles, life prisonment, loss of fiance/family) he probably wouldn't die for it. Unless he kills himself or gets shanked, neither of which Doe could bet on. He already lucked out on getting headshot.

I agree that Tracey's death wasn't punishment for any sin. And frankly I don't buy that Doe envied her or Mills. Judging from his apartment, lifestyle and dedication to ideals, I think Doe is exactly who he wants to be- he doesn't need money, family, fingerprints or a cozy home. He may idly long for them, but at no point do we see any evidence of him ever making an effort to achieve them. He's too far gone in this to even welcome happiness or a way out. He just hates life and wants to make his death mean something. He longs for an audience more than anything.

Regarding sloth, I always felt this was the weakest sin. I think they wanted to comment on drug abuse, and this was the only sin that sort of fit. The victim was a drug dealer who ruined lives for a quick easy buck (as opposed to working hard at a job or career). Many dealers operate without having to ever leave their house or pause their videogame, so there you have your sloth. Punishing the dealer by forcing use comments on drug abusers who (initially) voluntarity kill themselves slowly. Directlly related to gluttony (both could have been quick kills but were draaaaawn out to make a point).

Finally, I love that lust involves two people- it takes two to tango. All the sins are fundamentally selfish in nature, but lust explicitly needs two. Regardless of the circumstances leading the women to become a prostitute, she is punished horribly but quickly for participating and profiting on her own objectification. But her profession is nothing without demand (as old nasty pros can attest to) so repeat Johns are where the problem really starts. By making him the weilder of the killdo indelibly links that device with his own manhood. Hammering home (sorry) the idea that he is the instigator and must live with the guilt. Incidentally, the John is a prime candidate to become a real monster if his thinking about the ordeal becomes sinister.

I am consistently baffled by people not getting this: Tracy (and her unborn child) is the kill for Wrath. She dies as punishment for Mills being wrathful. Doe is the Envy kill.

I've heard people say that Mills is going to be the Wrath kill because he'd get the death sentence for murdering Doe, but no judge on earth is going to sentence a cop to death for killing an admitted serial killer who murdered said cop's pregnant wife.

Doe: "Because I envy your normal life, it would seem that Envy is my sin". "Become vengeance, David. Become....Wrath"

I don't know how much clearer this can be. Doe killed Tracy because he feels envious (which is kind of bullshit) towards David. David kills Doe because he feels wrathful against Doe. What you're implying doesn't make any sense. Don't you think it makes more sense that Doe killed Tracy out of envy, and Mills killed Doe out of wrath, than your scenario, where Doe kills Tracy as punishment for the wrath David hadn't committed yet?

Which is all besides the point I was trying to make. Tracy is completely innocent in the grand scheme of things. Doe says "I won't deny my own personal desire to turn each sin against the sinner". The movie specifically implies that he kills his victims based on the sins they have committed. That's how the movie is marketed. Okay, so the first victim that's found is clearly a glutton. And the Pride victim is certainly prideful. And lust was definitely involved between the prostitute and her client. And you could make a case that the lawyer was greedy. Sloth is kind of sketchy, but the Greed victim was his lawyer, so they tie together. Then you get to Tracy, and it's here that Doe is supposed to drop his modus operandi and make it so that she, who hasn't sinned at all, is his murder victim. And it doesn't matter if you think she died to punish Mills for his wrath, or Doe's envy. She wasn't committing a sin herself. It's because of this, and because Sloth was found alive, and because Doe didn't directly kill the Lust victim, and because Pride killed herself, that I wish the movie had straighted it's objectives out.

His whole endgame is based on manipulating Mills into killing him, that's what Somerset realizes when he opens the box, and that's why 'Doe has the upper hand now.' Mills killing him proves that he's an absolute diabolical fucking genius. He's willing to kill one person who is (in his mind) innocent if it means completing his masterpiece (it's been literally years since I've seen it, but I seem to remember Doe talking about what a good person Tracy was in his monologue about the chat he had with her before he killed her).

How is Doe dying in any way punishing Mills for his Wrath? It doesn't hurt Mills in any way (at worst he's looking at a 6 month suspension, with pay, considering the circumstances). How is Tracy dying punishing Doe for his Envy? The ONLY way it makes sense, and the only way the sin is turned against the sinner, is if Tracy dying is punishing Mills's Wrath, and Doe dying is punishing Doe's Envy.