CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › "The Shaming of America"
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"The Shaming of America"

post #1 of 311
10/24/10 at 1:13pm
Thread Starter 
Robert Fisk discusses the implications of the WikiLeaks expose in his inimitable fashion.
Reply
post #2 of 311
10/24/10 at 1:28pm
If it weren't for us, Robert Fisk would be more like Herr Fisk, amirite?
Reply
post #3 of 311
10/24/10 at 1:35pm
Thread Starter 
No.
Reply
post #4 of 311
10/24/10 at 1:39pm
So there is a scenario that exists where GB wins WWII without American involvement and our kick-ass military might of overpowering awesomeness?

(And before anyone yells at me: I'm kidding. Come on, I just finished Mother Night!)
Reply
post #5 of 311
10/24/10 at 1:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
So there is a scenario that exists where GB wins WWII without American involvement and our kick-ass military might of overpowering awesomeness?
The moment Hitler chose to take on the awesome military might of Uncle Joe (which got to Berlin quicker than the combined Allied forces) all Britain needed to do was protect her borders.

Hitler briefly thought about a seaborne invasion of Britain, but neither the Wehrmacht nor the SS field commanders thought it was feasible - especially since the Germans couldn't gain air supremacy and there was the little matter of the Royal Navy, which at the time was the most well equipped in the world.
Reply
post #6 of 311
10/24/10 at 5:26pm
Oh, so it'd be Comrade Fisk if not for the good ole U.S. of A, amirite?
Reply
post #7 of 311
10/24/10 at 5:34pm
Much more likely. You guys kicked ass in the Pacific but 80% of the action in Europe was in the Eastern Front.

On topic now, this too will be easily digested and forgotten about. Because when our guys are torturing and murdering en masse they're badasses who 'get the job done' and 'save innocent lives'. Only when the bad guys do the same things are they worthy of condemnation.
Reply
post #8 of 311
10/24/10 at 6:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Oh, so it'd be Comrade Fisk if not for the good ole U.S. of A, amirite?
No. Stalin wasn't expansionist. Shunned it, even.
Reply
post #9 of 311
10/24/10 at 6:20pm
Man its really disgusting what this report has uncovered. Really disgusting. The US commits worse crimes than the Taliban or any of their supposed enemies. The US has pretty much no crediblity left in the rest of world, but regular Americans will never understand how hated their nation is becoming. But of course, the contents of the wikileaks will not be discussed on American media at all, the consistency of their self censorship is rather incredible.

I shudder to think what the nazi like private security have done in Iraq. Did you know the Iraqi government demanded BlackWater leave their country, and they simply refused? Blackwaters reward for being mass murderers? The US renewed and expanded their contracts.
Reply
post #10 of 311
10/24/10 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
Much more likely. You guys kicked ass in the Pacific but 80% of the action in Europe was in the Eastern Front.

On topic now, this too will be easily digested and forgotten about. Because when our guys are torturing and murdering en masse they're badasses who 'get the job done' and 'save innocent lives'. Only when the bad guys do the same things are they worthy of condemnation.
Well, to your first point: The US provided desperately needed material to the Russians, and also provided a Second and Third Front (Italy, then France) that forced Hitler to divide his military. Would Russia have won without that support? Maybe, maybe not.

On topic: I"m really appalled that Americans now see these kinds of atrocities as acceptable. We have people in Congress decrying those who speak out against these actions as "Terrorists Sympathizers"
Reply
post #11 of 311
10/24/10 at 8:13pm
I wonder, can America truly be shamed over this when a large proportion of its populace either won't know, won't want to know or won't care about the details?
Reply
post #12 of 311
10/24/10 at 8:24pm
Let's not forget that the US campaigns in North Africa and Italy tied up plenty of Axis resources that otherwise could have gone to the Eastern Front.
Reply
post #13 of 311
10/24/10 at 8:49pm
Plus, we had Tom Hanks, Lee Marvin, and Brad Pitt fighting for us, while the Brits had Michael Fassbender. Advantage: Uncle Sam.
Reply
post #14 of 311
10/24/10 at 9:24pm
WikiLeaks vows more revelations

Quote:
WIKILEAKS plans to release another batch of 15,000 classified documents relating to the war in Afghanistan following its weekend disclosure of a ream of US army reports detailing civilian deaths and detainee abuse during the Iraq war.

The new documents would be released in the near future, according to WikiLeaks' Australian founder, Julian Assange, who said he remained committed to the public disclosure of the ''intimate details of war'' despite fierce criticism from world governments.

''We make a promise to our sources, who go through incredible risks sometimes to get us material, that we'll do justice to their efforts and get them the maximum political impact possible,'' a pale and weary-looking Mr Assange told journalists in London.

His pledge came as US and Iraqi officials sought to downplay the significance of the disclosure of almost 400,000 battlefield reports by US soldiers known as ''Sigacts'' - military jargon for reports of significant activity - which have shed new light on the Iraq war's civilian toll.

The revelations prompted a call by the UN's special rapporteur on torture, Austrian human rights lawyer Manfred Nowak, for the US to investigate whether its troops were implicated in any of the incidents detailed.

He said the US had a moral duty to consider the matters even if the alleged violations pre-dated the current government.

''President Obama also has an obligation … to probe whenever there are credible allegations torture has happened - and these allegations are more than credible - and then it is up to the courts.''
Quote:
The Pentagon, while deploring the release of the documents, has not challenged their authenticity.
Quote:
Mr Obama, on a campaign sweep of western states ahead of next week's mid-term congressional elections, has not addressed the issue in any depth, while in Washington, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton issued a pro forma response, condemning the disclosure of any classified information that threatened national security, or put at risk the lives of coalition forces or civilians.

The disclosure was ''shameful'' and something that could ''undermine our nation's security'', according to Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell.

The Pentagon had also issued the results of a recent Associated Press survey showing that Americans had more confidence in the US military than they had in banks, the media, public schools and organised religion.
Reply
post #15 of 311
10/24/10 at 11:31pm
I've had CNN on my television for quite a bit this week, and these WikiLeaks have only been mentioned when political contributors discuss how Bush was right about Iranian influence in Iraq. Nothing about civilian deaths, or anything else for that matter.
Reply
post #16 of 311
10/25/10 at 12:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
I wonder, can America truly be shamed over this when a large proportion of its populace either won't know, won't want to know or won't care about the details?
You're right on all three. Most people will never ever hear about it. The vast majority that hear about it will ignore it. And again the majority of those who don't ignore it won't give a shit that horrible things are happening.
Reply
post #17 of 311
10/25/10 at 9:10am
WikiLeaks Iraq war logs: Nick Clegg calls for investigation of abuse claims
Any suggestions that the rules of war have been broken or torture condoned are 'extremely serious', says deputy PM

Quote:
Allegations of killings, torture and abuse in Iraq contained in leaked US military logs "need to be looked at", Nick Clegg said today.

The deputy prime minister said any suggestion that the rules of war had been broken or torture had been condoned were "extremely serious".

The almost 400,000 secret US army field reports show two cases of alleged involvement of British troops in the abuse of detainees.

Clegg did not rule out the possibility of an inquiry into the actions of British forces in Iraq, but said it was up to the US administration to answer for the actions of its forces.

His comments contrasted with a statement from the Ministry of Defence yesterday, which warned that the posting of classified US military logs on the WikiLeaks website could endanger the lives of British forces.

Clegg told BBC1's The Andrew Marr Show: "We can bemoan how these leaks occurred, but I think the nature of the allegations made are extraordinarily serious. They are distressing to read about and they are very serious. I am assuming the US administration will want to provide its own answer. It's not for us to tell them how to do that."

Asked if there should be an inquiry into the role of British troops, he said: "I think anything that suggests that basic rules of war, conflict and engagement have been broken or that torture has been in any way condoned are extremely serious and need to be looked at."

He added: "People will want to hear what the answer is to what are very, very serious allegations of a nature which I think everybody will find quite shocking."
Reply
post #18 of 311
10/25/10 at 9:22am
Well then Clegg needs to beat that fucking drum until something happens. Lord knows the Lib Dems aren't getting shit else out of that arrangement.
Reply
post #19 of 311
10/25/10 at 10:01am
Clegg's going to continue to get nothing. Probably the most foolhardy "lust for power" move ever made is him accepting that post in that coalition. He's destroyed his party's support and positioned his MPs as yes-men to take the flack for unpopular Tory decisions. Everyone crying over Obama's centrist approach should count their lucky stars they are lumbered with this "liberal" turncoat.
Reply
post #20 of 311
10/25/10 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac View Post
I've had CNN on my television for quite a bit this week, and these WikiLeaks have only been mentioned when political contributors discuss how Bush was right about Iranian influence in Iraq. Nothing about civilian deaths, or anything else for that matter.
CNN is a joke. No offense but all the news channels in the states are a joke. Its being covered on other networks. The Chinese are eating it up, unsurprisingly. Saying it proves the US is far, far worse than the Chinese, that the US abuses of human rights far outweigh those of China. I'd have to agree.
Reply
post #21 of 311
10/25/10 at 11:22am
These Wikileaks are bringing all sorts of interesting details to light. Irans deep involvement and the fact they're pretty much allied to Iraq is quite interesting. Iran appears to be the biggest beneficiary from the Iraq war. Also lots of interesting details on Malaki are emerging from these files.

The full significance of these files won't be understood for a long time, so much will keep coming out as it is digested. Man the US networks in their pledge of self censorship are missing out on some juciy news. Of course they don't won't report on the extremely high civilian death count, and how the US military has been lying about it, so not surprising at all.
Reply
post #22 of 311
10/25/10 at 1:24pm
If journalists were doing the jobs they're supposed to, all of these things would have been brought to life years earlier. But they though that being a journalist meant lounging around a pool in the Green Zone and regurgitating DoD issued press releases.
Reply
post #23 of 311
10/25/10 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac View Post
I've had CNN on my television for quite a bit this week, and these WikiLeaks have only been mentioned when political contributors discuss how Bush was right about Iranian influence in Iraq. Nothing about civilian deaths, or anything else for that matter.
You know, omelets, eggs, that whole thing.
Reply
post #24 of 311
10/25/10 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
I wonder, can America truly be shamed over this when a large proportion of its populace either won't know, won't want to know or won't care about the details?
Normally I hate agreeing with you, but this is pretty much what will happen. It's what happens with every inconvenient truth. I'm reading Noam Chomsky's 'The New Military Humanitarianism' and it's pretty much saying the same thing, albeit about the 'just' NATO intervention in Kosovo in 1999.

Also to all of those people going down the 'we saved yer ass in dubya dubya two' road. Hooray, good for you. To paraphrase Chris Rock 'You fought a maniacal, genocidal, mad man bent on global domination....that's what you're SUPPOSED to do.'.
Reply
post #25 of 311
10/25/10 at 6:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
I wonder, can America truly be shamed over this when a large proportion of its populace either won't know, won't want to know or won't care about the details?
I'm sure Fisk's aiming squarely at the Establishment (White House, Congress, Defence Department, the fawning US media etc.) although there's an argument that says Americans should not be granted a get-out-of-jail-free ticket for their ignorance. After all, it was Thomas Jefferson himself who said "...it is the responsibility of every American to be informed".

Quote:
Plus, we had Tom Hanks, Lee Marvin, and Brad Pitt fighting for us, while the Brits had Michael Fassbender. Advantage: Uncle Sam.
Lee Marvin was a genuine asskicker, but I wouldn't rate the chances of either Tom Hanks or Brad Pitt against genuine articles such as Sean Connery, Michael Caine, Richard Burton, Robert Shaw, Stanley Baker & Jack Hawkins.
Reply
post #26 of 311
10/25/10 at 6:43pm
I see your team and raise you Robert Mitchum, George C. Scott, and John Wayne.
Reply
post #27 of 311
10/25/10 at 8:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
Normally I hate agreeing with you, but this is pretty much what will happen.
Really Spike?
Reply
post #28 of 311
10/25/10 at 11:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Really Spike?
I wouldn't sweat it, Rain Dog. At the end of the day, do you really want someone like Spike Marshall to like you? A more horrible fate, I can't imagine*, to be thought of highly by such a miserable and unlikable cunt.



* Ok, I can actually think of something worse, spending time in person with him.
Reply
post #29 of 311
10/26/10 at 12:23am
Veterans who were closer to the front lines than I was have been bringing these "startling revelations" home for years. Nobody's been listening here in the States. Depending on where you get your news, there might actually be some tidbits in the Wikileaks documents that are surprising. I have difficulty imagining someone not knowing about Iran's relationship with Iraq's shi'ites or the Marine Corps' massacre in Fallujah or the genocidal dirty bomb that is the depleted uranium round, but it's possible I've been in a bubble of my own.
Reply
post #30 of 311
10/27/10 at 4:20am
Which brings us to why was this brought out now?

Simple it proves America is ignorant and the press is elitist and worst of all pushing a new foe to war against.

Iran.
Reply
post #31 of 311
10/28/10 at 12:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Daywalker View Post
Which brings us to why was this brought out now?

Simple it proves America is ignorant and the press is elitist and worst of all pushing a new foe to war against.

Iran.
Sorry Johnny, I may be being dense but I've read this post a few times and I'm still not quite sure what you're trying to say - could you explain it?
Reply
post #32 of 311
10/28/10 at 1:07am
The people here are ignorant to the extreme and that the media perpetuates that and worse is pushing a conflict with Iran.

The media is just a mouth piece for big money and the elite want a conflict to continue in the middle east.

This wikileaks stuff is throwing out truth but could that truth be used to a different more nefarious end?

I hope not but thats what it looks like especially this deflection of Iran involvement in Iraq.
Reply
post #33 of 311
10/28/10 at 1:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Daywalker View Post
The people here are ignorant to the extreme and that the media perpetuates that and worse is pushing a conflict with Iran.

The media is just a mouth piece for big money and the elite want a conflict to continue in the middle east.

This wikileaks stuff is throwing out truth but could that truth be used to a different more nefarious end?

I hope not but thats what it looks like especially this deflection of Iran involvement in Iran.
Well the fact that the Iranian aspect seems to be the only part of the many thousands of bits of leaked info the American media is bothering to cover does certainly infer that possibility I must agree.
Reply
post #34 of 311
10/28/10 at 10:09am
A great interview with Fisk about this that was on aussie tv tonight.
Reply
post #35 of 311
10/28/10 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Really Spike?
I find you overly sentimental and nostalgic for something which may or may not have existed. I look at your posts and see someone staring endlessly backwards.
Reply
post #36 of 311
10/28/10 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post

Also to all of those people going down the 'we saved yer ass in dubya dubya two' road. Hooray, good for you. To paraphrase Chris Rock 'You fought a maniacal, genocidal, mad man bent on global domination....that's what you're SUPPOSED to do.'.
Man, my girlfriend has Asperbergers and even she would have gotten that IT WAS A JOKE.
Reply
post #37 of 311
10/28/10 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Man, my girlfriend has Asperbergers and even she would have gotten that IT WAS A JOKE.
I understood it was a joke. It was just a shitty one which was good for setting up a soapbox.
Reply
post #38 of 311
10/28/10 at 4:23pm
Oh, Spike, you don't need my shitty jokes to get up on your tiny, balsa wood soapbox. You can do bad all by yourself, as the Tyler Perry movie goes.
Reply
post #39 of 311
10/28/10 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Daywalker View Post
The people here are ignorant to the extreme and that the media perpetuates that and worse is pushing a conflict with Iran.

The media is just a mouth piece for big money and the elite want a conflict to continue in the middle east.

This wikileaks stuff is throwing out truth but could that truth be used to a different more nefarious end?

I hope not but thats what it looks like especially this deflection of Iran involvement in Iraq.
Wikileaks is attracting an awful lot of heat from the US & Europe. There have already been a number of attempts to discredit it, smear those involved and even close the place. Perhaps they are trying to throw the White House a bone with the Iran stuff in an effort not to look totally anti-US. These things happen.

If the site continues to attract such ire I can't see it lasting much longer. Too many powerful people are having their toes trod on. My money is them being fed false information which (if it gets past their vetting group) will be used as a pretext to discredit Wikileaks entirely or have it shut down. That or the site will be hacked with the same purpose in mind. If anything this is the most likely outcome as the vetting stage can be bypassed entirely.
Reply
post #40 of 311
10/28/10 at 8:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
I find you overly sentimental and nostalgic for something which may or may not have existed. I look at your posts and see someone staring endlessly backwards.
I'm going to do my darndest to be diplomatic and civil, because I still actually respect you Spike...

I understand that someone employing their emotions when looking at things such as history or politics may confound you somewhat considering your limitations in that area, but I get the feeling you concentrate too closely on that aspect of my posts to ever bother giving any weight to the points I may be making, thus being your blind spot, not mine.
Reply
post #41 of 311
10/29/10 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
I find you overly sentimental and nostalgic for something which may or may not have existed. I look at your posts and see someone staring endlessly backwards.
I try not to call people out but for fuck's sake, Spike. It's time to start acting like a goddamn adult not some shitheel that's hiding behind social dysfunction. What you posted has fuck all to do with whether you agreed with RD or not and nothing to do with the topic at hand, it's all about you wanting to be a jackass towards someone you clearly don't like. Just say "I agree" and move on. It was an unnecessary call out.
Reply
post #42 of 311
10/29/10 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
I try not to call people out but for fuck's sake, Spike. It's time to start acting like a goddamn adult not some shitheel that's hiding behind social dysfunction. What you posted has fuck all to do with whether you agreed with RD or not and nothing to do with the topic at hand, it's all about you wanting to be a jackass towards someone you clearly don't like. Just say "I agree" and move on. It was an unnecessary call out.
He specifically asked for clarification, I gave it to him. Just because he didn't like said clarification doesn't mean I shouldn't have given it to him.
Reply
post #43 of 311
11/26/10 at 9:23pm
Wiki-leaks releasing State Department's internal documents regarding diplomacy and assessments of international diplomats...

I respect the premise of wiki-leaks, even though I equally respect why the government doesn't like them (the interest in secrecy is no less legitimate in some circumstances than the interest in transparency). I'm not going to comment until I see what they release, but I do wonder what good can come out of apparently candid assessments of international leaders and diplomats...
Reply
post #44 of 311
11/26/10 at 9:51pm
I read (on Bloomberg I believe) that the US had to prepare Israel to be especially "embarrassed."
Reply
post #45 of 311
11/27/10 at 8:36am
Not only Israel. US embassy staff is busy all around the world preparing the local governments. The UK government sent a notice to the press not to leak any classified materials, basically saying that by leaking this stuff they endanger the national security. This is going to be fun. I really hope there's some shit regarding Greece in this, too.

The first rumors I've read are supposedly about the US and Turkey stabbing each other in the back. About Turkey providing safe passage and cover to Al Qaeda and the US helping the PKK.
Reply
post #46 of 311
11/27/10 at 8:53am
There exist a number of legitimate reasons for state security. Avoiding embarassment isn't one of them. If Wikileaks was giving out details of troop movements far enough in advance to be of genuine military benefit to hostile nations, they'd be a real problem. I have no problem with airing dirty laundry. The idea that an informed citizen body is healthy and for the common good is one that I'd like to see restored to a place of honor in our country.
Reply
post #47 of 311
11/27/10 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post
There exist a number of legitimate reasons for state security. Avoiding embarassment isn't one of them. If Wikileaks was giving out details of troop movements far enough in advance to be of genuine military benefit to hostile nations, they'd be a real problem. I have no problem with airing dirty laundry. The idea that an informed citizen body is healthy and for the common good is one that I'd like to see restored to a place of honor in our country.

But what need does an informed citizen body have for their governments internal assessments of foreign diplomats?

In this case it's detrimental to their government AND to their own country.
Reply
post #48 of 311
11/27/10 at 1:06pm
Remember kids, it's not about doing horrible things: but whether or not you get caught.

P.S Gutfeld asks, "It makes me wonder that if Julie had secret documents that harmed our enemies – would he share those?" Ignoring the fact that the documents being leaked reveal the Taliban doing everything from using mentally disabled people for suicide bombing to ethnic cleansing.
Reply
post #49 of 311
11/27/10 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirlybird View Post
Remember kids, it's not about doing horrible things: but whether or not you get caught.

P.S Gutfeld asks, "It makes me wonder that if Julie had secret documents that harmed our enemies – would he share those?" Ignoring the fact that the documents being leaked reveal the Taliban doing everything from using mentally disabled people for suicide bombing to ethnic cleansing.
Also ignoring the fact that Wikileaks has already published information about many, many other countries. Of course knowing that would mean actually having a grasp of events occurring past his nose. And we can't have that, can we?
Reply
post #50 of 311
11/27/10 at 3:29pm
Not all transparency is good transparency, even wrt to non-military information. Some secrecy is required for international diplomacy and negotiations.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Political Discourse
CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › "The Shaming of America"