THE DARK KNIGHT RISES Pre-Release Thread - Page 86

Like for example the Joker having a five minute conversation and making him a crazy killer.

To be fair, he was pretty much already gone by that point, all rage and angst and swearing vengeance on Gordon. The Joker just gave him the push he 'needed'.

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Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny 

To be fair to you the film has a lot of moving parts, it moves quickly and not long after Harvey Dent becomes Two-Face, stress fractures begin to show. It feels less distended when you look at the sum, but there are hiccups.

The majority of the Two Face arc is rushed, honestly looking back I still think it would have been better to save him for the sequel. Any secondary villain to the Joker in that film was throwaway anyways, so Nolan's solid take on the Two Face mythos was just totally underutilized.

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Originally Posted by TheCatfishCommander 

 

 

The majority of the Two Face arc is rushed, honestly looking back I still think it would have been better to save him for the sequel. Any secondary villain to the Joker in that film was throwaway anyways, so Nolan's solid take on the Two Face mythos was just totally underutilized.

I somewhat agree with this. On the one hand we already had Scarecrow and the Mob as C list villains. And Harvey Dent's arc has real weight.

On the other hand, he's very similar to the Joker (agent of Chaos, scarred face) so I could see how putting him the third film would seem repetitious, and also seem like Two Face is a "Lesser Joker".

Putting Two Face in TDK serves several functions:

1) Shows how the Joker's evil is spreading, infecting even the most "virtuous" (in quotes because Dent seems a little too extreme from the start).

2) Acknowledges and plays off the similarities of the two villains

3) The Nolan Batman films are, in fact, about Batman, so it makes sense to have the central character face very different threats...

4) and in turn to create new threats by his actions.

Harvey had a dark side, but publicly the guy was a saint and his tactics, while extreme, were born out of the right motivations (the scene where he plays Russian Roulette with the crazy henchman is underscored by the fact that the coin was always going to land heads up). Like the movie says, his image can make him the hero Gotham deserves. He's only Two-Face for the last half hour and it would've been fun to see him get more screentime, but thematically the movie makes it work.

I couldn't see Harvey becoming a crime lord of Gotham, hiring the men he was once trying to put away.  Little too far fetched that someone of his stature would be able to be accepted in the crime world, let alone operate anything without being noticed by every Tom, Dick and Harry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny 

Two-Face isn't a villain in the film, but a broken man on a suicide run. It wouldn't feel dramatically correct to make him into an active, plotting villain in a sequel. However, his mad dash to kill his way through corrupt cops and so on before taking his own life (which is clearly what he intends to do) does border on being dangerously compressed but the film survives it without collapsing and I think successfully closes the loop on its theme.

It works because they built up the character Harvey Dent. He's the most fleshed out character in the film and it's one of the reasons why Nolan chose to focus on him more than he focused on Bruce Wayne. Batman's arc in the film was making the choice not to kill. And it's a good arc, but not one worth more screen time over.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the interpretation of his character.  But I also like the Arkham City Two Face, and it's a shame we didn't get to really spend any time with Two Face the split personality villain.

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Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny 


That's his arc in the first film. In this film it's more about how he chooses to apply or not apply the power he's gained.

 Maybe I should have been more clear. Joker is pushing Batman/Bruce to extremes. It's made clear when Joker and Batman are in the interrogation room and Batman says, "I have one rule." Joker states, "Tonight you're going to break your one rule." And he replies, "I'm considering it."

The arc is this, can Batman endure this madness? Because it would be easy killing the Joker to stop it. In fact, it would be a necessary evil because it could save human lives. This isn't about vengeance anymore, it's about keeping the moral code from corruption.

And that question becomes all too muddy to Bruce Wayne when Alfred tells him the story about the bandit in Berma. "Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bullied are bargained with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Harvey Dent Two Face is the product of Joker's own thinking. There are no rules. There is no morality. There is only happen stance. Because the world doesn't revolve around order. It revolves around chance and chaos. Joker is seducing because he's only half right. The world is what we make it. And the people on the ferries prove him wrong. And Batman takes a chance on them and on himself.

So yes, his arc is about the seduction of killing. Just not for vengeance.

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Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny 

Then what of the comprehensive surveillance device? Yes, killing is a subject that's broached, but it's part of a dilemma wrought with more complexity than just putting the Joker in the dirt.

I don't see how that becomes his arc. The thesis of the film is that there can be order in Chaos but it's not up to us to give into a terrorist to create order. The mob proved that when they decided to hire the clown, all they got was their money burnt and now a madman controlling the city with terror on his side. And at first the people of Gotham were seemingly losing their own moral code by trying to kill Reese because they wanted to give into a terrorist's demands. They made up for it at the ferries. Control is driving the forces of Dent, Gordon, and Batman, until of course Dent realizes there is no control. Part of Batman's arc finishes with the Joker when he lets him live, in spite of the fact he was plummeting to certain death. And rather let nature be the one to kill him (like with Ra's!), he lets Joker live. Then the second part of Batman's arc finishes while he's over Dent's dead body, the moment he realizes Batman's endurance is limitless. And he can use that to CONTROL the situation, even though Joker really did win.

Double post.

Jesus, triple post!

EDIT: in any case, I think we're both saying the same things here.

Got bored and skimmed through The Dark Knight again today. While watching the end credits I noticed that Bob Kane is still credited as sole creator of Batman. This is kind of upsetting to me as I thought Bill Finger had been credited as co-creator years ago. I guess I was mistaken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkyTjCoPY5g

More samples of the score. Love this shit!
 

I think it's all due to legal wrangling, not any intended slight on WB's part. I was under the impression the "created by" credits for Batman has been through the courts at least once, and that, unofficially, most people in the know agree that Finger got screwed on credits and money.

I thought the Jack Napier created Batman?

Had a weird dream last night, one of those dreams I have sometimes where I imagine I'm watching a movie I've been anticipating for a while, and it turns out to be bizarre and uneventful.

First, there's a meta-dream aspect to it, where it's close to wake-up time, so you are becoming partially conscious of the dream and how weird and pointless it is and beginning to subconsciously question why you are stuck here. In the meta-dream layer, I keep trying to see the movie, but end up having to leave the theatre about 30 minutes in due to family obligations. I end up seeing the first 30 minutes at least 3 different times, in slightly different permutations.

Batman's part of the storyline is that he's not dealing with any of the crisis, and him and his buddies are just trying to get on a plane out of town, like the early stages of a typical disaster movie. Of course, the plane keeps getting stuck on the runway and can't take off. I keep thinking to myself, while watching from the meta-dream layer "Goddamn this is a boring way to start the movie! Is anything good EVER going to happen?"

Then we finally cut to Bane and crew entering a mall department store, Nordstrom or Filenes or something. While the crew disperses to ransack the women's swimwear department, Bane announces "Hello, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Bane.". I think to myself "That's it? That's all he's going to say with that awesome voice of his?". He then proceeds to take off his mask, revealing a surprisingly normal mouth area, and start munching on a big tin of caramel covered popcorn. End scene.

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Originally Posted by Kyle Reese 

Had a weird dream last night, one of those dreams I have sometimes where I imagine I'm watching a movie I've been anticipating for a while, and it turns out to be bizarre and uneventful.

 

First, there's a meta-dream aspect to it, where it's close to wake-up time, so you are becoming partially conscious of the dream and how weird and pointless it is and beginning to subconsciously question why you are stuck here. In the meta-dream layer, I keep trying to see the movie, but end up having to leave the theatre about 30 minutes in due to family obligations. I end up seeing the first 30 minutes at least 3 different times, in slightly different permutations.

 

Batman's part of the storyline is that he's not dealing with any of the crisis, and him and his buddies are just trying to get on a plane out of town, like the early stages of a typical disaster movie. Of course, the plane keeps getting stuck on the runway and can't take off. I keep thinking to myself, while watching from the meta-dream layer "Goddamn this is a boring way to start the movie! Is anything good EVER going to happen?"

 

Then we finally cut to Bane and crew entering a mall department store, Nordstrom or Filenes or something. While the crew disperses to ransack the women's swimwear department, Bane announces "Hello, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Bane.". I think to myself "That's it? That's all he's going to say with that awesome voice of his?". He then proceeds to take off his mask, revealing a surprisingly normal mouth area, and start munching on a big tin of caramel covered popcorn. End scene.

Batception. Nolan's gonna have to enter your mind to convince you it won't be a piece of shit movie now.

I used to have Jurassic Park IV dreams that were weird and fucking awesome at the same time. I would wake up and take a shower and still believe that I had watched a trailer for it. 10 minutes later I came to my senses.

Hehe. Once I woke up and snapped out of it, I was relieved. Of course it's still going to be great.

There might have been a few quick scenes in there with Psycho Bale/Wayne snapping at the stewardesses while stuck on the Gotham airport runway, but I can't remember the specifics.

Judging by the activities of my subconscious mind, if Schumacher made a 3rd Batfilm, I would've been a good writer for it.
 

Carnotaur, was your JP4 trailer dream as good as my Lost: Season 7 dream, where the Island is a nuclear wasteland, with crude oil washing up in the beach, and all the characters are stuck in a mysterious Nazi-style death camp?

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Originally Posted by Kyle Reese 

Hehe. Once I woke up and snapped out of it, I was relieved. Of course it's still going to be great.

 

There might have been a few quick scenes in there with Psycho Bale/Wayne snapping at the stewardesses while stuck on the Gotham airport runway, but I can't remember the specifics.

 

Judging by the activities of my subconscious mind, if Schumacher made a 3rd Batfilm, I would've been a good writer for it.
 

Your dreams make more sense than Batman & Robin.

Yeah but at this point it's pretty much accepted by everyone that Finger did almost all of the work. He created the batmobile, batcave, Robin, Catwoman, and the fucking Batsuit. All Bob Kane did was come up with the name really. Now that they're both dead I thought this would have changed a while ago. I was just surprised that it hadn't. 

A similar situation happened with Stan Lee and Steve Ditko on Spiderman and because of Raimi, Ditko got a co-creator credit on the first movie even though he wasn't legally owed one. 

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Originally Posted by Odo19 

Yeah but at this point it's pretty much accepted by everyone that Finger did almost all of the work. He created the batmobile, batcave, Robin, Catwoman, and the fucking Batsuit. All Bob Kane did was come up with the name really. Now that they're both dead I thought this would have changed a while ago. I was just surprised that it hadn't. 

 

A similar situation happened with Stan Lee and Steve Ditko on Spiderman and because of Raimi, Ditko got credited as co-creator on the first movies credits even though he wasn't owed anything. 

Technically, the serial created the Batcave. And Alfred. Finger just brought them into the comics after getting a rundown on what Hollywood was planning.

But, yeah, Bill Finger and Jerry Robinson got screwed over big time by Bob Kane. There certainly wouldn't be a Batman, period, without Bob Kane, but Batman as we know him wouldn't exist without Finger and Robinson.

Finger definitely deserves credit but don't shit over Bob Kane while doing it. He is still equally the co-creator as well. There would be no Batman without him just as much as Bill Finger. What happened to Bill Finger sucks and isn't right but the fight is for Finger to get a co-creator credit not take away Kane's.

BTW, Stan Lee was always gracious about a co-creator credit. He never took sole credit. He was just the most personable as was Kane and he sold himself well.

Yeah, I don't know about that. By all accounts Kane went out of his way to downplay most of his contributions until Finger's death in the 70's. He also tried to take credit for things that Finger, without a doubt did, like naming Batman Bruce Wayne and making him a detective/scientist. This is all readily available information, btw. I mean seriously..what the fuck DC/WB? If you can't publicly give him credit for whatever legal reason then how about having something like "Special Thanks to Bill Finger for his contributions to the Batman Mythos" during the credits? Mark Millar and Brian Michael Bendis got a special thanks at the end of The Avengers because of their work on The Ultimates and I'm assuming Marvel didn't have to do that but did it anyway out of gratitude.

Anyway more of the score in the new Chrysler commercial.

I caught this a few seconds in while watching a game today, totally thought it was a new trailer until the very end haha

Take it from me, if you drink too much Mountain Dew, you will not be in shape to fight crime.

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Originally Posted by Odo19 

Mark Millar and Brian Michael Bendis got a special thanks at the end of The Avengers because of their work on The Ultimates and I'm assuming Marvel didn't have to do that but did it anyway out of gratitude.

Or out of avoiding having to pay them. Remember, Jim Starlin had to pay for his own ticket to go see his own creation on the big screen. The flick has now made $600 million domestic and not one penny of that has gone to Jack Kirby's heirs. And so on and so on. Work for hire sucks.

anyone else seeing the Dark Knight Rises toy comercials?

No, but I hope the Alfred action figure gets an ad all to himself.

NEW DARKKNIGHTRISES ALFRED COMPLETE WITH 40 POINTS OF ARTICULATION AND AWESOME TRAY HOLDING ACTION!

Actually, that's a point. I'm sure I saw an ad for six figures but it only said what five of them were: Batman, Bane, Catwoman, Gordon, and Alfred. Who is number six? Batrick McGoohan?

Obviously the cop with the hat. Most prominent figure of the ad campaign.

Lucious Fox and his incredible arm folding action.

"Thissssssssss is wrong Mr Wayne":

John Blake with transforming action: from beat cop to masked vigilante.  But, which one?  Robin or Nightwing?

you want me to punch my monitor Neoolong?

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Originally Posted by Sentinel Red 
Actually, that's a point. I'm sure I saw an ad for six figures but it only said what five of them were: Batman, Bane, Catwoman, Gordon, and Alfred. Who is number six? Batrick McGoohan?

How old are you? You need update your pop culture references, pops.

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Originally Posted by Monster Pete 

you want me to punch my monitor Neoolong?

...yes?

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Originally Posted by Chris Myers 

Obviously the cop with the hat. Most prominent figure of the ad campaign.

Those are just repurposed J. Jonah Jameson dolls left over from Spider-Man 3. 

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Originally Posted by Naisu Baddi 

How old are you? You need update your pop culture references, pops.

My avatar wants to sic a roaring white beach ball with elephantitis on yo heathen derriere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jBIsSqiaLg&feature=player_embedded

New spot. I hear the BB voice more than I hear the TDK voice. Either way. I like it. Some good Catwoman/Batman banter.
 

Not sure if it's the poor screen grab or the scenes, but that felt....not good...to me.

Batvoice was fine.

New TV Spot

Hey, I huge fan of Batman and i wait for the THE DARK KNIGHT Rises.I watched all movies of him he has great action hero i like him and all teenagers also want to got batman powers.My execeptation are really up for this movie because i'm watched the trailer of this movie.