The 2012 Elections Thread - Page 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spook 

And that, my friends, is why Mitt Romney is polling at 47% vs at 0%.

Yes, Mangy.  Don't you see because you didn't recognize that one specific Steinbeck quote, it is indicative of the ignorance of the American electorate??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

 

Yes, Mangy.  Don't you see because you didn't recognize that one specific Steinbeck quote, it is indicative of the ignorance of the American electorate??

No, this is indicative of the ignorance of the American electorate.

I thought Romney WAS the safe and boring guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

...the political left are pussies

Except for Obama.  Say what you want, but he's bringing out the brass nuckles, nunchakus, and spiked bats - it's no wonder he's the most powerful man in the world.  This election is more or less in the bag, and the idea that it isn't is a story made-up to sell ads in newspapers and on TV ... I kinda feels silly that I thought otherwise almost the entire summer.  Simple mathematics do NOT show that this race is going to be close - This article was published a week ago and Romney had another major screw up today, plus today's Fox News poll shows his margins shrinking:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/04/michael-tomasky-on-the-possible-coming-obama-landslide.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parker 

 

It's not just that they're stupid (not all of them), it's that the GOP convinces them that they could be millionaires one day while hooking them in with social issues that matter to them. And yeah, some of them are stupid who think they'll be rich one day and don't want the GOV-MENT TELLIN' EM WHAT TA DO!

Well try starting a business in California. Try getting all the permits, understanding (much less complying with) all the regulations. And bear in mind many people who start a new business have never actually run one before. But imagine that, against all the odds, you've succeeded to some extent, and are now looking at a stagnant economy stretching off into the distance, no end in sight, and the prospect of your taxes going up, which just may push your business into bankruptcy. Oh and (if you make the mistake of listening to Talk Radio), you believe a lot of people in the Democratic Party actively hate you and what you represent (and let's face it, the Dems have some loons who do believe that).

Now their beliefs don't seem so dumb or irrational, do they?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

 

Yes, Mangy.  Don't you see because you didn't recognize that one specific Steinbeck quote, it is indicative of the ignorance of the American electorate??

He's polling at 47% because of Steinbeck's point, not because people can't recognize a Steinbeck reference.

Unless you were being facetious?

I'm not clear on your point Spook: Am I a sad example of America's capitalist delusion or a sad example of America's cultural illiteracy? Please advise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spook 

 

He's polling at 47% because of Steinbeck's point, not because people can't recognize a Steinbeck reference.

 

Unless you were being facetious?

No, I thought you were saying that Romney was polling at 47% because people like Mangy didn't get your point.  It was a misunderstanding.  Sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

 

Well try starting a business in California. Try getting all the permits, understanding (much less complying with) all the regulations. And bear in mind many people who start a new business have never actually run one before. But imagine that, against all the odds, you've succeeded to some extent, and are now looking at a stagnant economy stretching off into the distance, no end in sight, and the prospect of your taxes going up, which just may push your business into bankruptcy. Oh and (if you make the mistake of listening to Talk Radio), you believe a lot of people in the Democratic Party actively hate you and what you represent (and let's face it, the Dems have some loons who do believe that).

 

Now their beliefs don't seem so dumb or irrational, do they?

So you're saying they're starting a small business, they've never done it before and they don't understand what they're doing but yet somehow succeed enough to make a profit, are angry at a sagging economy and surprised at the fact that they have to pay taxes on what they're earning?  No, they still seem pretty fucking dumb and irrational.

What are you suggesting the solution is? Giving them whatever the hell they want? Making them tax exempt? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

 

Well try starting a business in California. Try getting all the permits, understanding (much less complying with) all the regulations. And bear in mind many people who start a new business have never actually run one before. But imagine that, against all the odds, you've succeeded to some extent, and are now looking at a stagnant economy stretching off into the distance, no end in sight, and the prospect of your taxes going up, which just may push your business into bankruptcy. Oh and (if you make the mistake of listening to Talk Radio), you believe a lot of people in the Democratic Party actively hate you and what you represent (and let's face it, the Dems have some loons who do believe that).

 

Now their beliefs don't seem so dumb or irrational, do they?

Have you started a small business?  It's really not that difficult in the US.  The California department of state's website actually has very helpful FAQs and forms.

If you're in a heavily regulated area (sanitation, health, etc.), then it's heavily regulated for good reason.  You shouldn't be able to interface with the public without a modicum of government oversight.

Also:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2012/01/stiglitz-depression-201201

Great article.

That is good article, although the author is "talking his book" aka his own research. The only problem is it is politically unfeasible to launch a massive new investment program (and it would need to be MASSIVE) because 1) the US is already in hock and 2) a sizable percentage of Americans simply will not support it.

But Stiglitz does bolster my belief that we should be building Pyramids as a spending program, along with some Sphinx's (because one is not enough!).

I have no problem stating that Reid is going about this a bit stupidly, in that he's acting like a dick, which will turn people off. He could have brought this up in a way that wasn't as heavy on the insinuation. But the right has DEFINITELY had an iron grip on the discussion of income inequality. There are indeed plenty of people who don't get how badly the game is rigged.

Let me put it this way: systemic criticism can be easily turned into "Class warfare!" and "You're a commie! You hate America!" But flat out revealing that the wealthy, like Romney, are stashing their money offshore in order to avoid paying taxes? THAT, people have a problem with. It directly contradicts the "trickle-down" narrative that the right has enshrined as gospel, and looks kind of traitorous to boot. The average, non-rich Republican has been persuaded to vote against their interests many a time, but there's a certain way of talking about it that works, and others that just don't. I know us lefties sit around tearing their hair out over this and screaming "Why can't they see?!?" but again, there's a very specific set of propaganda that the average right-wing voter has been fed. If the rich were openly chuckling callously while lighting cigars with $100 bills and blowing smoke in everyone's face, the rationalization mechanisms would start to break down pretty quick. And Romney has, metaphorically, been doing this kind of thing for a while. Revealing that he had done some dodgy stuff to keep his taxes low might be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

I have no problem stating that Reid is going about this a bit stupidly, in that he's acting like a dick, which will turn people off. He could have brought this up in a way that wasn't as heavy on the insinuation. But the right has DEFINITELY had an iron grip on the discussion of income inequality. There are indeed plenty of people who don't get how badly the game is rigged.

 

Let me put it this way: systemic criticism can be easily turned into "Class warfare!" and "You're a commie! You hate America!" But flat out revealing that the wealthy, like Romney, are stashing their money offshore in order to avoid paying taxes? THAT, people have a problem with. It directly contradicts the "trickle-down" narrative that the right has enshrined as gospel, and looks kind of traitorous to boot. The average, non-rich Republican has been persuaded to vote against their interests many a time, but there's a certain way of talking about it that works, and others that just don't. I know us lefties sit around tearing their hair out over this and screaming "Why can't they see?!?" but again, there's a very specific set of propaganda that the average right-wing voter has been fed. If the rich were openly chuckling callously while lighting cigars with $100 bills and blowing smoke in everyone's face, the rationalization mechanisms would start to break down pretty quick. And Romney has, metaphorically, been doing this kind of thing for a while. Revealing that he had done some dodgy stuff to keep his taxes low might be the straw that broke the camel's back.

That's exactly my hope as well.  And I'm pretty sure that's what Reid is trying to accomplish.  There's no way to go about this but the way Reid's going about this if you're going to fit the narrative in soundbites.

The narrative is going against Romney here, and as the Rude Pundit says, it pretty much is because he's an unlikeable prick.

You can be an entitled rich idiot and still be likeable — Dubya must've struck a lot of folks as the kind of guy they'd feel comfortable having a beer with. But an entitled rich idiot that reminds you of the assholes in '80s teen movies, no.

Romney needs to win over the middle if he's going to win. He's not going to do either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Blank 

But an entitled rich idiot that reminds you of the assholes in '80s teen movies, no.

Good god, that is so perfect.  Someone needs to make a fake trailer for this, ideally with Zabka playing Romney.

LOL

Greg Marmalard

To me, he always seemed like one of the rich corporate asshole types from V or They Live. The type of guy that looks too pleasant and put together. You just know there's a lizard under there somewhere. 

Walter Peck was just trying to enforce EPA regulations! Romney totally would've sided with the Ghostbusters. If only to buy them out, outsource Janine, lay off Winston and bring in cheaper unskilled labourers, thus dramatically increasing Ghostbusters, Inc's profit margins before selling them to the Koch brothers for four or five times what he bought them for.

I love all this "Obama is playing dirty and saying mean stuff!" bullshit. Jesus Christ. You are all aware of the nation-wide voter suppression going on from the GOP? But yeah, Reid said some unfounded stuff and is the only one playing dirty. At least he's not insinuating that a public figure (Huma Abedin) is a goddamn terrorist, like some of our other elected leaders. What's the outrage? That Reid is a prick and a political bastard? Yeah, that's why he's SENATE MAJORITY LEADER. Obama supported him through a tough 2010 reelection (so tough Nate Silver predicted a loss) and it's payback time. I understand this stuff ain't pretty. I wish it could be another way. But it can't be. This is day 1 stuff. Karl Rove said he was worried about going up against Obama's Chicago machine. A lot of progressives considered that to be hyperbole or whatever. But he was serious. It's nasty shit, for sure. But however you feel about it, it's politically pretty goddamn brilliant. The "Romney killed my wife!" ad... yeah, maybe not so much that one. That's not helping anyone. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

 

Yes, Mangy.  Don't you see because you didn't recognize that one specific Steinbeck quote, it is indicative of the ignorance of the American electorate??

If Romney wins, will Sarah Palin get to tend to them rabbits?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

I love all this "Obama is playing dirty and saying mean stuff!" bullshit. Jesus Christ. You are all aware of the nation-wide voter suppression going on from the GOP? But yeah, Reid said some unfounded stuff and is the only one playing dirty. At least he's not insinuating that a public figure (Huma Abedin) is a goddamn terrorist, like some of our other elected leaders. What's the outrage? That Reid is a prick and a political bastard? Yeah, that's why he's SENATE MAJORITY LEADER. Obama supported him through a tough 2010 reelection (so tough Nate Silver predicted a loss) and it's payback time. I understand this stuff ain't pretty. I wish it could be another way. But it can't be. This is day 1 stuff. Karl Rove said he was worried about going up against Obama's Chicago machine. A lot of progressives considered that to be hyperbole or whatever. But he was serious. It's nasty shit, for sure. But however you feel about it, it's politically pretty goddamn brilliant. The "Romney killed my wife!" ad... yeah, maybe not so much that one. That's not helping anyone. 

You can be totally ruthless and a bastard and do it intelligently. If the Dems simply pointed to things like the McCarthyism aimed at Huma Abedin, or talk about WHY IT MATTERS that Romney is most likely refusing to release his taxes, they would blast the hell out of the GOP instead of ecking out marginal gains.

I know I already said my piece, but I mean for the love of GOD, Obama has a list of people that he chooses from to have assassinated. American citizens. No trial, no congressional approval, no voting... he picks them out and they are blown apart by flying robots. Targeted, repeated, death. This man is a constitutional lawyer with a Nobel Peace Prize who openly murders US citizens with no due process.

But hey, having a surrogate insinuate some rich piece of shit maybe didn't pay taxes? That's the bridge too far! I can't tell if it's naivety or cognitive dissonance, or if ya'll are giving Obama a pass on that because "hey, war, and stuff?" but I honestly am so outraged and drinking wine and stuff so you know. I'm sorry. I'm not mad at you. Just drinking wine. Thinking about flying killer robots. And the guy who controls them, who I'm apparently convinced is the LESSER of two evils. Strange times. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

 

But hey, having a surrogate insinuate some rich piece of shit maybe didn't pay taxes? That's the bridge too far! I can't tell if it's naivety or cognitive dissonance, or if ya'll are giving Obama a pass on that because "hey, war, and stuff?" but I honestly am so outraged and drinking wine and stuff so you know. I'm sorry. I'm not mad at you. Just drinking wine. Thinking about flying killer robots. And the guy who controls them, who I'm apparently convinced is the Awesome! Because, flying killer robuts!

Fixed! Drink that wine!

Meanwhile Nate Cohn at The New Republic has a more sober view of the election:

http://www.tnr.com/blog/electionate/105912/obama-has-the-advantage-90-days-go

I don't think you guys are thinking of the children. Are you thinking of the children?

But really, I would dispute this notion that the Democrats aren't being smart in this election cycle. I think they are being downright diabolical in terms of intelligence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

I don't think you guys are thinking of the children. Are you thinking of the children?

Damn straight....it's the GOP that are truly thinking of the children.....once those stupid child labor laws are repealed the country will be able to move forward.

Hey, that coal isn't going to dig itself out.

:)

Are we still pretending the Democrats have ever been ethically superior to Republicans and vice-versa when it comes to campaigning?

Because that's an incredibly silly and naive thing to pretend.

Also historically ignorant.

EDIT for clarification:  When I say 'campaigning', I do mean just the act of talking up your candidate vs attacking their candidate.  Actually doing things to actively prevent voters from being able to vote doesn't fall under that definition and goes beyond the pale for acceptable behavior.

Voter suppression != mean campaign ads, or whatever. The equivalence game is historically ignorant, in this case.

Also, that list of Americans targeted for assassination is made up of Americans that have publicly stated they are in the service of al-Qaeda. The Passport argument there is pretty rock-solid. Go to another country, join al-Qaeda, you are no longer an American citizen. 

I think its incredibly ugly, what happened to al-Awlaki's son. But I also tend to think everything about this war has been ugly, from 9-11 to Iraq to Afghan soldiers murdering their NATO trainers. I don't think there's a clear through-line as to what constitutes ethical or not, but acting like Obama has drones just circling around, murdering U.S. citizen willy-nilly is stupid. At least the (current) President's goals have led to a general shrinking of our military footprint in Afghanistan (and the need to maintain a light footprint is what drives the usage of drone strikes and Special Forces in Pakistan, which is Biden's project, and its honestly the only fucking option that makes any sense in an insane, beshitted conflict).

Some of the pretzel twisting here to defend Reid and Obama at any cost, using terms that I find indistinguishable from how conservatives justify their dangerous logic, truly demonstrates why, in my heart, I'm done with both parties (despite the fact that I vote reluctantly for one of those parties).

'The parties are indistinguishable!!'

Okay, be sure to remember that when you have 6 or 7 insane Republican appointees sitting on the Supreme Court.

ETA: Sarah Palin somehow swooping into the Republican Convention would be hysterical. Jeb Bush swooping in, with Marco Rubio in tow, would be significantly less funny.

I said that the terms used by members of both parties to defend their own at any cost are indistinguishable to me, even though some of the Democrats here are absolutely insisting that it's completely different when they do it, not the general platforms of the parties themselves (although the two parties certainly do share similarities in ways that I find frankly disturbing).  I would never say that Democrats are just the same as Republicans, even though I'm tired of the Democratic Party leadership in many ways and wish that there was a more viable progressive alternative that I could support.

It's so nice to see Jews and Christians putting aside their differences and coming together to hate gays.
 

If he didn't carpet bomb his opponents with similar ads in the primaries or is actually running on his record at Bain, I would say he has a point....

Would you like some Whine with that Cheese Governor Romney?

Translation:   Stop talking about my record at Bain and just be more like John Kerry pretty please?   It really is a nonstop whine fest on the Republican side these days.   That's why I'm all for the President using these tactics.   THEY WORK.

In convention news, Newt Gingrich, Michelle Bachman, Herman Cain, Ron Paul, and Rick Perry have not been invited to speak at the Republican Convention.   I just find this pretty unusual for so many primary opponents not to be invited to speak on behalf of the nominee.   It's not always like this, is it?   I seem to remember just about all of Obama's primary opponents got a speaking gig at his convention.   That's the time to mend fences and display party unity.   Not so in Romney World I guess.   The question is, is this because Romney doesn't like his opponents that much or that his opponents really don't like Romney?

As for Reid's secret source?   I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's McCain.   After all, he saw 23 years of Romney's tax returns...

Romney's Republican opponents don't like him:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/07/a-republican-chorus-calls-for-romney-to-release-tax-returns/259972/

Neither do dogs:

well, everyone is reporting that Ryan is the VP choice.   ??

So long, dental plan.

I called Ryan being the VP pick months ago although I despise him so it just really coalesces the GOP ticket in utter poisonous hatred for me and want to see them crushed even more.

....although, this is Romney so he may change his mind by tomorrow.   :)

 this news reminded my of this old crappy SNL skit

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkuf7m_saturday-night-live-a-couple-of-white-guys_fun

I'm kind of shocked that Romney chose Ryan.   He would have fared much better with Rubio.   With Ryan, Romney is changing the narrative of his campaign from "Referendom on 4 Years of Obama" to a discussion of what the Republicans are offering as an alternative.   The part that's really going to hurt Romney?   One of the major planks of the Ryan Plan is getting Seniors off Medicare and into a Voucher Program.   If there's one thing you don't fuck around with, it's Medicare and Social Security.   In other words, Romney pretty much lost Florida.

Get the popcorn out, this is going to be fun....

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynamotv 

   He would have fared much better with Rubio.   

I guarantee Rubio was asked, and he quite rightly told the Romney campaign to pound sand, so Rubes can run in 2016.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynamotv 

   One of the major planks of the Ryan Plan is getting Seniors off Medicare and into a Voucher Program.   If there's one thing you don't fuck around with, it's Medicare and Social Security.   In other words, Romney pretty much lost Florida.

 

 

I don't get this move.  They want the election to be about Obama and now they opened the door big time to be all about Ryan's budget.  Bad move. 

Romney REALLY doesn't want to run on anything about him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratty 

 

I guarantee Rubio was asked, and he quite rightly told the Romney campaign to pound sand, so Rubes can run in 2016.  

Apparently, Rubio was called with the bad news so he was definitely in play for the big seat.    Apparently, according to NBC News, Romney's son Tagg was the one who called the short listers with the bad news.   Seems like a Mitt thing to do.

I couldn't think of a worse choice from the finalists. Romney must really like losing.

Please God let this be a referendum on idiotic austerity and have the GOP ticket lose badly to the point where assholes like Ryan are neutered in the party.