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All of This TSA Hoopla

post #1 of 248
11/18/10 at 11:05pm
Thread Starter 
Does it give you second thoughts on air travel?

If you won't submit to screening, you won't fly, TSA says
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post #2 of 248
11/18/10 at 11:09pm
I am SO opting for the pat-down from now on. Frankly, I'm excited about it.



Huuuh? HUUUUHH?!?
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post #3 of 248
11/18/10 at 11:18pm
It just amuses how the automatic assumption is that the TSA is staffed by nothing but perverts who were hired with no background check and who get off on doing patdowns.
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post #4 of 248
11/18/10 at 11:41pm
Go through the vision detector thing or get a fucking pat down and get on the plane.

Jesus Christ, people.
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post #5 of 248
11/18/10 at 11:51pm
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

*EDIT* The pat downs are a clear violation of the 4th Amendment.
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post #6 of 248
11/18/10 at 11:57pm
The video wouldn't bother me if it was like Total Recall and you could only see bones, metal, etc, but I'm not down with basically appearing naked on the thing, and no one should be. It's no doubt recorded in case they have to review it too, I would think. Not cool.

I'm going for the pat-down, with the largest erection I can muster. Doesn't matter who's doing the pat-down.
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post #7 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:00am
It's always sad to realize how many people buy into the reasoning that, if a person has nothing to hide, a person has nothing to worry about when his or her basic right to privacy is breached. It's like they don't understand that they're endorsing a line of reasoning that is a direct attack on most of the things that modern Western democracies have been built upon since the Magna Carta.

That and the widespread acceptance of America engaging in torture get to me. Bush was a transformational president, in all the worst ways.
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post #8 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus-7 View Post
The video wouldn't bother me if it was like Total Recall and you could only see bones, metal, etc, but I'm not down with basically appearing naked on the thing, and no one should be. It's no doubt recorded in case they have to review it too, I would think. Not cool.
The goverment has constantly lied about the extent of the testing with these scanners, as well as the pat downs. They said the scanner images couldn't be saved, and that's been shown to be as blatant a lie as humanly possible.

As for those that are saying the TSA folks are paragons of virtue, really? Have you ever met with a low level government official?
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post #9 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:02am
I dont buy into the "if you have nothing to hide" garbage. I just dont see how a quick pat down before you get on a plane is the end of the world.
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post #10 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
I just dont see how a quick pat down before you get on a plane is the end of the world.
The searches are a big more invasive than this. Putting hands into bras to search the cups is humiliating, especially for the women.
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post #11 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
I just dont see how a quick pat down before you get on a plane is the end of the world.
They're more in-depth than that. It's a slippery slope. Next thing you know, people will be randomly pulled aside to get a finger up their ass, and it'll be accepted... "for our safety". That's bullshit.
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post #12 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
I dont buy into the "if you have nothing to hide" garbage. I just dont see how a quick pat down before you get on a plane is the end of the world.
Quick is a relative thing... the pat down actually takes a couple of minutes. It's a LOT longer than they used to be.

I'm all for pilots and crew being able to opt out out of the scanner dealio. The background checks and additional screenings they undergo as part of the job should be enough... metal detect and pat them down if you need to, but they get more radiation on a day-to-day than about 95% of anybody else doing any kind of work (unless it involves space-walking 12 hours a day for a week... that would be more).
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post #13 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus-7 View Post
They're more in-depth than that. It's a slippery slope. Next thing you know, people will be randomly pulled aside to get a finger up their ass, and it'll be accepted... "for our safety". That's bullshit.
I don't think you even need to argue slippery slope with this stuff; even as it occurs. Last week it was forceful pat downs, this week the rules changed to include going inside pants and bras. Slippery slope is occurring but the fact of the matter is that buying an airline ticket has now made you a suspected terrorist.
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post #14 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
It's always sad to realize how many people buy into the reasoning that, if a person has nothing to hide, a person has nothing to worry about when his or her basic right to privacy is breached. It's like they don't understand that they're endorsing a line of reasoning that is a direct attack on most of the things that modern Western democracies have been built upon since the Magna Carta.

That and the widespread acceptance of America engaging in torture get to me. Bush was a transformational president, in all the worst ways.
God, shut the fuck up. That's fucking unbelievable. For those seven hours you're on a plane, your actions so heavily affect those around you, your personal privacy matters less than protecting those on the plane with you. And if you don't like how the privately-owned airlines, in tandem with the goverment, choose to enforce that safety (and it's not like they're doing full cavity searches here), then don't...fucking...fly. Drive. You're from California. You should be all about the driving. Until then, suck it up and realize it has jack shit to do with our right to privacy.

Please, come up with a more reasoned solution in between talking about what a stud you are with women. Please.
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post #15 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:52am
You know what? It's not a Constitutional right to get on an airplane. When you buy that ticket, you're accepting the rules and regulations that go along with it. I suppose it's an infringement of your rights to make you wear your seatbelt during takeoff too, huh?
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post #16 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:53am
Wouldn't bother me a bit. Gawk at will. I doubt they get much of a rise out of whatever they see, but if they do, it'll be my pleasure to brighten up their day by however much I can. I've dumped my pockets, walked through detectors, been wanded and patted for years. A fancy-shmancy X-ray machine bothers and inconveniences me far less - and makes me weep for my species less - than the panicked fright that resulted in my not being able to carry a drink on a plane.

That said, there's plenty on an airplane that a determined group of men could use to hijack it anyway. Good intelligence and an armed marshal or whatever on every second flight would be more effective, I think.
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post #17 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:55am
What gets me too is how a lot of the people who are like, "We should have security like Israel" would be the first ones to lose their shit when they saw guards with automatic weapons in the terminals.
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post #18 of 248
11/19/10 at 12:58am
I am with Tzu and Cuch. Patdowns are already abused even when they are supposedly justified by law and carried out by trained law enforcement personnel. I take offense at the idea that Americans should be expected to submit to invasive searches by untrained TSA personnel (who have been exposed in the past to violate the law and generally be incompetent) as a matter of course when engaging in public transportation

To answer the question posted in POST ONE: Yes, it does give me second thoughts about plane travel, as much fun as flying can be

I think it's time we look to high speed rail instead, and a return to an age of luxuriant ocean liner excursions

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post #19 of 248
11/19/10 at 1:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
I take offense at the idea that Americans should be expected to submit to evasive searches by untrained TSA personnel (who have been exposed in the past to violate the law and generally be incompetent) as a matter of course when engaging in public transportation
There have been doctors who have been exposed in the past to violate the law and generally be incompetent, but I bet you still go to the gynecologist.
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post #20 of 248
11/19/10 at 1:00am
Anybody know an anyone that owns an airport?
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post #21 of 248
11/19/10 at 1:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
What gets me too is how a lot of the people who are like, "We should have security like Israel" would be the first ones to lose their shit when they saw guards with automatic weapons in the terminals.
Wait, what -- when did they get removed?

I remember guards with SMGs in DFW back in 2000. I'm certainly travelling in the US much less now, though ...
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post #22 of 248
11/19/10 at 1:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
There have been doctors who have been exposed in the past to violate the law and generally be incompetent, but I bet you still go to the gynecologist.
An OBGYN has years of study and training that your average TSA employee lacks, and the doctor patient relationship is one based on trust and professionalism. A TSA screener is someone who you've never met before and will never see again, and whose qualifications and personal record you are not entitled to know. There have been countless TSA horror stories in the decade since 9/11, and I don't think my concerns are unjustified or out of line

EDIT: And more over, I agree with Tzu that it's a 4th Amendment issue when you get right down to it
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post #23 of 248
11/19/10 at 1:22am
All of this sounds super sexy to me. I wonder what the TSA employees would do if someone started emitting little moans or orgasmic gasps while they were being patted down (much like Ron Swanson getting his shoes polished for all of you "Parks and Recreation" fans).
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post #24 of 248
11/19/10 at 1:50am
I could understand the position of many of you supporting these measures if it could be objectively proven that they are definitely making everyone safer.

...but - are we talking about security or 'security theatre' when it comes to many of these new measures?

Quote:
Lots of people are telling airport-security stories these days. Thus far I have refrained from doing so, even though I travel a lot, because I think the TSA security screeners generally do a good job. But last week I saw something so dumb that I just have to share it.

I'm in the security-checkpoint line at Boston's Logan airport. In front of me is an All-American family of five, Mom, Dad, and three young children, obviously headed somewhere hot and sunny. They have the usual assortment of backpacks and carry-on bags.

When they get through the metal detector, they're told that Mom and Dad had been pre-designated for the more intensive search, where they wand-scan you and go through your bags. This search is a classic example of what Bruce Schneier calls Security Theater, since it looks impressive but doesn't do much good. The reason it doesn't do much good is that it's easy to tell in advance whether you're going to be searched. At one major airport, for example, the check-in agent writes a large red "S" on your boarding pass if you're designated for this search; you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know what this means. So only clueless bad guys will be searched, and groups of bad guys will be able to transfer any contraband into the bags of group members who won't be searched, with plenty of time after the security checkpoint to redistribute it as desired.

But back to my story. Mom and Dad have been designated for search, and the kids have not. So the security screener points to the family's pile of bags and asks which of the bags belong to Mom and Dad, because those are the ones that he is going to search. That's right: he asks the suspected bad guys (and they must be suspected, otherwise why search them) which of their bags they would like to have searched. Mom is stunned, wondering if the screener can possibly be asking what she thinks he's asking. I can see her scheming, wondering whether to answer honestly and have some stranger paw through her purse, or to point instead to little Johnny's bag of toys.

Eventually she answers, probably honestly, and the screener makes a great show of diligence in his search. Security theater, indeed.
Do on the ground realities such as the anecdote related here give any of these measures chewer supporters pause at all?
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post #25 of 248
11/19/10 at 2:14am
There's a lot of theater in it. Lots of pulling over guys who are like 70 year old WASPS, just so they can call the shit "random."

Is there any way to get a show of hands here to see how many of you guys actually, y'know, fly? I'm on roughly 4-6 flights per month. And I obviously hate the idea of the TSA snickering over my flabby naked form and grower-not-a-shower peepee. But you know what I would hate worse? Getting blown the fuck up on an airplane.

If (IF...if) I could be assured these measures would in fact substantially increase the safety of every flight, I'd have no issue here.

We need FrankCobretti up in this thread, stat.
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post #26 of 248
11/19/10 at 2:20am
I probably only fly about 4-5 times a year. I don't see how that would magically invalidate my opinion, though.
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post #27 of 248
11/19/10 at 2:26am
Your opinion is perfectly valid. I suspect there are people wringing hands who never fly anyway. I think you can agree with me that flying gives you a different insight into something that could potentially save lives, or even just reduce the stress levels of thousands of people PER HOUR, and has merit worth examining beyond whipping out the Constitution and crying to the heavens.

But I also threw a couple "if"s in my post as to whether this will be an effective safety measure.
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post #28 of 248
11/19/10 at 2:33am
I fly all the time. I also take the train all the time. I'm kind of failing to understand why so many people are fine with having to take off your shoes and get to second base with a TSA employee in the name of safety. It's just a classic example of Bush era "if we give up x civil liberty, we'll be safe from terra" thinking.

Terrorists target trains all the time, almost none of the security measures currently enforced in airports are enforced in any way in train stations, and yet people here and in the country in general just uncritically absorb the idea that these measures are justified and necessary.
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post #29 of 248
11/19/10 at 2:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Your opinion is perfectly valid. I suspect there are people wringing hands who never fly anyway. I think you can agree with me that flying gives you a different insight into something that could potentially save lives, or even just reduce the stress levels of thousands of people PER HOUR, and has merit worth examining beyond whipping out the Constitution and crying to the heavens.

But I also threw a couple "if"s in my post as to whether this will be an effective safety measure.
Sorry... I didn't mean to imply that YOU were specifically one to try to invalidate less than frequent fliers. There ARE those that are making those claims, however, and I should have clarified that in my post.

Also, I'm somebody that has always flown in a post 9/11 world... so I don't even remember flying before advanced security procedures. Every time they ramp it up, I usually just shrug and go along with it.

In this case, I am a little concerned with the number of google news hits from concerned pilot and medical organizations with regards to these machines.

As for me? Like I said earlier, gimme that intensive pat down. Closest I'll ever get to the mile-high club as far as I'm concerned.
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post #30 of 248
11/19/10 at 2:41am
I wonder if that nudie scanner technology will progress to a point where someone could have a handheld wand version. That would create a bit of an uproar.

The only thing I mind about airport checkpoints is the attitude of the beaten down TSA security guards, as they seem to hate everyone. I know its a tough job, but on many occasions I've seen them get verbally abusive with undeserving passengers.
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post #31 of 248
11/19/10 at 2:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunwukong View Post
Wait, what -- when did they get removed?

I remember guards with SMGs in DFW back in 2000. I'm certainly travelling in the US much less now, though ...
Could it have been 2001 when you saw the guards? All fifty state Governors, at the President's request, activated their National Guard personnel to show an armed presence at the airports after 9/11 in order to convince people that flying was safe.

That activation was "security theater" at its best. I had just transitioned from the active duty (i.e., federal) military to the Guard and I recall our orders stated on paper that the activation was to be for 178 days. Because the state employee Guardsmen would have been eligible for federal veteran's benefits if the mission had run for a full six months. This was before the invasion of Afghanistan, when the Army's yearlong tours of duty would guarantee those benefits for everyone who deployed overseas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KConan View Post
The only thing I mind about airport checkpoints is the attitude of the beaten down TSA security guards, as they seem to hate everyone. I know its a tough job, but on many occasions I've seen them get verbally abusive with undeserving passengers.
The TSA personnel I've interacted with when flying have seemed professional enough. I can only imagine that volume of shit they have to take from anxious tourists. Airports were miserable places long before the invention of the TSA.
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post #32 of 248
11/19/10 at 2:43am
I fly quite a lot. Been flying to somewhere different in Europe every week this past month. They don't make us use it here, but I do fly to the US a lot since me familia lives there. TSA doesn't bother me too much. But I think it's bullshit, and would rather not have it. But I'm not going to fight it. And I don't actually fear being blown up on a plane anymore than I'm afraid I'll be killed in a car crash. I'm going to Tel Aviv week after next. I'm sure they'll be using it there. That's sure as hell not the place to protest. Going to Amsterdam this Sunday! Wonder what I'll do.
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post #33 of 248
11/19/10 at 2:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabster View Post
Going to Amsterdam this Sunday! Wonder what I'll do.
Condoms filled with weed up your ass. Safe travels.
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post #34 of 248
11/19/10 at 3:06am
Nah, I'm going for there for work. But I know what you'll be doing. You'll be here. As usual. Kinda sad.
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post #35 of 248
11/19/10 at 3:12am
T'fuck did I do to you?
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post #36 of 248
11/19/10 at 3:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabster View Post
Nah, I'm going for there for work. But I know what you'll be doing. You'll be here. As usual. Kinda sad.
What the hell, dude?
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post #37 of 248
11/19/10 at 3:15am
Exhibitionists of the world are rejoicing.
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post #38 of 248
11/19/10 at 3:18am
Of all the things that annoy the shit out of me about flying, a potential groping by a surly TSA agent is way down the list. I'm picking my battles on this one; there are so many more egregious invasions of privacy out there worth getting upset over than this.
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post #39 of 248
11/19/10 at 3:24am
Quote:
Airports were miserable places long before the invention of the TSA.
They weren't perfect but were nowhere near as miserable as they are now in terms of expense, hassle, delays, and queues/lines. All of which contribute to the shitty moods of everyone involved.
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post #40 of 248
11/19/10 at 3:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Melton View Post
What the hell, dude?
I can't tell if it was a kneejerk response to misinterpreting my genuinely friendly travel advice, or a cheap shot at my embarrassingly large post count*. But Nabster's last 150 posts are almost exclusively about videogames, Batman 3, hating America and smoking weed. Not sure where or how I warranted the insult. Anyway, have a good trip, sorry if something I said rubbed you the wrong way somehow.

*You do realize with the advent of smart phones, me being "here as usual" is me being literally anywhere, right? I've posted on these boards from toilets, hotel rooms, bars, airports, airPLANES, work. I'm not locked in the basement or something. The future!
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post #41 of 248
11/19/10 at 3:41am
From the toilet is my personal favorite.
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post #42 of 248
11/19/10 at 3:57am
Thats where this message comes from.

It's kinda awesome to be bitching about TSA agents groping me while I've got shit steaming out of me.
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post #43 of 248
11/19/10 at 6:25am
It's a pointless, useless, for-show security measure. You know what terrorists do in reaction to stuff like this? They just choose somewhere else to blow up, or work out a different method. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people get treated like criminals because they want to travel.

It's kind of astonishing that the more liberal voices are fine with this here and the conservative guys are outraged. There's got to be a better way to protect against terrorism than humiliating the poor folk who just want to get across the country to see their families/go to Disneyland/whatever. And yeah, I'm sure you guys are cool with people looking at you naked/groping you, but why should anyone else be? It's totally a case of "if you've got nothing to hide it shouldn't worry you", which is the exact same justification used for all sorts of nasty shit that's been done over the past ten years.
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post #44 of 248
11/19/10 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
There's got to be a better way to protect against terrorism than humiliating the poor folk who just want to get across the country to see their families/go to Disneyland/whatever.
From the parking lot to the airport lounge in 25 minutes max. Israelis laugh at the new TSA "security" magic show. And they're right.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-little-bother

Quote:
"We have a saying in Hebrew that it's much easier to look for a lost key under the light, than to look for the key where you actually lost it, because it's dark over there. That's exactly how (North American airport security officials) act,"
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post #45 of 248
11/19/10 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
It's a pointless, useless, for-show security measure. You know what terrorists do in reaction to stuff like this? They just choose somewhere else to blow up, or work out a different method. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people get treated like criminals because they want to travel.

It's kind of astonishing that the more liberal voices are fine with this here and the conservative guys are outraged. There's got to be a better way to protect against terrorism than humiliating the poor folk who just want to get across the country to see their families/go to Disneyland/whatever. And yeah, I'm sure you guys are cool with people looking at you naked/groping you, but why should anyone else be? It's totally a case of "if you've got nothing to hide it shouldn't worry you", which is the exact same justification used for all sorts of nasty shit that's been done over the past ten years.
This, all of it.

Quote:
You know what terrorists do in reaction to stuff like this?
Laugh their asses off as we line up miserably for our dose of anti-terrorism radiation from undertested machines we overpaid for.
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post #46 of 248
11/19/10 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KConan View Post
The only thing I mind about airport checkpoints is the attitude of the beaten down TSA security guards, as they seem to hate everyone. I know its a tough job, but on many occasions I've seen them get verbally abusive with undeserving passengers.
They should get paid for and/or get shorter hours, doesn't make them less of an asshole. I've sat in too many coffee shops in airports and heard these people being total pricks and oversharing about their jobs(totally anecdotal).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
*You do realize with the advent of smart phones, me being "here as usual" is me being literally anywhere, right? I've posted on these boards from toilets, hotel rooms, bars, airports, airPLANES, work. I'm not locked in the basement or something. The future!
Mentioned before, but I love how you start off with toilets.

My primary annoyance with this? It's not effective, at least not for the money being spent on it.
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post #47 of 248
11/19/10 at 9:46am
That is an excellent article that Doc Phibes posted. Thanks for sharing it.
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post #48 of 248
11/19/10 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
It's kind of astonishing that the more liberal voices are fine with this here and the conservative guys are outraged.
Because usually it's straight white people who are being inconvenienced. Where's all this talk about personal liberty when it comes to letting a woman choose or marrying who you love regardless of gender? Oh, but if Mom and Dad Whitebread and the little ones get slowed down on their trip to Disney, well, this just won't stand!
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post #49 of 248
11/19/10 at 9:58am
That makes no sense. I mean, it explains the conservative outrage if you take it as read that this only affects the white majority, but not you guys at the other end of the spectrum being cool with it. This type of shit is wrong, whether it's blacks, whites, Asians, Jews or Klingons who are being subjected to it. And it IS all of those groups being affected by this stuff. Well, maybe not the last one.

And you know what? If one of these guys tried to frisk my three year-old son, I would go APESHIT. Humiliating a child to ensure good PR in the war on terror just beggars belief.
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post #50 of 248
11/19/10 at 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post
That makes no sense. I mean, it explains the conservative outrage if you take it as read that this only affects the white majority, but not you guys at the other end of the spectrum being cool with it.
The thread is murkier than that. There are a handful of progressives here actually arguing a consistent position here, i.e. the ones who don't seem to let the issue of airport security move them to fits of irrational rage.
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