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White Whine.

post #1 of 30
12/4/10 at 9:19am
Thread Starter 
Exactly how good do we have it right now?

Read on to find out.
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post #2 of 30
12/4/10 at 11:41am
Pretty funny, actually.

The "cold food and stench" on the cruise was perfect being placed above the 200,000 dead in Haiti.
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post #3 of 30
12/8/10 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Pretty funny, actually.

The "cold food and stench" on the cruise was perfect being placed above the 200,000 dead in Haiti.
Yeah, that one was the best. The picture sells it!
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post #4 of 30
12/8/10 at 10:32am
This use of 'white' in this way never fails to get on my nerves. But anyway, see how far you can make it into this article before declaring this woman to be the worst person in the world:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...fford-one.html
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post #5 of 30
12/8/10 at 10:49am
Hahahaha "Middle class". I want to piss in this woman's Harrods facecream.
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post #6 of 30
12/8/10 at 10:52am
Thread Starter 
Come on Paul, it's just shorthand. You can't possibly be seeing something sinister behind it.
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post #7 of 30
12/8/10 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
"Oh my god I can't afford having three houses!" /faint

Although there is something to be said about losing the comforts you've become accustomed to, please lady, get some perspective!
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post #8 of 30
12/8/10 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
Come on Paul, it's just shorthand. You can't possibly be seeing something sinister behind it.
You mean the 'white' thing? I don't think it's sinister, I just don't really like it. I've got no problem with people taking the piss out of the relatively privileged and how trivial their dramas can be. But this insistence on racialising a class thing is kind of unnecessary and unhelpful, and I think actually implicitly reenforces the supposed racial status quo that it's trying to mock. I mean, my non-white friends are as 'white' as the white ones.
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post #9 of 30
12/8/10 at 11:50am
Well, it's true. If we want to end centuries-old white privilege, we have to point out where it still exists--and it's everywhere. I'm fully aware that if not for my white ethnicity, I probably wouldn't be able to say I'm going to grad school and post on CHUD. That goes back to my German ancestors who didn't have to live on reservations or live under slavery.
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post #10 of 30
12/8/10 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
You mean the 'white' thing? I don't think it's sinister, I just don't really like it. I've got no problem with people taking the piss out of the relatively privileged and how trivial their dramas can be. But this insistence on racialising a class thing is kind of unnecessary and unhelpful, and I think actually implicitly reenforces the supposed racial status quo that it's trying to mock. I mean, my non-white friends are as 'white' as the white ones.
It's hard to disagree with this...but I don't know that there's a better way to express that disdainful, privileged cluelessness in shorthand. Granted, there are plenty of agressively ignorant non-caucasian folks out there who think that an increase in capital gains tax is an *actual* problem instead of an inconvenience for themselves...but who they're acting like is rich white men.
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post #11 of 30
12/8/10 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff M View Post
It's hard to disagree with this...but I don't know that there's a better way to express that disdainful, privileged cluelessness in shorthand.
I propose: "middle classholes".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty Underhill View Post
Well, it's true. If we want to end centuries-old white privilege, we have to point out where it still exists--and it's everywhere. I'm fully aware that if not for my white ethnicity, I probably wouldn't be able to say I'm going to grad school and post on CHUD. That goes back to my German ancestors who didn't have to live on reservations or live under slavery.
But there's nothing specifically racial about any of this stuff, it's class stereotypes all the way. Framing it in terms of race doesn't illuminate anything, it just adds an undertone of vaguely condescending white guilt.
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post #12 of 30
12/8/10 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
I propose: "middle classholes".
High marks for moderately crude wordplay and directness. All it lacks is some sort of allusion to the fact that the offenders are in the *upper* range of middle-classdom...halfway to being solidly in "rich prick" territory. Something taint-related, perhaps?
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post #13 of 30
12/8/10 at 12:59pm
Alternate term: "bourgeoissholes"
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post #14 of 30
12/8/10 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
But there's nothing specifically racial about any of this stuff, it's class stereotypes all the way. Framing it in terms of race doesn't illuminate anything, it just adds an undertone of vaguely condescending white guilt.
Not really. It's just pointing things out that are beyond a lot of people's daily perceptions. My local TV station, for example, hardly ever mentions the nearby Indian reservations except for negative coverage. It's a racist situation because there is no communication/advocacy on behalf of/from the reservation. At the same time, the station isn't racist for only covering what's blatantly obvious. It's going to talk about what impacts its consumers, namely the ones who are able to speak out the most.

However, the fact that the disparity exists IS based on historical racism, and talking about it will bring up racial themes. If we're going to end race-based injustice, we need to unveil just how the past still impacts economic class. That's why complaining about expensive baubles is a good example of white privilege; it's classic cultural self-absorption.
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post #15 of 30
12/8/10 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
You mean the 'white' thing? I don't think it's sinister, I just don't really like it. I've got no problem with people taking the piss out of the relatively privileged and how trivial their dramas can be. But this insistence on racialising a class thing is kind of unnecessary and unhelpful, and I think actually implicitly reenforces the supposed racial status quo that it's trying to mock. I mean, my non-white friends are as 'white' as the white ones.
The "white" mention in the title reinforces the clueless and unrecognized privilege motif the website is going after. If you're white, you're more likely to be better off in a myriad of different ways, statistically. What's so hard to get here?
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post #16 of 30
12/8/10 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali View Post
The "white" mention in the title reinforces the clueless and unrecognized privilege motif the website is going after. If you're white, you're more likely to be better off in a myriad of different ways, statistically. What's so hard to get here?
I think I'm right there with Paul when I wish that the conversation was more about class, and the power and privilege automatically associated with that class, than about being white. Being one of the landed gentry has historically been a pretty pale group, of course, but if we could get off of the generally self-destructive path of grouping people by race instead of by their relative power to affect policy, we'd be better off.

Whitey's got some pull with the Man, though. True enough. And there's no one more ridiculous than a suburban white dude complaining about a cruise ship.
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post #17 of 30
12/8/10 at 3:12pm
If you're white, you get advantages you wouldn't if you were a minority. There's a ton of studies showing this. Like how blacks are less likely to be hired than ex felon whites. Or how sentencing discriminates based on race. Etc, etc. I'm not trying to start a race war here or something, but if that's something you get sore about people mentioning, then that comes off as willful ignorance.
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post #18 of 30
12/8/10 at 3:14pm
The problem with the alternative titles is less that they're losing the "white" part than the "whine". "Asshole" is a negative term, but assholes don't necessarily feel sorry for themselves for really stupid or myopic reasons, which is kind of the site's raison d'etre.

In short, Paul, quit yer whinin'.
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post #19 of 30
12/8/10 at 3:49pm
I bet Paul is white. The C stands for Caucasian.
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post #20 of 30
12/8/10 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali View Post
If you're white, you get advantages you wouldn't if you were a minority. There's a ton of studies showing this. Like how blacks are less likely to be hired than ex felon whites. Or how sentencing discriminates based on race. Etc, etc. I'm not trying to start a race war here or something, but if that's something you get sore about people mentioning, then that comes off as willful ignorance.
I don't think anyone's arguing that point at all, Ali...or exhibiting willful ignorance. In his initial post, Paul said that he was irritated by it, but then provided a very pointed example of *exactly* the white whine that is being mocked.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go and meet with my builder. The butcher-block island countertop in my new house isn't level.

True story.
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post #21 of 30
12/8/10 at 4:27pm
I get that Paul would prefer to see this about class but we aren't at a point in society where the majority or even half of the wealthy/upper-middle class are a different colour.
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post #22 of 30
12/8/10 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
I get that Paul would prefer to see this about class but we aren't at a point in society where the majority or even half of the wealthy/upper-middle class are a different colour.
I'd like to see stats on that actually. But I'd venture a guess that most lower-class people are white as well. Most people in the US, in general, are white.
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post #23 of 30
12/8/10 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll View Post
I'd like to see stats on that actually. But I'd venture a guess that most lower-class people are white as well. Most people in the US, in general, are white.
Personal income by race.

Race break down in America.

It basically shows that while the ratio in the lower income brackets is about the same as the race ratio once you get to the +100,000 that ratio is no longer the same. The ratio of rich white people is indeed higher then rich minorities.
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post #24 of 30
12/8/10 at 5:14pm
I don't think anyone is disputing that most of the wealth in America is in the hands of white men. I just agree with Paul that using the word "white" interchangeably with "middle to upper class" is intellectually bankrupt, and kind of regressive. Plus, a lot of stuff on that site isn't about class, but culture. Honestly I think it's kind of racist to assume that only white people listen to NPR or classical music or watch TV shows online.

And a lot of the stuff isn't even whining, but that's more a comment on the poor quality control of the site than anything else.
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post #25 of 30
12/8/10 at 5:17pm
Still, there's a strangely unrecognized double standard with white progressives in general where hearts go out to poor people of other races, but if you're a redneck or a guido or a wigger you're beneath contempt and shit outta luck for any sympathy. I dunno if it has to do with disliking people who are perceived as ignorant and political opponents, or if there's some subconscious judging of these white people who somehow don't have what it takes to be as well off as you.
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post #26 of 30
12/8/10 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Personal income by race.

Race break down in America.

It basically shows that while the ratio in the lower income brackets is about the same as the race ratio once you get to the +100,000 that ratio is no longer the same. The ratio of rich white people is indeed higher then rich minorities.
I clicked on those links and I'm having trouble understanding your point. Here's a link showing that on average, African Americans make 22% less than Caucasians. Here's another that shows that blacks are four times more likely to go to jail than whites, among other disquieting statistics. And another that shows discriminatory views on blacks impacting African American employment and career growth.

There are negative consequences to being black. Some are able to overcome them, some do not, but these consequences are real. And the opposite is true, there are positive connotations to being white. It's something that a lot of people have a hard time recognizing, especially on the internet.
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post #27 of 30
12/8/10 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali View Post
I clicked on those links and I'm having trouble understanding your point. Here's a link showing that on average, African Americans make 22% less than Caucasians. Here's another that shows that blacks are four times more likely to go to jail than whites, among other disquieting statistics. And another that shows discriminatory views on blacks impacting African American employment and career growth.

There are negative consequences to being black. Some are able to overcome them, some do not, but these consequences are real. And the opposite is true, there are positive connotations to being white. It's something that a lot of people have a hard time recognizing, especially on the internet.
My point was that whites do in fact make up a higher ratio of the middle to upper classes then do minorities. You can see the significant change starting at about $50,000/year.

But, as your stats pointed out, money is not the only issue. There are significant societal woes that keep blacks/hispanics from being seen as middle class. Or, for that matter, being able to live/exist in middle class areas.

The issues brought up on that page are, in fact, majorly white issues. Doesn't mean there aren't black people who listen to NPR or that there aren't hispanics who complain about cruises. But to assume that class and race aren't tangentially related because you feel irritated by this page is ridiculous.
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post #28 of 30
12/8/10 at 7:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormin View Post
Still, there's a strangely unrecognized double standard with white progressives in general where hearts go out to poor people of other races, but if you're a redneck or a guido or a wigger you're beneath contempt and shit outta luck for any sympathy. I dunno if it has to do with disliking people who are perceived as ignorant and political opponents, or if there's some subconscious judging of these white people who somehow don't have what it takes to be as well off as you.
You're talking differences between how people act and what their economic station in life is.
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post #29 of 30
12/8/10 at 7:27pm
I was using the terms with which groups of people are stereotyped and looked upon by middle class people. Ultimately, it's all about money and standard of living.
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post #30 of 30
12/8/10 at 7:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormin View Post
I was using the terms with which groups of people are stereotyped and looked upon by middle class people. Ultimately, it's all about money and standard of living.
I guess I just don't buy that any of those terms when used in a derogatory way have anything to do with wealth or lack thereof. It's associated with behaviours, style of dress, politics etc. but not money.

My area of the world has more than it's share of rednecks but a large number of them have huge amounts of money. And a large number of them have children that I would term wiggers. And my understanding of guidos is that the term is associated with middle class Jerseyites with aspirations of wealth. I admit I could be wrong with that term, though.
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