Seinfeld

The only innocents are Jerry's dates. Except for the fact they agree to go out with Jerry in the first place.

I tend to agree, although maybe not so much with George, who I think genuinely does wrong by most people. Certainly he was a bit cavalier towards Susan's death. Still, I think quite often they are in the right, despite how petty these characters often are. Like Larry David's persona on Curb Your Enthusiam.

It's funny, it wasn't until how the show dealt with Susan's death that I realized these were pretty despicable people. I find I can relate to them. What does that say about me?

Except for the hit and run chick.

I thought they were a pretty ok group of people early in the show's run. They could be callous, but in a way that was relatable. As it neared its final season, they got a lot more broad and hideously callous. Though... considering the assholes they interacted with throughout the series, this makes a bit of sense.

As much as I love the show, I really "cantstandja!" George in the episode Jerry's trying to get a good deal on a car from Puddy. I really really hate him.

What allows me to continue loving the show is the fact that the show never apologized for their behavior and tried to soften them up. Got me good and primed for Curb.

The show took a complete nose dive after Larry David left as one of the central creative forces. Consequently even the characters themselves seemed to deteriorate after that; not nearly as interesting or funny as in the early years of Seinfeld.

I can't really agree with it being a "nosedive." Especially the episodes that Dave Mandel wrote, which includes "The Bizarro Jerry" one of my favorites of the series.

The last two seasons are a lot more broad Remember those awful Mandelbaum episode with a so-old-it's-uncomfortable Lloyd Bridges?

Plus, the final season especially, the core group seems to actively despise each other, with the witty back-and-forth replaced with pure bile at times.

That really reminds me of Martin Short's guest appearance on AD in a couple of ways.

I think I like Short's performance better than most around here, but both roles are WAY below the standards for each show. At least Short's performance wasn't in danger of being upstaged by his death rattle. Bridges seems so tired that it makes me queasy.

In Elaine's defense, George was pretty obnoxious with that thing on.

That episode was around the middle of the show's run, right?

I'd agree that the last two seasons became more broad, almost cartoon like, but it had a lot of fun. Muffin tops. Kramer being driven mad by a giant red chicken. Jerk Store! Frogger! Jerry being a date rapist to play with toys!

People give the last two seasons shit, but they're awesome.

Festivus!

Nuff said.

I kind of loved that. They knew they were coming to an end, so they just sort of said "fuck it" and made everyone hate each other. There's one episode where Elaine starts to set up a premise (believe it was George dating a girl who looks like Jerry) and Jerry goes "Really?" and she just sort of shrugs and goes "I don't know. I don't care."

I wouldn't say I love all the seasons equally, and I wouldn't say that they were tonally consistent, but I definitely debate the idea that there was a significant dip in quality.

It wasn't a significant dip in quality. It was just different, but no less hilarious.

Has there ever been a half hour of comedy better than "The Contest"? Okay, a little heavy on the hyperbole but definitely a top 10 contender.

I thought there some in the 8th and 9th season (some I already mentioned) that did a really good job of handling all four characters having their own story that often interconnected with other character's stories, instead of say Kramer just popping in or teaming two characters together for no reason. Just really well handled story telling, even if absurd.

I honestly never thought the show took a nosedive... until the finale. What a shitty way for such a great show to go out. Sure it had "all your favorite characters!", but that was also the main problem with it.

And of course we have Larry David to thank(?) for the Finale.

Off topic, but seriously?! I always thought Short's appearance on AD was one of the funniest things they did.

That you are exactly the kind of person who pushes children out of the way to flee to safety when a small chip pan fire starts at a kids birthday party

One thing I have noticed on rewatching is that nearly 95% of the female characters be it dates or secretary or what have you were redheads.

Mismatched pairings be damned, I think there was a significant opportunity lost with Puddy and J. Peterman only meeting in the finale (in a deleted scene, no less).

I second this motion.

Puddy was the only good part of the finale, but he was the highlight of the show for me at the end anyhow so I'm biased.

The show got crazy broad in the final 2 seasons ('The Butter Shave' being the worst example) and kinda bad. I'm glad they finally ended it when they did, though the finale clip show was awful. That said, I did enjoy the mini-reunion on last season's CURB (though it wasn't as front and center as interviews with everyone involved made it out to be).

I'd put The Opposite right up there with The Contest.

And I'd heard or read somewhere that Seinfeld and David went by the mantra "No growth, no hugs." They didn't want the characters to learn or become better, and they didn't want forced/feel-good resolutions.

Once I heard that - and once I figured out you weren't really supposed to like George (find him entertaining or funny, yes - likeable, no) - I quickly came to love the show.

There was an episode in the last season, "The Betrayal" that was in reverse-chronological order. Not only was it a fun episode, but it had a few poignant scenes (Susan cameo, first time Jerry and Kramer meet), and all in all it felt like a more appropriate series finale.

The fact that Spock's death affected George more than Susan's ("It was a hell of a thing when Spock died.") cements my love for this show forever.

Except for that one who damaged Jerry's neighbor's car and didn't leave a note.

Great show from beginning to end, until the last ep. I felt sort of vindicated by CYE when all of the cast members alluded to how bad the finale was.

I never got that they were losers for the many years I watched the show. Maybe that just shows how screwed up I was raised, but it's still hard to think of just how the main characters are so bad. I just assumed that these people were cool since they were so funny.

Actually, I think I know what it is. As long as someone is funny or interesting to me, I don't care if their behavior is bad.

I don't know if Jerry could be called a loser; he was able to date a lot of pretty hot women and seemed to be making good money. Elaine gets loser status more by association, I think. I don't thinking calling George a loser is any stretch, and Kramer is one, though it's disguised behind the loony.

The characters are "bad" because they were all horribly self-involved, immature jerks. Funny ones, to be sure, and entertaining to watch. But I don't think I'd like to actually spend time with any of them.

In the ep where the pool guy from the gym is trying to befriend Jerry, but nearly drowns when Newman does a cannonball on him, Jerry does the best grimace/icky-face when Elaine asks why he didn't perform mouth-to-mouth.

It probably doesn't speak well of me, but I can completely identify with his reaction.

Like Jerry said to George, "I'm like you . . . only successful."

And Debra Messing who at the end during Mickey's wedding complains about the Jews and the Blacks.

Both redheads.

You know...im totally in the minority here with this...but I seriously dont understand what is so funny/good about Seinfeld. I've tried to watch it a few times and jut sat there wondering why I was wasting the time. It's not funny at all to me.

No TV for you!

How old are you?

I am kind of burned out on it now (watched it every day, multiple times a day, for like four years back in High School), and some of the episodes are definitely not as good as others.. but there are some that are just side splittingly funny IMHO. I was disappointed with the final episode at the time, but in retrospect I like that the show took the effort after nine seasons of nastiness to stick the cast in Massachusetts and make the point that Kramer, George, Jerry and Elaine really were that mean spirited, even the characters themselves always thought they were in the right. It's like Seinfeld was saying "OK, you've had some laughs, but try to remember that if you act that way your comeuppance will come eventually"

BTW, the 'George' and 'Kramer' characters in particular are absolutely masterfully realized, as far as comedic acting goes

PS I've seen Jason Alexander on REAL TIME with Bill Maher before, and he's a very astute individual. Combined with his creepy turn in PRETTY WOMAN, I think he has the chops for dramatic acting should he want to give it a try

I had the same initial reaction to this show. I hated it so much, I caught only one episode during its initial run.

Since then, I've realized this is the most unique and brilliant show in the history of modern tv. I've now seen them all via syndication so I have no concept of what season any episode came from. To me, there are different tones in some episodes, but there are really no bad episodes to me except maybe the very first 3.

I even like the finale because it hammers home to those who don't get it that the characters are all douches. And this is why it takes time to get this show. When watching a sitcom, you want to root for the characters or at least laugh at their buffonery, but when you're exposed to a guy who'll pretend to be handicapped just to have access to a handicap bathroom, you immediately backlash against the show thinking they want you to root for this behavior. You're unable to enjoy the loony and you're mortified by the antics of these people.

Only after you get that you're supposed to laugh AT them, and not with them like your typical sitcom do you start to enjoy it.

I liked the finale for the very last scene, with the button discussion. Nice full circle.

Seinfeld really is the sitcom counterpart to The Sopranos, in that they made their genre safe for antiheroes and douchey leads. Without one, you don't get The Shield/Mad Men/Dexter/Breaking Bad, and without the other you don't get Curb/Always Sunny/Arrested Development/The Office.

They also take a similarly cynical view of human nature, dwelling on all the ways its characters fail to change and the horrible collateral damage their selfishness accrues.

I'm sure others have noticed the similarities before, but it just occurred to me.

This. Once I understood the premise/philosophy of the show, I started finding it funny.

I'm 26

That's pretty much how I feel about the later seasons as well. I can definitely understood disappointment in the show going into more slapstick territory, but it remained as sharply written as ever. The backwards episode was genius.

It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is a nice modern counterpart to Seinfeld. If you guys liked Seinfeld, you should check it out.