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DC Generations, Legacies, and Branding

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I've noticed a bothersome trend that has been developing at DC these last few years: brand duplication. The 1st-tier characters are seeing double, as there are now multiple Green Lanterns, Flashes, and Batmans. Many noticed this after the return of Barry Allen as the Flash, as it was pointed out that Wally and Barry were not different enough to justify both characters being named the Flash.

Not just named the Flash, but wearing almost identical outfits. This was acceptable with Green Lantern because there had already been a corps, and great pains were taken to differentiate between Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner, John Stewart and Kyle Rayner. With the return of Bruce Wayne, however, I fear for Dick Grayson's character. For so long he stood as a counterpart to Batman, and later struck out on his own as a unique character. With Tim Drake having taken the role of Red Robin, I feel like Nightwing's function in the DCU is obsolete, and what does that mean for the future?

That's the big question here: the why, and the ramifications. DC has always been about Generations, as their heroes were known for their sidekicks. Later those sidekicks grew up and either struck out on their own, or took over their mentor's roles (when the mentor either retired or died). The 1980s and '90s were a time when the second generation heroes went through major name and identity changes: following Nightwing's lead, Wondergirl became Troia, Aqualad became Tempest, and Speedy became Arsenal. Emphasis was placed on them being unique, in both costume and name.

On the Legacy front, Wally West not only took over as the Flash, but Green Lantern was reduced to one character. Not only was the entire Corps destroyed, but Guy Gardner became Warrior and John Stewart became a Darkstar (and Hal Jordan became the Spectre). When Azrael became the new Batman, there was only one Batman until Bruce returned to take back the title. Batman's "sidekicks", as well, were not characterized by branding: Nightwing, Oracle, Hunter, Anarky, Spoiler, Azrael. Only Robin kept the familiar name, the rest were original creations. Sure the quality could be argued...

This all changed around the introduction of Cassandra Cain as Batgirl in 1999. Now this easily could have been dismissed at the time, as it had been years since a Batgirl character had existed. It was followed in 2001, however, with the resurrection of Oliver Queen and the subsequent decision to keep both him and Connor Hawke named Green Arrow. Followed by Arsenal's renaming as Red Arrow in 2006, Green Arrow now had a multi-colored brand.

Multiple characters with the same name, differentiated only by slight tweaks in color and/or symbol. Obviously this is something Marvel has suffered from in the past (War Machine and Thunderstrike come to mind), but at least there have been attempts to make their characters stand out. DC isn't even trying anymore.

Generations and Legacies are cool, as it's expected that a Kid Flash or Robin will one day step up and take their mentor's role. The problem, however, is that the 2nd Generation (Dick Grayson, Wally West, Roy Harper, Connor Hawke, Kyle Rayner) was briefly given a chance at promotion, but now feel relegated to a Michael Scott/Jim Halpert co-manager situation, and we all know how that turned out. With the 3rd generation slot already filled (Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Speedy) and in some cases a 4th generation (Damian Wayne as Robin, forcing Tim Drake into the 2nd generation slot), the 2nd generation characters are stuck without being allowed to progress, and yet any change at this point will feel like a regression.

If Wally West were to start going by the name FastGuy!, no one would take him seriously. If Dick Grayson becomes Nightwing, how can he compete with Red Robin? DC has written itself into a corner, possibly because they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. "Why not have multiple versions? We'll please everyone!" In the long run, however, this is bad storytelling.
post #2 of 24
Thread Starter 
When I speak of regression, I'd like to point out two characters specifically: Donna Troy and Roy Harper. During the "One Year Later" storyline, Donna Troy became Wonder Woman briefly. Obviously her tenure as the character was planned to be brief in order to highlight the necessity of Diana Prince in the role. In the years since, however, Donna has floundered from one Titans team to a Titans-Lite Justice League (including Mon-El wearing a Superman symbol), showing how much she lacks definition.

Meanwhile Roy Harper has become Arsenal again, but having not read "The Rise and Fall of Arsenal" I can only comment on what I've heard about it: shit, pure and utter shit. The brutal killing of his daughter and X-TREME nature of his new robotic arm only highlight how ill-advised it is to allow these characters to grow up past college age.

By contrast, Marvel kept Bucky as Captain America even when Steve Rogers returned, and Steve became Super Soldier. In the wake of Dark Avengers, Daken is no longer a duplicate Wolverine.

Now I'm not defending or detracting the quality of any of these storylines: I love Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns, but I feel like their narrative decisions are designed to be short-term but appear to be lasting long-term. In five years when they both move on to other projects, Wally West and Dick Grayson will either be killed off or regressed One More Day-style to their former selves.
post #3 of 24
You have a fair point with the Flash thing, but I feel like there's been a lot of effort put in to differentiating between the Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson Batman personae that it shouldn't be a huge problem. You're right, he probably WILL go back to being Nightwing at some point (likely as soon as Morrison stops writing Batman, since that seems to be par for the course with how companies treat him), but both Batmen are serving different roles in the universe at the moment.

Though, really, I only read Morrison-written Batman books anyway, so for all I know the other writers are fucking it up as we speak.
post #4 of 24
Allen and West are plenty different. West is actually the better Flash, as he's had to deal with the death of a replacement father figure and the battle to escape his shadow.

Allen is a cop with an analytical mind who approaches his superheroics as a scientist first before applying any fisticuffs. West is more of a traditional superhero, who is actually faster than Allen.

Plus, West has the whole family man angle while Allen just has Iris.

In relation to Batman, that line is become more of an international affair with Dick Grayson handling Gotham and Bruce tackling the rest of the world.
post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 
What bothers me most is the branding aspect of it. I feel like instead of creating fresh, unique characters (or putting a new spin on an old character), DC is shoving characters into easily identifiable roles:

Spoiler is now Batgirl, Tim Drake is Red Robin, and there's even a new Batwoman. There are currently two Batmen, two Robins, and two Batfemales. Compare that to the 1990s when each sidekick had a unique name, costume and role, to the point where Oracle and Huntress branched out away from the Batman brand.

I feel like creativity and long-term goals are being trumped in favor or short-term business decisions.
post #6 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderson View Post
Allen and West are plenty different. West is actually the better Flash, as he's had to deal with the death of a replacement father figure and the battle to escape his shadow.

Allen is a cop with an analytical mind who approaches his superheroics as a scientist first before applying any fisticuffs. West is more of a traditional superhero, who is actually faster than Allen.

Plus, West has the whole family man angle while Allen just has Iris.

In relation to Batman, that line is become more of an international affair with Dick Grayson handling Gotham and Bruce tackling the rest of the world.
I know Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne are being written with different personalities and different roles. I know the same applies to Wally West and Barry Allen. I feel, however, that has more to do with good writers (Morrison and Johns) struggling with a business decision that was handed down to them.

The casual fan will not know the difference, they will simply see Batman and Flash. It's cheap, and damns the characters into not-quite roles.
post #7 of 24
The Bat Corps (if you will) is storyline motivated. Stephanie Brown is Batgirl now, so that Oracle has a viable replacement to train and we've got a character that probably won't kill people dressed up as a Bat fellow.

I love Cassandra Cain, but she always a bit unstable.

Tim Drake as Red Robin works in a similar way to Dick as Nightwing. It's giving the character a chance to find his legs outside of the comfort of Bruce.

Batwoman exists to have a token character for Greg Rucka to write.

Also, are you using the 1990s at DC as a creative milestone? If you are, then your argument's fucked in the first place.
post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
I know Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne are being written with different personalities and different roles. I know the same applies to Wally West and Barry Allen. I feel, however, that has more to do with good writers (Morrison and Johns) struggling with a business decision that was handed down to them.

The casual fan will not know the difference, they will simply see Batman and Flash. It's cheap, and damns the characters into not-quite roles.
Morrison is the one driving the storyline and it's his decision to have them both.

Johns wanted Allen back from the Word One. The mothballing of Wally comes out of Johns/Didio's desire to have focus put back on Allen's return.
post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
I'm not decreeing the 1990s as a milestone of quality at DC, quite the opposite. I'm simply pointing out that there was an acknowledgement at the time of the repetitive nature of the Generations characters, and the response was renaming and repackaging.

The 21st century, however, has DC playing up the brand. Not only are there multiple versions of different Brands (Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, Green Arrow), but there are multiple comic books. Doesn't it feel cheap to argue that Bruce is the International Batman and Dick is the Gotham City Batman, but then to have a comic (Batman: Dark Knight) specifically created to highlight Bruce's adventures in Gotham?
post #10 of 24
There's not really multiple version of Superman, there's similar family characters. Same goes for Batman. GL is the Corps. Flash (we've covered) and GA is just Ollie now.

If you haven't been keeping up with what Morrison's been doing lately, then it might make things difficult regarding Bats. The time split between Bruce and Dick isn't cheap. The change-up is driven by story.

It's different than a Thor / Thunderstrike scenario.
post #11 of 24
I've pretty much stopped reading superhero comics, so I assumed that Grayson handed back the cowl after Wayne came back. The two Batmen thing is kind of Interesting. Do people know that there are two or is everyone made to believe that it's all one guy?
post #12 of 24
Thread Starter 
Anderson, you are one tough nut to crack. I'll concede that strong stories are being told at the moment, but my concern is the long run. 2nd generation characters have either been killed off (Tempest), made obsolete (Troia), or tainted (Arsenal).

Dick Grayson was almost killed off during Infinite Crisis. With a stay of execution, the stories that followed were either horrible (Bruce Jones) or boring (Marv Wolfman). Becoming Batman is a natural step for Dick Grayson, but it's an end goal: where does he go from here?

The same applies to Wally West. Heroes that are married with children tend to suffer. If DC is intending for the West family to be the equivalent of the Fantastic Four then that may work, because that's the only comic book family that has stayed together and not been killed off. Well, there's the Baker family, but even Morrison played around with the cliche by having the family get murdered, and then retconning them back to life.
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
The same applies to Wally West. Heroes that are married with children tend to suffer. If DC is intending for the West family to be the equivalent of the Fantastic Four then that may work, because that's the only comic book family that has stayed together and not been killed off. Well, there's the Baker family, but even Morrison played around with the cliche by having the family get murdered, and then retconning them back to life.
Excuse my ignorance, but who are the Baker family?
post #14 of 24
Thread Starter 
Buddy Baker, Animal Man. Just about the only married with kids DC hero I can think of before Wally West.
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
Anderson, you are one tough nut to crack. I'll concede that strong stories are being told at the moment, but my concern is the long run. 2nd generation characters have either been killed off (Tempest), made obsolete (Troia), or tainted (Arsenal).

Dick Grayson was almost killed off during Infinite Crisis. With a stay of execution, the stories that followed were either horrible (Bruce Jones) or boring (Marv Wolfman). Becoming Batman is a natural step for Dick Grayson, but it's an end goal: where does he go from here?

The same applies to Wally West. Heroes that are married with children tend to suffer. If DC is intending for the West family to be the equivalent of the Fantastic Four then that may work, because that's the only comic book family that has stayed together and not been killed off. Well, there's the Baker family, but even Morrison played around with the cliche by having the family get murdered, and then retconning them back to life.
You reallly missed the point of that last storyarc in Morrison's Animal Man.

It's something I see in a lot of comics fans. The whole can't see the forest for the trees angle.

While I like heroes getting married, kids and moving on...it doesn't lend itself to periodical flow and the movement of what matters. Establishing a line for future generations.

Sure, the Jack Kirby in all of us says that the companies should make new heroes and books. It's just that is that really realistic? There is the business angle of establishing licensing and continually supporting the old favorites.

It's just that as long as story dictates character development and the results are paid off...why do you care?
post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
I feel like you're assuming a lot from a few throw away comments. I feel like I understand "Deux Ex Machina" just fine (Buddy meets his maker, Morrison explains how he could write Buddy into any horrible situation for the sake of drama, then feels sympathy for Buddy and writes his family back to life), but feel free to enlighten me.

My point is I'm tired of horrible things happening to my fun superheroes. Rape, murder, that's all unnecessary. Allowing a character like Dick Grayson to reach his full potential, replacing his mentor, only to bring the mentor back leaves Dick in the lurch.

Here's the deal: every single 2nd generation character that gets married and/or has kids eventually loses their loved ones. Arsenal, Tempest, Troia have all had a spouse and/or child die. Every hero that has been promoted (Kid Flash to Flash, Troia to Wonder Woman, Arsenal to Red Arrow, Nightwing to Batman) is eventually rendered obsolete by the return of their mentor, or is regressed back to a lesser role.

I worry that, during a moment of creative stagnance, good characters like Wally West and Dick Grayson will either be killed off, or have everything taken away from them in a bout to make them X-TREME.

Bear in mind that I'm aware this is the institution of comic books. I know that things are cyclical. I haven't spent money on superhero comic in years, I get everything from the library. It's not going to kill me if Dick and Wally are taken out of the spotlight or relegated to second tier places. Getting back to my original point, being out of the limelight actually allows these characters much more creative freedom (see Chuck Dixon's run on Nightwing, Johns' early run on Flash), so I would prefer them to take a step back as long as they have a unique identity and function in the DCU.
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
Buddy Baker, Animal Man. Just about the only married with kids DC hero I can think of before Wally West.
Gotcha. And I read that run too. "Baker" in and of itself is such an un-superheroey name without the "Buddy."
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
I feel like you're assuming a lot from a few throw away comments. I feel like I understand "Deux Ex Machina" just fine (Buddy meets his maker, Morrison explains how he could write Buddy into any horrible situation for the sake of drama, then feels sympathy for Buddy and writes his family back to life), but feel free to enlighten me.

My point is I'm tired of horrible things happening to my fun superheroes. Rape, murder, that's all unnecessary. Allowing a character like Dick Grayson to reach his full potential, replacing his mentor, only to bring the mentor back leaves Dick in the lurch.

Here's the deal: every single 2nd generation character that gets married and/or has kids eventually loses their loved ones. Arsenal, Tempest, Troia have all had a spouse and/or child die. Every hero that has been promoted (Kid Flash to Flash, Troia to Wonder Woman, Arsenal to Red Arrow, Nightwing to Batman) is eventually rendered obsolete by the return of their mentor, or is regressed back to a lesser role.

I worry that, during a moment of creative stagnance, good characters like Wally West and Dick Grayson will either be killed off, or have everything taken away from them in a bout to make them X-TREME.

Bear in mind that I'm aware this is the institution of comic books. I know that things are cyclical. I haven't spent money on superhero comic in years, I get everything from the library. It's not going to kill me if Dick and Wally are taken out of the spotlight or relegated to second tier places. Getting back to my original point, being out of the limelight actually allows these characters much more creative freedom (see Chuck Dixon's run on Nightwing, Johns' early run on Flash), so I would prefer them to take a step back as long as they have a unique identity and function in the DCU.
You're assuming that the shit happening to these characters is non story driven across the board.

There's a difference between THE DEATH OF SUPERMAN and Batman Inc. What your argument has been for the last 2 days is...shit ain't like how I remembered it. Therefore, it sucks.
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
We're just going to have to agree to disagree, Anderson. Where you see change, I see homogenization. Dick and Wally have spent the last 25 years being their own men, and now they're both Franchises.
post #20 of 24
You're making broad jumps. Dick and Wally have never really been broken away from their comic family umbrellas. Wolfman tried it with Nightwing, but no matter what...he keeps coming back to the fold.

The shake-up isn't what matters, it's the story and what you do with each character. Calling them franchises in a periodical sense is pretty dumb. That's what they are at heart. Getting mad at any DC or Marvel for being part of a larger franchise is dumber.
post #21 of 24
Thread Starter 
I'm hearing you, Anderson, and I respect what you're saying. I'm not so much angry as disappointed with the repetitive trend of names and costumes lately, but I can see it as a building block towards a better future for these characters. Wally and Dick had both been suffering in the creative department post-Infinite Crisis, so they definitely needing a stirring up.

Just don't let whoever wrote "The Rise and Fall of Arsenal" get a hold of either character.
post #22 of 24
The Rise and Fall of Arsenal is such a rare example of failure. I hate when people bring it up in conversation, because it's really rare to have something that bad happen.

That mini was a failure on so many levels that DC should be embarassed that it's still in print.
post #23 of 24
The "Franchising" is part of the whole POINT of Batman, Inc. Morrison's commenting on how "branding" has become a part of our culture. And it's possible that that's going to go badly for Bats.

I have to admit that, like Nicholas, I don't really give a crap whether this "paints the DCU into a corner" because I'm unlikely to keep reading the Bat-books once Morrison bails. (Though I must admit, Paul Cornell seems to be doing an incredible job following him on Batman & Robin.)

As usual, I think the problem here is tied into the static, corporate nature of comic book universes. When there's no one writer or editor overseeing the whole line, and when said line has to continue generating revenue forever, of course you're going to end up with a lot of storytelling cul-de-sacs and reboots and what have you. I don't know if that's better or worse than the idea of dropping continuity and having comics be standalones, but those are pretty much your only options. You're not going to see a fifty-year plan in which Bruce Wayne eventually ages and retires. You're not going to get organic growth. Especially not with fuckleheads like Johns refusing to let characters who should be dead STAY dead. For that you would need comic book universes to have a beginning, middle and ending like a proper story. But these aren't stories, they're brand extentions, with creative people as hired hands working an assembly line.

The closest you're ever going to get to the kind of thing fanboys want is little "families" of comics being overseen by a single, talented writer or editor, like Morrison's doing with Batman. But that will inevitably end and we'll be back to the vagaries of whatever the market seems to want eventually. And we still haven't gotten over the dumbass obsession with killing off characters for shock value, so...

Jackknife Johnny: Dick is staying on as the Batman of Gotham City. Bruce Wayne is currently the globe-trotting Batman, recruiting other heroes around the world.
post #24 of 24
I like the idea of Batman Inc. Having Batman be this type of cult leader gives me flashbacks to TDKR.
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