STEADY LEAK: WHAT THE MOVIE BUSINESS HAS DONE TO THE MOVIE SITES - Page 3

How many performances in film have you ever seen where you think they're BRILLIANT but it doesn't meet cultural/financial recognition -- whether it be box-office or Oscar Awards or whatever?

If I thought about it, I'm sure I could name a few (THE FOUNTAIN for one). But you're forgetting something: Platform and opportunity. Are you saying there aren't quality artists/entertainers who don't succeed? Or that there isn't successful crap out there?

Trying to launch a successful website or get a start in any entertainment field is not the same as already having a film released on the bigscreen. Those films have a much larger budget to guarantee exposure and awareness.

"If you build it, they will come" will only get you so far IMO. There's also luck and networking and salesmanship. It ain't as easy as you think. To separate the wheat from the chaff, you still need a threshing machine.

Not ALWAYS an artist ....

God, that's tough. Sure, an artist WANTS to be successful ... but an entertianer NEEDS to be successful.

Well, an artist NEEDS to be successful if he wants to be able to spend the majority of his working week making art and still make a living. I'm not about to abandon my family to live in a commune so I can paint and sculpt all day.

Sure, Henry Darger was an artist. Doesn't matter that no one saw his work until he died. But that doesn't mean that someone who does it and seeks to make a living from that skill is any less of an artist... IMO.

REALLY sorry for the derail. Off to make some art or create some content or something.

No. I'm not saying that. There are artists/entertainers who don't SUCCEED (if you take monetary gain or recognition as success, which I don't), and there is SUCCESSFUL "CRAP" (your words) out there if you take money-making and cultural recognition as success (which I don't).

The point is: who are you doing it for? If you say, "others" you will always be disappointed. If you say, "myself" you might occassionally be proud of what you produce.

I've deleted so many attempts at posting another response. All I come down to is this:

Entertainers will always scream: "I'm an artist!"

Artists will always scream: "I've failed. I want to be better."

What I need is a sugar momma so I can keep failing comfortably for the rest of my life.

Well then, you're not an artist.

Did you guys really need to discuss that here?

themykra: www.bullshitsurfaceshitthatneedsnodiscussion.com

I think a true artist would say something like "Here's what I did, I hope you like it", or maybe "Here's what I did, what do you think"? They are not all robots who say "Here's what I did, fuck you if you don't get it", or suffering who say "I failed. I hope to be better".

I'm not sure what this tangent has to do with the thread. Maybe people think Nick is suffering because awhile ago he announced the new site, and continues to tell us why it's not ready yet? Well, I don't. I see a guy who announced a new site and was excited about it, and then ran into some snags. I only see this because he told us. I see what he's doing as keeping us informed, while still trying to keep us excited about the new site.

Beside that, CHUD is already sucessful. I could care less when the new site actually debuts. I'm cool with it now.

FUCK -- maybe I didn't stay on the narrow course you people THINK I should have stayed on with the subject of this thread. I failed as an entertainer. But as an artist interested in the SUBJECT it spiraled into hoping to argument my point well.

I think Nick Nunziata and CHUD are trapped in a conundrum of ARTISTRY vs COMMERCIALISM -- an ongoing, never-ending battle. I hope they continue with the choice toward "ARTISTRY" over "COMMERCIALISM".

Lots of great comments here (before the derail about Artists that is )

Phil and Kate express my own view point best, except that....

I think the site content needs an Editorial hand. Isaac Asimov got his best ideas and wrote his best work in semi-collaboration with his editor John Campbell (ditto Heinlein etc). It would be great if Nick or Elizabeth or someone took a firm hand to say "hey Renn, great Tron review, but did you mean to say this, or did you mean this?". (Loved the Tron review as a whole but it could have used a nip n tuck here and there).

I like the Tag Team review format, but it requires someone to be a strong Moderator, and needs to be edited as well. Also, if the review is Spoiler heavy, say so at the top.

What I like most about CHUD is that I (and most other posters: see esp PK's post here vs other posts) can be silly at times and offer (what I hope is) serious analysis or commentary at other times. And that is reflected in the site's content as well.

Also, if you could figure out a way to link all the movies mentioned in the B Movie thread to Amazon I'm convinced you would be rich.

Cylon, from 10+ years of experience, there is no desire to have editorial oversight. Content. Free.

(and then ... why don't the masses follow?)

I was bummed when Devin left but I like Renn Brown. I'm coming to CHUD regularly for his opinion now. And opinion is what I want, not just news. Renn is a good film critic, too. His reviews are focused and insightful.

But I do like provocative content. I liked that Devin got up-in-arms about stuff and stirred up shit. He may have gone overboard but I hope that all the CHUD writers can keep that bold and intelligent spirit alive.

Don't worry. I will get fired up about something. I love to rant, and I love to debate. I fully intend on contributing some fire.

I just haven't found a windmill to tilt at editorially. But I will. It's my nature.

I think having opinions in news articles is an essential element of CHUD. I mean, you go to joblo.com or comingsoon.net if you just wanna know that Fast Five comes out April 29th, but you go to CHUD to read what those guys think about that. Wanting CHUD to be a mindless information service is definitely the wrong perception. This mag was always about personality and humor, without going all out AICN or cracked. I bet joblo is more successful nowadays with all that short news, little opinion and babes pics under every article, but that's just not in line with typical CHUD quality.

Also, one important thing. I know most people in here don't have any interest in that new site content wise because they're here for cinematic happenings under development (no shit), but see it like this: it's expected success seems necessary for CHUD. It has the potential to be so successful that it can keep the financially troubled CHUD alive for at least another decade. I think that's the plan, so while I myself have no interest in it, I definitely hope for Nick it becomes successful enough. Anyone wishing for interesting discussions about the next five Coen flicks and further Street Figher adaptations should hope the same.

There's one other thing, and I don't mean to insult anyone or be a dick, but you need some better writers.

This. Outside of that, handing out The Elements of Style wouldn't be a bad idea in some cases.

eh, while I agree that this isn't the 'height' of chuds writing star, everyone is really stepping up their game and I think are really getting to find their voices. (Renn/Elizabeth especially)

I think just giving them some time will yield very positive results

Why do I get the feeling that Matt's parents take care of his rent and student loan payments? No offense.
You started a pretty great Hobbit discussion!

Either you are suggesting that someone isn't an artist unless they succeed or you're saying that spending your life creating art doesn't make you an artist. Not sure which is more insulting.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Opinion articles are why I am here. The blending of news and opinion has been brought up before by critics. I was just looking at a middle ground. Keeping the news, allowing the commentary, just be more visually differentiated.

I want this site to last until I am old. Or Phil's age, which ever comes first.

Actually, I think the writing is generally very good. What the team could use is an overall editor for proofing and polishing. And that's not a knock on anyone who contributes to the front page or recurring columns. My guess is that there's very little time for getting a second (or third) set of eyes to carefully read through content and then revise it. I'm sure Nick and the crew are managing a shit-ton of stuff, and the need for getting something published outweighs the desire to hone each piece to perfection.

But again: I think the writing on the site is solid, and much better than many other sites out there.

Why you gotta swipe at me when Greg David and Jacob Singer's somehow-still-moving carcasses are shambling around this fucking place?

He called you young, dude. Or at least, not old.

Yes, and thank you. We are rough around the edges, but MOST of the time it's because our site is difficult to update and difficult to SEE while you are. And we rush a little because we try and give a lot of content to folks.

Sometimes we just suck at proofreading and being smart.

I've read a few gripes about the CHUD backend. Hopefully, along with all the shiny baubles and whatnot, the new CHUD will make it less hassle for you guys to give us all the delicious content.

so much easier.

I can't wait. The current one is maddening, haha.

Writing is like shouting into the void. Only occasionally does someone shout back.

Okay, this is going to come off like major ass-kissery, but I don't care.

Firstly, I really appreciate when Nick posts his opinions on the state of online movie journalism, for a couple reasons. One is that I don't know much about being a webmaster, or about the film industry in general. It kind of gives me a little peek into what's happening in the industry besides "Teh Dark Night came outWHYSOSERIOUS." The second reason is that it makes this site feel personal on a level that many websites, and I am not just talking about film coverage, fail to deliver on. This place is a true community, and not just that, it's a community devoted to the in-depth discussion and criticism of film, and you can't get much more hip than that. CHUD feels like MY website, and I don't even have to put any of the ridiculous and hair-pulling amount of work that this place must require. Which brings me to my next point.

Holy crap, some of these responses! I mean, most people have been constructive, but every time Nick posts one of these I become way more appreciative of his ability to put his real opinion out there knowing what kind of backlash is inevitably coming. You want to talk entitlement? Nick and anyone else who bust their asses over this site are entitled to use it as a forum for whatever negative or positive opinions they have about the website, its community, or the industry (or anything else, really). If your response to that forum is to use up their bandwidth to rudely accuse them of whining and self pity, well guess what? You're the one with inflated self-entitlement issues. Go make a better website and community than CHUD; then you can post on your editorial about how CHUD went downhill (and receive responses about how much of a loser you are after all that hard work you've done, the ingrates!). See, up above I wrote how much this website feels like it's mine, but I'm mature enough to realize that it actually belongs to the people who do all this hard work for us. Again, it isn't the constructive criticism I'm addressing here.

So, in conclusion, to CHUD.com: keep up the great work. I wouldn't be here if I didn't love it; I'd just type in a different web address into my browser (I still do it that way, I'm old school). To Nick: bravo for putting your opinion out there, regardless of what people say. I have a few ideas on how to improve things, but if they were good enough for Nick to take and make successful, it would be Nick and co.'s accomplishment, because they would be the ones to put in all the blood, sweat and tears.

Per the book, your post should read:

Handing out The Elements of Style would be a good idea in some cases.

How boring!

I agree that the writing has been pretty solid. I remember chatting with Renn in the chat room back in 2007 and 2008, and he's always had great things to say, so his writings are pretty interesting, and the Videodrome column is a great voice for him.

Can't leave out the fabulous ladies on the staff. Especially since both Andrea and Elizabeth get the sense of humor here on the site, and roll with it. The Carrie/period article is a high point.

The team said that one would go down in history as being my flag on CHUD...which helps the shame of my mom and sister having read it when I expressly told them not to.

Wow. I bet they were pretty surprised by it.

It certainly is a piece that will be on my list of favorite articles from the site. It also wouldn't have had as much of an impact if it had been written by one of the gents on the staff. Big kudos to you there for just doing the article, Elizabeth.

The thing about writing for CHUD, and the main point I'd like to make about Nick, is that you are allowed 100% responsibility for your own stuff. After my first front page article, Eileen told me to bold and italicize titles, and that was the first and last bit of editorial guidance I've ever received here. Nick invites people whom he can trust, then he sits back and trusts them. I was invited to do Sam Strange Remembers only. The Trailer Tracks and Paranormal Activity Demon stuff that came later was not solicited, but I felt at home enough to give it a try, even though that could potentially be seen as an asshole thing to have done on someone else's website (especially the Demon).

I think Nick is extremely open to ideas and willing to gamble on them a bit if necessary. This leads to great stuff, but it also bites his ass occasionally. Right now, there are many good voices on the site, and I'm excited about all of them. Renn is growing, Elizabeth is great, Alex and David are solid as ever, Andre has a bigger presence, and Joshua Miller is kicking all kinds of ass. This site has gobs of variety right now, rather than one identifiable voice, and I think some people miss that (and by "miss" I mean both senses of the word). The future of CHUD is as solid as the ideas these people come up with, and anything worth a shot will get that shot.

I need to just grow up at some point and realize that it's the internet and I put too much stock into people I know tangentially. Just this week someone I thought was a friend and someone who has been very helpful in recent months totally unloaded onto me with opinions that were so off the mark it hurt.

You never know.

I'm ok being the bad guy, I suppose. The people that really know me know the truth.

You were the easier target. I was afraid that my defensive perimeter of tin cans on a string wouldn't alert me early enough to get away from Greg David or Jacob Singer's walking corpses. Plus, you would get mad, then your grandma would come in and ease the tension.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable revamp into a hardcore porn site.

Chud: where film deconstruction and tenticle-love are barely a taints-worth of distance away

Dammit, there goes my idea for my new site, Cahiers Du Porno Au Tentacules.

Carnal Happenings Under Development?

Clitorii Harnessed, Used Disgracefully

I read this as "bald guy" originally. Don't horn in on my territory, Italian.

PUD

I was pulling for CHOAD myself.

heh