STEADY LEAK: WHAT THE MOVIE BUSINESS HAS DONE TO THE MOVIE SITES - Page 2

Assfuck they do. What are they if not a discussion where each person has to bring a coherent argument to the table? Vote with your click if you don't "like" them.

If you don't want trashy threads about celeb sex lives then get rid of the gossip forum. This is the only movie site I'm aware of that sets aside a ghetto for that kind of stuff, and its absurd to bitch about readers using that aspect of the site for the exact purpose for which it was created as if you have no control over it whatsoever. But, oh wait, your readers are always the ones at fault, right Nick?

The pride in this being a "site" rather a "blog" is misguided - there is no inherent quality difference between the two, it's just a slightly different format. And despite the hysteria about it from squares, Twitter and other recent networking developments are not necessarily a threat to long form content. If anything it's a good way of publicising long form content and getting the word spread amongst those who might appreciate it. Passively sitting back and moaning about 'the world today' and how you think everyone is so much stupider now helps nothing and makes you look insecure and out of touch. If you don't like where you feel the internet is going, be the one to set the standard and set an example.

Genuinely great content stands as its own champion - sitting there and angrily telling people it's great and implying your readers are degenerates when the hit ratio across your content isn't to your liking is a waste of time. If you believe you're putting out first rate content, but that it's not getting the attention you think it deserves, maybe you need to rethink your approach in terms of reaching an appreciative audience.

Bottom line: just create something you're sincerely proud of, quietly stand by it and for fuck's sake please stop playing the victim and throwing the blame for your perceived failures at everyone else.

For the record -- and don't read this as an attack on anyone, or a Switzerland stance on this topic -- I want to stress that I was just speaking very generally and not trying to slam our readers or complain about how our work is received. I didn't intend that at all

I write for a mixed bag of sites (some for money, some for passion, the best gigs offer both). One of these is CHUD, obviously, and I'm eager to help reshape it, and appreciate all conversations to that end.

Any frustration I'm expressing isn't about CHUD necessarily, but just what I experience online as a whole. Sometimes, I write a big piece and the reaction is so positive that I'm convinced people want *content* again. But the next day, the same kind of thing will just attract a lot of bitching about how it's not some Superman scoop. Again, I'm not singling out CHUD or its readers, it's just a general weariness. Sometimes you just write into such a void.

I really do believe the majority of readers (or at least the readers who will matter as the world slips into a new era of information and entertainment) are craving substance and discussion. There's always going to be room for quick-and-dirty bites, but I've definitely noticed a backlash or a weariness with a lot of that. I think the sites that capitalize on it will be the ones that survive.

But then again ... you look at what does get traffic or attention and you wonder all over again.

Nice to see an actual discussion breaking out instead of the wall to wall concern trolling that pieces like this cause.

Sadly I feel that in the matter of quality of content, things are counterintuitive on the internet. Tight focus, in depth analysis and a consistent editorial voice sound great. They will give you an extremely loyal base and in time a marginal increase in traffic. But the only places I've seen get a lot of traffic and word of mouth do the opposite. Top twenty lists with an entry per page to increase page views. Photo galleries with a photo per page to increase page views. Top ten movie memes of the year lists. Granted, some of them use the money generated to get legitimately good writers so I can't begrudge them too much.

But so far, the "If you build it, they will come" approach doesn't seem to work.

A lot of what Nick wrote, and what others have contributed in this thread, applies to sites well beyond those covering movies. I've been a writer for a web site (not directly tied to movies) for several years now and I've seen the shifts happen both on the user behavior side and the reactions from webmasters. As a writer, you have to roll with it even when it hurts to do so. The alternative is quitting the gig and getting a "real" job (that's a sardonic "real," all the writers I know go well beyond the call of duty to contribute to their sites).

Elisabeth, I've seen the same sort of reactions online to content. I know you know all this, because you've been in the space for a few years. I think the short-form stuff owes a lot to mobile browsing. As people adopt technology that allows them to consume content on the go, web sites are adapting to new behaviors. That's partly why you see dozens of short blog posts or lists on the web. And of course this content tends to be easier to produce than long-form content.

I respect the hell out of Nick and CHUD. Yeah, the site has changed a lot and published material that perhaps we wouldn't have seen here a few years ago. Some of it I've liked and some I've just shrugged and moved on. But at the same time, Nick doesn't resort to the tactics you see on some sites that are designed to eke out more page views. It's always been my perception that Nick and the CHUD staff care too much about the content and readers to do that. And I think they know that the audience is often aware that it's being manipulated. Instead, the staff here tends to be honest and upfront about how things run.

I can't stress how hard it is to maintain that kind of approach. It's taxing, both financially and psychologically. I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it.

Personally I think there is a place for both the short "news" stories and the longer editorial stuff. It's what makes Chud great after all.

This was interesting to read Nick and this thread alone is still a reason I keep coming back to CHUD. Thing I think Chud has done so well over the years is keeping things interesting.

I won't lie I think things have dropped a bit in quality but i'm alright with that given you try to fill that void a bit. I agree about individual reviews for most movies. For blockbusters I have no problems about tag team reviews but for others I like the individual ones (however I really liked reading Dre's and Renn's Tron reviews).

We need more passionate film lovers who can write that's all.

Keep tweaking and refining we appreciate it.

I am sort of laughing at the fact that I should feel sorry for people who aren't able to "make a living" writing for a website. I really wanted to make a living playing Magic: The Gathering when I was younger, but when I realized that probably wouldn't happen, I acted like an adult and moved on. Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it's ever going to be true. Or that it even should be true for that matter.

If you can figure out a way to make website writing profitable, then more power to you. If you can't, and you decide to run a website anyways, then quit your fucking whining. Either you are doing something like CHUD because you love it, or because you think it's important enough to keep going. It's not up to the rest of the internet to prop you up and support you or recognize your uniqueness. You have to earn that. Being around a long time doesn't mean you deserve anything. This isn't a union, there are no points for time in.

The media landscape has changed and progressed every year since you have been at this. I think the real problem that is being addressed in this editorial is the fact that you aren't a beautiful snowflake anymore. There are literally hundreds of film sites now. Some of which have figured out a way to make money. You may not agree with their methods, but coming out and railing against blogs just shows how out of touch you've become with the new landscape. 90% of the articles here are short-form blog entries. A lot of the content that you run isn't even movie-related anymore (seriously, when you started doing app reviews was that anything else other than an attempt to draw in a different/new set of readers?) Actually, the blog commentary in general just kills me, given that you demanded that all of the site contributors must start blogs... or else...

If the goal was to make chud into a successful business, and after 10+ years it isn't, that's on you. If you don't make enough money to pay staff or developers or anyone that you need in order to run this site, and you can't do any of that work yourself, they why the hell do you think you deserve to be in business? It would be like me opening up a financial services firm without knowing anything about investments or the stock market and demanding that all of my specialized employees work for free. You know, until the firm makes it ten years from now. No doubt, this will earn a passive aggressive tweet or two from you, but you really need to re-examine why it is you are doing this site.

I really enjoyed this article, Nick, and agreed/identified with a lot of it. This is exactly the kind of thing I've always loved about CHUD and I really don't see how anyone can think it's "too long"; I think some people have "fleshed out" and "overlong" confused (just look at the Aliens/Predator thread.)

I started a blog with a friend ages ago and always found my contributions taking the form of 1000 word or so editorial style pieces. A bit like this, really. I put an enormous amount of time, effort, and love into all of them so finding them habitually ignored in favour of the worst kind of lowest common denominator Tumblr garbage just led me to pack it in after a while. People are increasingly favouring bargain basement movie web sites/blogs - just look at the backlash against the wonderful recent increase in Tag-Team reviews. Even if you don't care about the show/movie in question, that format's so great that anyone griping about it has to be missing the point on some level. Or just looking for something else without realizing it.

Yesterday was my 2 year CHUD Forums birthday (no cards, s'alright though) and I was reading the site for ages before that. Happily so. I'm very excited to see what's next.

I know that this is not what this thread and Leak are about, but stop. Like Phil said, the endless teasing about new sites and redesigns and content is wearying. It obviously doesn't affect the current content output all that much, but it does affect general atmosphere and attitude. I understand one feels the need to hype up changes to get people excited, but that rarely (if ever) works unless shown something concrete. IMO, a much better choice would be to simply unveil things when they are done and then let them spread and catch on once they are up and churning out content. (edit: this kind of applies to the complaints about relative page hits, too. Just let the work stand on its own. A great thing about CHUD is that it has both Ke$ha getting her box munched and indepth thoughts on The King's Speech. Are you threatening to stop seeing and reviewing The King's Speech et al unless more people comment? This has been pretty much confirmed when it comes to the podcast...)
I can't help but feel like a lot of negativity would decrease if all this would be treated like a big business would treat a product launch, instead of the readers being privy to every miniscule setback etc.
Apologies if this is a slight derail, and for the record I'm quite excited about any new CHUD-related content.

Though I agree, I dont think Eileen is the person to aim it at.

I think this is important to underline. Having doubts isn't the same as wishing for failure, and I hope whatever criticisms have been leveled have been taken in that light.

Nick,
It seems you've spent a lot of time trying to pinpoint exactly what's going wrong and you're seeminly in-tune with the changing world of online movie reporting. Instead of letting that frustrate you, why aren't you trying to take those same concepts and Chud-ify them? As a business man, you seem to be able to recognize what's working for others, so why is it so hard to make that work for you? You're not selling out by marketing your site to a wider audience. People use the internet to waste time. You have to make it easy for them to do that (how much of your audience reads from work where shorter articles/news blibs would keep them coming back). This is a world where you're only limited by your own drive and creativity - you CAN have the best of both worlds (Chud-style content and the type of content you just wrote about).

I'm not saying you need to stop doing what you're doing, but take the energy you're using to write ineffective rants about everyone else and put that energy into beating everyone else at their own game, while still bringing the Chud.

You missed the point. This isn't about our audience.

OK. I'm done with ya. Good luck in all you do.

CHUD has never been a super focused well oiled machine. I think people have rose colored glasses about good old days that flat out don't exist. We're still in good days.

What the hell? I don't play fucking victim. I like where we are and who we are. I like the way we're doing it. I'm sharing an observational opinion with this piece nothing more.

Preach.

Oh absolutely, I just needed someone to quote.

I've never been high in my life, nor would I have any reason to start.

What folks have to understand is that these redesigns have killed me. I took the only large sum of money I've ever gotten and sunk it into the site and after many months of work my designers skipped the project and left us high and dry with a very clunky and incomplete site. For two years I sunk what little money I had into people to fix it. Finally the money ran out and I had to piece a team together to help me get over the hump. Every attempt failed, and there was so much stress and disappointment.

Now we're actually just about done and it is the biggest creative relief in my damn life. I have to talk about it, because it's been a huge albatross for me. I'm not pimping a product, I'm just excited to share it finally and get back to just worrying about typing words.

I don't have any self-loathing in me. I'm much less complex than that. I'm a generally happy guy. If you knew me in any real way you'd know that.

All those tangents were solid ideas and the goal was to empower other folks to foster them. Build a little empire of fun places to go. Didn't work out. Better to try and fail...

My reasons have never changed. I don't know where this is coming from.

We don't, we just see a lot of twitter and message board posts about how you feel under appreciated, want to kill people etc.

Well, it's just me venting about people who get in their own way and can't keep from making it difficult for me to make the hurt go away with enchanting internet ventures.

Ooops. Spoke too soon. I jinxed it.

Well, whether CHUD's approach has been by accident or design, I appreciate it. My point was more about the fact I've always thought that CHUD has focused more on content than on tricks to get visitors, both in the past and in its current form, and that you should be recognized for that. Even your lists aren't like other lists -- each entry tends to be a standalone article that a reader could conceivably enjoy as a unique piece of content without ever reading another entry in the series. Other sites produce lists (or image libraries) that are just meant to generate clicks. You'll even hear folks debate how many items make the perfect list as they scrutinize the number of people who drop out of a sequence page by page. But that's for lists that are organized into a single article with multiple page clicks. That's generally not how you guys do it and I think that's pretty awesome.

Fair enough. You're in the unfortunate position of being the face of a brand though, so it colors perceptions at times.

I realize now one of my favorite CHUD articles had jack to do with movies, it was the "Shit Interrupter" story from one of the Steady Leaks about 6-7 years ago.

Here's why I support CHUD.com:

1. Quality over quantity. (most films that get attention here are either culturally relevant or intellectually beneficial)
2. Confidence (Nick, Andrea, Renn and everybody I've met through CHUD.com are all positive people who know they kick ass)
3. Interactivity (talk shows, contests, screenings, events; the opportunities for fun get better every day)

Yep, pretty much. I like to think this place is smart.

Serious question: is it worth the sharing? Especially on the internet, and all that entails (for good and ill)? I don't want to seem like "give me the product, fuck off with the behind the scenes", because that level of access is part of what makes chud special. But...

Totally get that. You're jazzed and you can't wait to share. Who hasn't felt that way about something, anything that they've put a lot of time and effort into? That enthusiasm makes absolute sense.

I'm just, as respectfully as possible, suggesting that the enthusiastic gun-jumping hurts the perception of the site. And you can argue perception doesn't matter, but I think it kind of does. Everyone in this thread (me included) would be slobbing your knob if a revamp just turned up one day - finished, functional, and without months and months of false starts that we, frankly, never needed to hear about. (And I fully acknowledge you don't OWE anyone that! Except maybe yourself.) I'm just explaining how it's colored the perception of the site, to the point where it's become a running joke that nothing will ever, ever happen when you say it will (e.g., you announced this very editorial on Twitter/Facebook; the editorial turned up four days late).

I once knew a writer who refused to talk about the work he wanted to do; his theory was the energy you spend talking it up is the same energy you would have spent creating it, and you're depleting the well by talking about it beforehand. I don't buy it wholeheartedly, but I think there's some merit to the theory.

It ultimately doesn't matter to me; I'll be here when the content is. I dig the place. But the perception of the site being on its own schedule, whiffing self-imposed deadlines, animated gifs of a cow-infected iPhone app being reposted multiple times, and all the "just please YOURSELF, Nick" accolades which would have the site spiral into the tiniest of niches, aren't benefiting anyone or anything. And about 80% of it didn't need to be aired out for readers. I think it took a toll.

I think some people are attacking out of frustration over false starts and hints about a "new site" when they're waiting for THIS site to deliver on the revamp promise. I don't want this to be lumped in with an attack wave. These are just my ponderings on a slow work day, intended with respect and affection for the site.

(And I didn't accuse you of being high; I wondered whether some of the self-identified "silly" content made readers wonder. Apologies if it seemed like an accusation.)

I'm sorry you feel that way, Nick. I really do. I (mostly) grew up here. I'm the film fan I am today because of this place. The punk kid who started posting about X-Men and Natalie Portman over a decade ago wouldn't have given something like The Conformist a second look, whereas the dude writing this made it a priority. This place and the people on it have not only changed the way I look at movies, but introduced me to tons of other great art as well. That's not even mentioning the six months of steady TV writing I did for the site, which I knew I wasn't going to have time for long term but wanted to make it work. And to this day, I'm still very proud of the work I did. Even if I don't like it or find it unfunny or not my cup of tea, I still try to give the new features and ventures a shot. I am probably one of five people who read Grim Reaper: End of Days.

I told myself that I wasn't gonna respond, but given this and your last post about the gift exchange, I felt like I ought to. As I said on my Facebook, yesterday -- hell, the last four months in general -- was and may have been the wrong time to post here. As the former King of the Overshare, I won't go into detail but it's been rough lately, I find myself angry a lot of the time (for, it seems, much the same reasons you get annoyed at folks, but for different reasons), and easily annoyed the rest of that. That has not always borne itself out here in constructive ways.

I am sorry that I didn't find a more diplomatic way of voicing my disagreements with the editorial and the site yesterday. I think that others have captured the spirit if not the tone of what I was trying to say. And maybe I shouldn't have let my concerns/frustrations build up to a rant to make Howard Beale roll over in his grave. But I've felt this way for a while, and while just leaving is easiest, I'm also one of these loyal motherfuckers who needs to stick around until the end. I hope I'll find a more positive way of participating in the site and it's future.

In the end, this reminds me of an editorial I wrote for the site about Aaron Sorkin. In it, I talked about what he and his work meant to me, and how frustrated I was that it appeared he'd lost his spark. I understand change happens. I was here for the early days, the good old days, and these days. I think the post LOTR/Prequels years have been a high water mark for the site and the writing on it. But I have a voice here -- you're not Alan Ball or Sorkin or Ryan Murphy -- and I can use it when I disagree.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Everyone's waiting. I don't know for how long.

This is not goodbye, but if you'd like to continue this discussion, you know how to find me. After all, I still need to know where to send your holiday spiced anthrax.

Catch you on the flipside.

Nick

Interesting write up, though it's tough to know how to respond to it. Assuming you want an open and honest airing of opinions.... :

I love CHUD. I am aware that you guys are no doubt killing yourselves trying to get the NEW CHUD and the NEW SITE ready. I respect the work you put in, and I'm happy to post up enthusiastic support for it

Even if the NEW SITE doesn't interest me that much (not saying it doesn't, too early to tell), I want you to succeed. It's just that I have a very specific set of interests, and I feel like CHUD already does a pretty good job of covering them. Still though, I wish you success on that front

I started coming to CHUD for it's unique perspective and voice. Whether that was Devin's reviews or the thoughtful analysis he inserted into every news story he wrote up, CHUD brought me what none of it's competitors could: sober, intelligent insight into film, my favorite pastime

Now, since I've started to post here? The list of what I love about CHUD has only expanded. I definitely love discussing various topics on the board. It is part of the sense of community that keeps me coming back to post day after day. I don't think it dilutes what CHUD's about, since I still think to me anyway, CHUD=MOVIES. I like your writing and generally think that CHUD's humor aligns with mine, but it IS the movies that get me to come here. If it was about humor and wackiness alone, there are other sites that do it better

Now, with that said? There are some things that I've been less than fond of on the site lately, and I hope you will take it as constructive criticism if I point them out

If you'd like to foster more in depth and intelligent discussion on film...

You should get rid of TAG TEAM REVIEWS. I find they are often spoiler intensive, and a chore to read. I want to find one reviewer whose thoughts I respect and agree with, and read his write up about a movie. You guys are cool dudes and all, but I don't want to read a transcript of you talking amongst yourselves. It's like reading a editor only closed circuit message board. It's hard to carry that over to the regular board for discussion (Devin always had a firm opinion, and people would debate/discuss it), and it's tough to really get an impression of a movie (to know if I should be interested) from a word cloud of different writers thought bubbles. I am sure Dre, Renn ETC are good reviewers.. but I can't tell that from a tag team. If I am not going to just go to Devin's site for my review needs, you guys need to work on narrowing the focus when it comes to how you tackle film analysis. Let me get to know the individual reviewers voices so I can pick one that I think I can trust

The Articles... I've noticed that since Devin left, some of them especially give me little reason to read beyond the headline. Josh Miller, Ms Rappe, ETC, all have a firm take on whatever they write about. I am eager to see what they think about a given issue. Certain other writers seem to be fond of sticking up a photo of an actress in her underwear, telling an off color joke and calling it a day. Frankly, that just bores me

This next one? My most major complaint about the site since Devin left: it's hard for me to summon the energy to talk about film sometimes because of how diffuse that discussion has become on the board. When I read the MB before joining CHUD, I'd read years old POST RELEASE discussions because of the fascinating dialog that went down between Chewers. I liked that, until recently, there was a place for everything and everything was in it's place. If I wanted to talk about a movie I had not seen? I'd post in the PRE Release discussion. If I wanted to talk about a movie I HAD seen? I'd post in the POST RELEASE discussion, and I'd have the satisfaction of knowing that the time I put into putting my thoughts down would be 'part of the log', so to speak. That it would have it's place in the official thread for discussion of that movie

That has all been lost now. Now people haphazardly post in threads like "Renn's review of X" when in the past POST RELEASE threads were the place to discuss reviews by site editors. Chewers end up discussing the same movie in five different places across the board, with no official word from on high as to which is the correct place to discuss it.

Why are there now separate review discussion threads? It bugs me to no end. It makes me reluctant to post in the POST RELEASE because I figure most people are not even discussing stuff there anymore. I don't want to spend time writing my thoughts about a film only to have them disappear into a chaotic and disorganized message board (did we really need a new STAND UP forum? Wouldn't a STAND UP thread in the HUMOR forum have made more sense??)


Good news for CHUD! I don't really care about set visits or interviews (I don't like to be spoiled on films, or to think of actors outside their roles), so the fact CHUD doesn't get as many as Harry Knowles might? No biggie, IMHO. I wasn't reading them anyway

The board: please enforce the NEW RULES. It's become a jungle. I like that 'fun' is back on the board. I like being able to post images without worrying I'm going to get banned.. but some people are taking Devin's departure as license to break the rules. The NEW MODS? I think they are loath to punish their friends, for the most part. I can't tell you the number of times since Devin left that people have gone back to posting stuff like "You're retarded", with nothing else to add to the conversation beyond that. That is an automatic time out, according to the NEW RULES. It bothers me, it derails discussions, and it's against the rules. Please have your mods enforce them or just take the NEW RULES thread down. Ultimately I may have to struggle to post within the standards of CHUD at times too, but I think that's healthier than a free for all atmosphere. I find that I am a better poster when I can calmly state my thoughts without worrying about preemptively fending off random mean snark

This last one is difficult.. I can no doubt imagine the frustration you've gone through with the site/sites, ETC. It's your site, and you have the right to vent. With that said, I don't like the feeling that every few weeks there is going to be a new angry dust up with Devin or a lament about the state of CHUD. You may be 100% right on the issues, but as a movie website reader, that's not what I'm looking for. It's perfectly fair to reply to this with "read another site", but I just wanted you to know that I'd prefer not to be made aware of the sites problems beyond what is absolutely necessary. I like thinking that in my world, CHUD is A#1 24/7. Act that way yourself and people might perceive the site differently! Be the change you want to see!. You're trying to sell CHUD to the world. Sell them an image of a CHUD that's smart as hell, confident and doesn't really care if you read it or not because CHUD is for cool kids


OK, that is enough complaining for one day since this is a site that pretty much has done nothing but make my life better since I started reading it in 2004. I hope you understand that my criticisms, such as they are, come from a place of love and that I know it's your site, I'm just offering up my take on what I think works and does not work

OK that is all and have a merry Xmas, Nick

Kate, I say this with all sincerity: that was awesome.

Yeah Kate, that was pretty awesome. In actuality I'm in agreement with everything you've said. I also think it's interesting that we've got a regular ARMY of moderators and yet this place is pretty much unmoderated.

I don't think the boards have been especially out of hand or in need of moderating though.

Thanks, Spike and Richard. Just my take but glad to see I'm not alone in either my perspective on the issues or love for CHUD

Amen. I can't stress this enough. The kids don't want to see their parents fighting. Nick, your little op-ed is the kind of thing one writes to oneself for the sake of release and deletes.

ETA: despite all the shit I give Kate, I don't think anyone has made this point as well as she has.

Kate, I have you on my ignore list (and you're the only one there), but that was a pretty good post. I actually think about taking you off the list.

I second her arguments that Tag Team Reviews are weaker then single, focussed ones (instead: do tag team podcasts, and seriously, moviemicroscope every shitty movie in theatres, you're the best when you rip em in halves), that the Xs Review Thread disturb the post release discussions and that we shouldn't get all those updates about upcoming projects unless it's something big. You know, every talk about upcoming stuff gets perceived as a promise, and if CHUD doesn't deliver, well, it's not like people just shrug it off with a smile. It becomes an unfulfilled promise. Don't say the new site will be there really, really, really soon or that Fetal will come back etc., it's not that these promises make anything better. No one's actually waiting for them to come, it's just an afterthought that gets sparked again and again and then disappointed again and again when it does not come. I know the situation is tricky and that you give your all and we're behind that, but it's something else if you post it again and again in public on the front page.

That's like Robert Englund promising ANOES fans from FREDDY VS JASON on that a new FVJ will definitely come... someday. I saw that man at least three times between 2003 and the announcement of the remake and he just kept talking and promising upcoming stuff that never came. It got tired after a while. You stop clapping, stop nodding, stop expecting. See Dan Aykroyd and his Ghostbusters 3 talk. We'll be there first day when there's a teaser or trailer or actual opening, you know that, but don't continue being Aykroyd on this. At least keep it off the frontpage (disclaimer: I still love Aykroyd and his crazy crystal skull whine, but you get it).

I'd like to underline Kates message that you should keep all the non-movie stuff away from CHUD and focus on doing amazing movie related stuff... but I guess when the untitled new site comes, all of it will probably pretty much go there anyway. So that's that.

I also don't know why every or most podcasts are spontaneous affairs. Isn't that a bit hard to do? It often feels just like... you know, friends talking about movie stuff, and maybe, maybe something good happens in there. I think it could be improved to be more attractive for those who don't know you guys from the boards or in personal. How about speaking about the specific releases of the week/month? Or give each podcast a specific topic, like awesome action movies, forgotten horror gems, the best Nicolas Cage hair performances etc.. I gotta say I listen to it when I see it, but I don't have any interest in revisiting old casts, or visiting it regularly. And I read you guys like what, 2003? 2002? (edit: let's take 1999) I don't know how they're perceived by those who do not know you.

Oh, and you should send Elisabeth Rappe a big christmas gift this year. She's awesome.

One quick suggestion: as much as I love getting my news here, I think this site's best material came when Devin and Jeremy Smith were writing back-to-back long-form material, with Jeremy handling sweeping pieces covering genres and film history, and Devin basically taking on the world with fantastic editorials. I'm not saying stir shit to stir shit, but Devin's pieces were always thoughtful and took spirited stances, drawing in new readers and starting up all sorts of conversations, and I don't just mean online, I have plenty of movie geek friends out here who I've had come to me with CHUD's latest editorial burning a hole in their brain. This site's writing was at its best not when filling a third of a news article with quoted text from a press release or wittily disemboweling a shitty movie (as enjoyable as the phrase "direct-to-horseback" may be), but when putting out a piece discussing at length why Spielberg wasn't the right director for a Chicago 7 movie or how the Spider-Man remake could be secretly getting the Twilight treatment. Encourage your writers to start taking stances, and I don't mean to round out a news article or inject some personality, but to take film scholarship seriously and to get ambitious again. Ambitious in terms of content, not in terms of delivery. Patrick's site was the best around even though it was nothing but text against a white background on pages that went on forever, and if the quality of writing was great I wouldn't care if CHUD was bright pink lettering with a background of flashing Myspace images. Well maybe I'd care but not that much. A fresh version of the site doesn't matter a whit compared to the necessity for writing that provokes thought and argument. There's a reason Baptist preachers are the most enjoyable to listen to -- call and response.

Get ambitious again, or string along Beaks with crystal meth or whatever else it takes to get him back, because failure lies in half measures and I think that's where you guys are currently running risk.

To be a bit more constructive than my last post (maybe I was a little too harsh on Rath), some of the stuff posted in this thread does make sense to me. I come to the main site for personality and movie info in a nice tidy package. Long form articles marked out CHUD as something unique on the interwebs, and its something I'll always look forward to.

As far as the forums go, it can't be corralled. At least as far as what people are going to post on. Insubstantial threads are going to have more posts precisely because they're insubstantial and easy to write on. People behind the site publicly sweating about it isn't going to change a thing. That's the way its always been. There's always good movie discussion going on here, though, so if people are worrying about the state of these forums (and other SERIOUS INTERNET PROBLEMS) then post in them. So maybe we could all do with dialing it back a bit.

Well said, Kate. I enjoy some of the tag team work, but other has left me cold. Something like that is better in a visual medium. I do like the pre-release/post-release thread format better than a number of different threads. The True Grit threads have run in a couple of different threads, none of which seem to be its definitive thread.

That being said, I do have to agree with Dickson
Kate encounters a good bit of snark: some deserved, some not. But on the whole, most of it is one note snark and we, as a readership, just move on.

I love the CHUD. I started reading in college, 2005, I signed up for the boards in 2007. My first CHUD meme was Diva's ass. I still don't know what that was about, other than her ass. This place is great when it is focused on movies and television and video games--in total, moving pictures. The First Two Hours series of video game coverage has been fantastic. The book reviews haven't been great, and what few discussions there have been about books have been lackluster. I have found some great books I would never have picked through the Current Reading forum, but there is little discussion outside of 'Great! You'll love it' I wasn't enthused by the app reviews, or the few music reviews.

I have to agree with Phil's earlier comments: Some of the best things I have read have been either a list, review, editorial, or in response to the previous on the forum. The Lists have made me see movies I would have never touched. The editorials have made me view films differently. Yet the responses to those things have been what makes me keep coming back. Hollywood Whitewashing and other similar threads have been birthed in an article or list or editorial, but the depth of discussion is rich and textured and a tribute to the writers and people who come here. Ultimately I scan the news articles, but I go to the forum to see what the reaction is.

I know that people have complained about opinions in the news articles, but maybe the news needs to be shorter and have the same writer come back for a response. Maybe a clearly defined News/Opinion-Editorial sections in the same article.

Phil, the voice of reason, put it best as well about the updates and new website. I will be happy to see them, I am glad work is continuing, but until I can use it, it seems like vapor ware and I would rather hear less, rather than more.

Thanks for all the hard work. In the recent contest for the Narnia shield, you asked about the staff's reaction to some vile force, and I struggled to make sure I mentioned as many people as possible, but still missed more than a few. You do great work here. I am proud to tell people I come to this website. Living to work at what you want to do is difficult, and I hope the CHUD staff is pulling that off. Do know that it is appreciated.

This article comes from a place I recognize (unless I'm reading it wrong).

As someone who has spent most of his life creating or attempting to create art/entertainment in some form or another (career and free time), it can get frustrating... scratch that... infuriating... to know that all someone has to do is lipsync to a song on youtube and get millions of hits, to go viral, to be the new zeitgeist. I spend hours, days, and even weeks or months on a project (short film, comic book, video game, script, etc whatever), trying to make something that I can be proud of, something that would entertain me... and yet, "measurable" success always manages to find those without effort or talent. Continually. That kind of frustration is all around us and has been ever since certain undeserving internet content creators, tabloid fodder, or lazy reality tv took over the media. It's become even harder to be heard over the cacophony. But I think I just have to realize... that even if I could be heard over it all, my passions and creative output are probably too niche to make a lasting impression or reach a large audience anyway. Much of the entertainment I love is cult/niche. And I'm also willing to accept the fact that maybe I'm not the very best at what I do (God knows I have plenty of doubt).

That may sound like a tantrum, but it won't stop me from doing what I love to do. And hey, there's always hope that I'll grow, improve, and be able to continue making a living in some entertainment/art field.

I've come to CHUD over the years not just for the content, but also for the passion here. And the dedication, bumpy roads or no. The writers and readers CARE. And it shows.

For the record, most of the new mods don't have any ability to ban people or put them on time-out. We're also loathe to step in unless the conversation gets too heated or too vindictive. You're all adults.

The only way to SURVIVE as an artist is to do what you do FOR THE SAKE OF THE ART not for the sake of RECOGNITION. Recognition comes, not only as a fluke, but only if you do it for the sake of the art. Fuck the rest of them.

Point taken for sure. But the more time you're spending making art and less time bagging groceries or what have you, the better it is for an (well, THIS one anyway... I don't thrive on poetic pain) artist's well-being. Recognition/demand (ie: making a living at what you do) creates a certain amount of allotted scheduling for said art. It's cyclical for sure. Creativity/quality begets recognition begets more art begets creativity/quality. And yeah, there's also the slippery slope of diminishing returns and overloaded schedule and compromise and other negativities that can come with acquired success.

Maybe I'm not totally clear. When I say recognition, it's not about fame and fortune, it's about having the "luxury" to be able to spend the majority of my time loving what I do. I've spent portions of my life overwhelmed with drudgery, in situations that aren't conducive to creation or time-manageable to allow it. It's always been a FIGHT to get to that balance.

Sorry to derail.

But DON'T FUCKING blame the rest of them for selling out your art, and saying it's THEIR FAULT for your attempts at less in your art -- BUT THEY JUST DON'T SEE THE BRILLIANCE! If you're creating art you "can be proud of" then do it, and "hope" that it meets the cultural zeitgeist. If you sell out in an attempt to meet that "zeitgeist" don't you dare say you're proud of it when it fails.

Fortune/Recognition lies in honesty in the attempt meeting the cultural desire for what they want in their art-form. Bitterness lies in honesty in the attempt meeting cultural indifference (if you're focused on the external rather than the internal satisfaction). Pandering lies in dishonest attempts in meetng the cultural demand.

That's tough, because entertainers WANT to please an audience. It's part of the internal satisfaction. There's a difference between commercial art and fine art. There's a difference between storytelling and writing in a diary. If you can't FIND your audience, some of that satisfaction will never come to fruition. Stage actors love the applause... and not always for selfish reasons. It's not B & W.

You might be able to say you're satisfied if your completed movie sits in a can in a basement (you did the best you could and you're proud of the accomplishment), but if it informs or makes someone laugh or scares the pants off a crowd, the art has more purpose, no?

"Artists"

Are you saying they're mutually exclusive?