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The Norse Gods are Fictional

post #1 of 33
12/22/10 at 2:25pm
Thread Starter 
So the Norse Gods are fictional characters. I know, radical stance to be taking, right?

And yet, in the wake of the casting of Idris Elba as Heimdall, there's been a small sub-controversy surrounding the modern-day followers of the Norse deities, who do exist. First, Andy Khouri wrote this well-meaning but stupid article on Comics Alliance in which he mentioned that the Norse gods are, y'know, made up. Actually he specified that they were made up by a bunch of drunken Scandinavians.

This caused a minor backlash in the comments among people who still worship those gods--of whom there are way more than I ever would have expected. Then Ragnell, an intelligent comics blogger with whom I have agreed more often than not, wrote this.

I'm the LAST person in the world to bitch about "politically correctness gone mad" and I realize that the fact that we're dealing with an extreme minority religion changes the game a bit here. Particularly since neopagans tend to be the kind of liberal commie hippie types that I'm most comfortable with, politically. (Ragnell's points about the depiction of the female goddesses are well taken, aside from the rest.) But at the end of the day I have to say the same thing to them as I would to followers of the fish-multiplying zombie carpenter: sorry, but it's just a story. And I think it's getting a bit loopy when you can't acknowledge that.
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post #2 of 33
12/28/10 at 6:40pm
I think that if the Norse pantheon caught on, and millions of people today thought Thor was a deity of great power and wisdom, then people would say "Christians? Who cares if we offend them. Do people still believe that hooey?"

It's all circumstantial really.

On another note, 90% of these Pagan people do it to impress/get attention/be "unique". I've met a fair number of them and they all watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer and talk about how superior they are. It's pretty sad.
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post #3 of 33
12/28/10 at 6:46pm
As a supporter of Pagans, I can see where the anger is coming from. If you're making a film about Jesus? It damn well better be in Aremeic! If you're making it about Thor? Cast Japanese people, whatever, it's all made up anyway

Pagans have had a Christian/Muslim boot on their throat since late antiquity, and so I defintely can see how they'd get PO'd when people don't treat their beliefs with the same respect usually reserved for Monothesism. People still worship the Roman/Greek gods too, yet those beliefs get taught in 9th grade not as part of the religion unit in world history, but in honors english as fiction
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post #4 of 33
12/28/10 at 6:49pm
Because it is fiction.
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post #5 of 33
12/28/10 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketchy Griff View Post
Because it is fiction.
::sighs:: Did you see my over all point though? That people are expected to walk on egg shells when discussing fictional characters like Jesus, but if you're fond of Thor you're treated as a joke?
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post #6 of 33
12/28/10 at 6:54pm
Well, I agree it's pretty messed up, but there's really no way to change it. Like I said, Jesus is srs bsns because millions of people worship him, but Thor is old news. Is everyone worshiped Thor, then Jesus would be silly.

But lets face it, worshiping Thor is pretty silly, just like worshiping Jesus is. It's all pretty silly, it's just ranking them.

In the grand scheme of things, making sure the worshipers of Odin don't get their feelings hurt isn't on the top of my to-do list.
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post #7 of 33
12/28/10 at 6:56pm
Polytheism is so BC, Kate.
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post #8 of 33
12/28/10 at 7:04pm
At least Jesus actually existed.
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post #9 of 33
12/28/10 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Polytheism is so BC, Kate.
For some people, perhaps. I, however, belonged to an organization known as the JCL. Our creed?
Quote:
We the members of the Junior Classical League, covenant to hand on the torch of classical civilization in the modern world.

We believe an acquaintance with the civilizations of Greece and Rome will help us understand and appraise this world of today,

Which is indebted to the ancient civilization in its government and laws, literature, language and arts.

We affirm the JCL experience develops responsibility, fosters brotherhood, promotes enthusiasm, encourages competition, inspires dedication and enriches our total growth.
Our official song?
Quote:
Seeking the best, the highest our goal
Working for greatness through glories of old.

Searching the realms of the golden past,
We follow the Classics' truths that last

In knowledge, truth, and fellowship, we're growing every day The friendly hand of J.C.L. aids in every way.

In Rome's proud steps we're marching on,
With every true colleague,

And forever we'll hold to the Purple and Gold,
Of the Junior Classical League.
I carry my JCL membership card with me to this day. JCL and the values it was founded upon were a huge part of my American high school experience, and mean an enormous ammount to me. Yet there are still those who think this stuff is worthy of mockery. That's why it bothers me and really gets under my skin. You want to believe in your silly carpenter? Fine. Best give Jupiter Optimus Maximus (and Thor, too!) his due while you're at it though
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post #10 of 33
12/28/10 at 7:32pm
That doesn't quite sound like worship though.
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post #11 of 33
12/28/10 at 7:54pm
What kind of melody does that song have?
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post #12 of 33
12/28/10 at 8:23pm
Valhalla is easily one of the most fun and crazy afterlife options, so i can see the appeal; also, if no harm's being done whatsoever, let anyone believe and worship whatever they want, from Allmighty Odin, to Kindly Jesus, to the power of the Atom or Quantum Physics.
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post #13 of 33
12/28/10 at 10:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketchy Griff View Post
Well, I agree it's pretty messed up, but there's really no way to change it. Like I said, Jesus is srs bsns because millions of people worship him, but Thor is old news. Is everyone worshiped Thor, then Jesus would be silly.

But lets face it, worshiping Thor is pretty silly, just like worshiping Jesus is. It's all pretty silly, it's just ranking them.

In the grand scheme of things, making sure the worshipers of Odin don't get their feelings hurt isn't on the top of my to-do list.
<kevinspacey and jesus>Billions! Once again, the press underestimates me.</kevinspacey and jesus>
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post #14 of 33
12/28/10 at 11:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
That doesn't quite sound like worship though.
No, we took time to observe religious holidays officially sanctioned by the Roman state, and had pot luck Parentalia dinners. A troop of legionaries from England came to train us. We raced chariots drawn by enslaved ox strong members of the JCL and wore period garb, constructed and tested catapults, designed scale models and *fought other JCLs in quiz show buzzer format competition*

And Patrick, as for the official song? I remember it being kind of atonal and droning. I liked this quality and often my friends and I would recite it in a monotone like an incantation (when called upon to sing it at various functions)

If you must hear it rendered musically though, there are plenty of JCL SONG videos on YOUTUBE
**
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post #15 of 33
12/28/10 at 11:18pm
Yeah, I can't imagine why people would tease you guys.
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post #16 of 33
12/28/10 at 11:21pm
Come on guys, you can troll her better than this. Step it up, please.
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post #17 of 33
12/28/10 at 11:24pm
Alright, alright, back on topic.

Here's a question for you: Lets say some Alabama school-board (sorry Alabama, you have been chosen) decides to teach creationism as well as Evolution. I'm sure it's been done before.

Lets say some kid and his parents come in furious and say "You can't teach Christianity and not Norse mythology, because that's what we believe!"

Then what? What makes a religion a religion? True belief? The number of people who follow it?
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post #18 of 33
12/28/10 at 11:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketchy Griff View Post
Yeah, I can't imagine why people would tease you guys.
No one teased us. JCL was the largest most active club of them all. We took coed overnight trips, stayed in hotels and wore togas and tunicas.

And to your next question.. Obviously there is no difference. If your school teaches creationism? I hope that in geography you make sure to discuss how japan was formed when drops of water fell off a giant magic sword. Just because a large number of people believe some crazy story does not make it sane. If you say that creationism needs equal footing with evolution, I'd hope you are ready to teach kids about how the great turtle gave birth to the world the way some native Americans believe


EDIT Forgot to mention (because I never got to go) but JCL also takes trips to Italy
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post #19 of 33
12/29/10 at 12:07am
What kind of tempo? Are we talking 80 - 105 or 65 - 80 BPM?
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post #20 of 33
12/29/10 at 12:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketchy Griff View Post
Then what? What makes a religion a religion? True belief? The number of people who follow it?
I'd say number of followers, age, and money. You got to be able to throw your weight around as a unified body if you want to be called a religion, otherwise you're just a cult.

The believers of the Norse gods really aren't enough great enough to need to be paid attention to in this type of situation. The Asgard are aliens in this movie, what are you going to do about it?

In regards to Idris Elba, you got THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST and COLOR OF THE CROSS. How much controversy was there that James Caviezel, who isn't black, is playing Jesus? I mean there are Christians that believe that Jesus was black, right? Of course, people did apparently complain when Jean-Claude La Marre wasn't white when he played Jesus.

It's a movie. Do what you want. THE AVENGERS will have a dude in sci-fi armor fighting next to a super soldier fighting next to a god fighting next to a dude with a bow and arrow. I don't recall hearing about this when we studied Norse mythology/religion in school.
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post #21 of 33
12/29/10 at 12:48am
Asgaardism, or whatever you call it, is really quite popular in prison with white supremacists.
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post #22 of 33
12/29/10 at 12:50am
Certainly a group with the ability to get things done.
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post #23 of 33
12/29/10 at 12:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Asgaardism, or whatever you call it, is really quite popular in prison with white supremacists.
I thought we agreed not to call her that any more?
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post #24 of 33
12/29/10 at 1:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
The believers of the Norse gods really aren't enough great enough to need to be paid attention to in this type of situation. The Asgard are aliens in this movie, what are you going to do about it?
Asgard is where they live. They're called the Aesir.

But really? ALL gods are made up. At least relative to each other.
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post #25 of 33
12/29/10 at 1:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
Asgard is where they live. They're called the Aesir.

But really? ALL gods are made up.
Bah, Stargate calls them the Asgard.
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post #26 of 33
12/29/10 at 1:30am
We're talking gods here, not superheroes.
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post #27 of 33
12/29/10 at 11:42am
People are really going to be pissed when Jack Black is picked to star in Bret Ratner's Quetzalcoatl.
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post #28 of 33
12/29/10 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
We took coed overnight trips, stayed in hotels and wore togas and tunicas.
You and every fraternity in the country.
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post #29 of 33
12/29/10 at 6:50pm
I don't really get comparing the JCL to religion. Or really what it has to do with anything, they don't actually worship. It's a Classical Club. That's like saying the Junior UN is a governing power. I mean, from what I understand, it's a great place for teenage Max Fischers to hang out. But it really has nothing to do with anything, because they study and promote classical studies and it has nothing at all to do with active worshiping religion.
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post #30 of 33
1/4/11 at 12:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
No one teased us. JCL was the largest most active club of them all. [I]We took coed overnight trips, stayed in hotels and wore togas and tunicas.
So do you guys, like...have orgies and stuff?
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post #31 of 33
1/4/11 at 3:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rando View Post
People are really going to be pissed when Jack Black is picked to star in Bret Ratner's Quetzalcoatl.
Hahahaha. You realize that you've just pitched a movie more entertaining than Gulliver's travels, right?

I was really hoping McG was gonna get it, but I can live with Ratner, as long as they shorten the title to Q or Q-dog or something, and Black-eyed Peas are on the soundtrack.
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post #32 of 33
1/4/11 at 5:08am
all hail the flying spagetti monster. it will destroy all your puny gods
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post #33 of 33
1/4/11 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Jarvie View Post
all hail the flying spagetti monster. it will destroy all your puny gods
Agreed, although it will known as Marvel's Flying Tagliatelle Monster by then of course...
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