HAS KEVIN SMITH FOUND A HIGHER CALLING WITH RED STATE? - Page 2

I'll admit it's what got my interest up, but I don't think you're wrong about that being a calculated move. That said, I don't begrudge Smith in the slightest for name dropping the Phelps clan- who really are a target of hate that seems to unite everyone.

And I don't know if I have the fortitude to watch that America's Most Hated Family doc after just seeing the first few seconds of the congregation singing "I Hate America". That reporter's look of aghast mirrored me completely.

Is that doc the Louis Theroux one? An absolute legend of a journo.

That Louis Theroux doc was one of the few things I have seen on TV to make me really angry. Nearly trashed my TV in a rage

The most disturbing scene? The young lady smiling and polite whilst telling Louis he was going to burn in hell for living with his girlfriend whilst not being married. Second most disturbing scene?: The kid getting glassed in a drive by whilst at the protest, if people are going to respond to these hate mongers they shouldnt go lower by attacking an 11 year old...

Correct! The first part that I watched on YouTube is probably scarier than the entirety of Red State, and this is coming from someone who's already cutting a lot of slack for the trailer.

I have a feeling that the performances are going to be the strong point of Red State. Michael Parks being the stand out.

Is John Goodman playing some law enforcement type person?

Loved that Theroux documentary. The most compelling part of the whole thing was when Theroux focuses on the young woman who is clearly in conflict about the whole thing but can't see it.

Probably the only tme I've seen the guy legitimately lose his cool.

It's been a while since I've seen it. When did he lose his cool? I mostly remember being amazed that he didn't go on some murderous rampage on the group. He never seemed directly confrontational and just let the WBC's antics speak for themselves.

Yeah I don't remember him losing his cool either. The only time I do remember him really freaking out is when he walked in on a gangbang in the swingers episode.

It's been a while since I've seen it, but towards the end when he gets into a debate about how Jesus would react to the WBC if he rose again you can tell he's beginning to get proper angry. He never usually lets his emotions through like that.

The swingers freak-out is fantastic. He looks like he's just seen Cthulhu.

That was a fascinating doc, David Chater from The Times said it best - "Theroux deploys all his logic and charm to find the humanity beneath the rhetoric, but ultimately fails. It is difficult to reason with people who think that holding up a placard proclaiming 'Jews worship the rectum' is 'a courteous and loving' thing to do."

Harry goes to bat for Kevin Smith.

Hey, Harry - you're on wafer-thin ice when it comes to lecturing people about how to react to movies.

It's the Clerks 2 bit that called time on that piece for me.

I like Harry I really do, but sometimes his articles are baffling. What he writes there doesn't even address what the title of article is about.

Haha. Not surprising since he apparently loves everything Smith's done. Harry reminds me so much of a friend of mine who sees everything that comes out yet has only once admitted to disliking a movie. That movie? Cruel Intentions II.

People have said, "Grumble mumble would anyone even care about this if it wasn't Kevin Smith."

I say, "Would anyone be bitching about the teaser if it wasn't Kevin Smith?"

Cut the dude some slack. It's apparently a small, personal film, done on the cheap because it had to be. Whatever else it is or isn't, it's not another horror remake or PG-13 ghost flick.

Motherfuckers are gunning for him already over some fragments of footage. Which, frankly, look promising to me.

Could be awesome, could be the dude's a born-again horror director (no pun intended). Or could be a fiasco, "dude, stick to dick jokes." I don't know yet. You don't either.

Surprising, considering the fact that Harry violating some cute Asian chick with his pale, gelatinous bulk while she whimpers ineffectively is totally the stuff of Hentai.

Yeah but see the thing is: nobody would be bitching about the teaser if it wasn't Kevin Smith, since it would pass under their radar like literally dozens of D2DVD derivative horror flicks are doing every damn week. Nothing in the trailer suggests this will be anything different from any other backwood torture porn you'd never be bothered to watch. We all could be horribly wrong when this turns out to be a future horror classic, and I'd honestly love that- it's not that I prefer films to suck just so I can go 'told you so'. It's just that nothing in the trailer promises more than derivative fare, other than the presence of some good actors.

And also let's be frank here- Smith has been coasting off the goodwill for Clerks since, well, the release of Clerks. Which by the way is not a good movie by any standard. Is it a funny movie? Yes, it's hilarious. And since I was a grunge slacker in the nineties, I still can't name any other movie that spoke to me on such a personal level at the time. Did it show some potential? Sure. But since then- all the way back to 1994- not one of the eight features he's directed/written has in any way lived up to that potential. I don't even think he's that good at dick jokes, really. So I don't see why he has to keep getting cut some slack. After all, the main reason we're still talking about him while plenty of other directors with promising debuts have vanished from the collective memory, is because that's the one thing Kevin Smith really excels at: getting himself talked about.

Before I get into the rest of the post, lemme just say that I don't see that much content in this teaser to really pull my opinion too far in one direction. But, to be honest, I'm not getting a lot of the complaints for this one. Yeah, it's been a long time since Smith has made anything really worth watching but as a standalone teaser, this looks creepy, effective with a great cast. The fact that this looks like your typical modern gritty horror film seems like a bit of a bow towards box office/mainstream audiences moreso than a result of a lack of any skill or imagination. I mean, I've seen a lot of solid horror films use that aesthetic and a lot of shit films use it too, and in both instances I end up either liking or disliking the story, characters and themes. Rarely does the aesthetic play that large a role in my appreciation. But to casual audiences, the gray, gritty look is a weather vane for the genre. They see the trailer, they "get" it. Not necessarily my favorite style, but for all its grimness, its not a particularly garish or obnoxious look.

And as far as the familiarity of the "religious horror" genre, I really can't think of too many films that have approached it head-first, and in a non-supernatural way. Last one I'd seen was FRAILTY, which was a while ago.

So does that mean my optimism is completely unguarded? No way. Basically, the big flaw in this otherwise fine teaser is Smith himself. I tend to put faith that most filmmakers are not in it to make shitty films (Shankmans and Levys aside). They want to make great movies but the process or their lack of talent always seems to get in the way. Smith's past few pictures have seriously put that into doubt in that I have trouble believing he gives that much of a fuck. I try to abstain from using the term "hack" since its such a stinging pejorative but that is what I think of when I see his name now.

He shouldn't be, if all he was doing was remaking Clerks over and over. But the one thing lots of folks complain that he hasn't done — doing something different — he seems to be doing here, and yet the bitching continues.

I dig Smith. I'm not a stone fanboy of his, there's stuff he's done that didn't work for me, and I didn't even bother with Cop Out. But honestly, the idea of him doing a politically tinged horror movie excited me when he started talking about it, and now that he's actually doing it I'm damn eager to see it.

Not directed at anyone here, truly (much moreso at the AICN talkbackers who delight in making "fat fuck" jokes at his expense), but I honestly feel a lot of venom aimed at Smith comes from jealousy. That's not the usual "ah, you're just jealous" argument, which can usually be dismissed; it's very specifically "That guy's just like me; why does he get to make movies and have his career and I have to flip burgers? I can make a better movie than he does," etc etc etc.

And it's true; he's a fanboy who crossed over to the other side. Few others with his background have really followed suit. That's why fanboys hate him, even though he's the kind of guy they'd enjoy shooting the shit with in the comics shop. Fanboys also hate Knowles, Faraci, McWeeny ... it's very much a subsect that subscribes to Morrissey's "I hate it when my friends become successful," especially when there's such a gulf between, say, Smith's life and their life. AGAIN, NOT AIMED AT ANYONE HERE. There are certainly valid reasons not to dig the man's work, chacun a son gout, etc.

And truly, that list of Smith's movies Harry rattles off points up that Smith really hasn't made Clerks over and over again. Love or hate his stuff, film for film he has tried not to repeat himself too much. Even the soulless-looking work-for-hire Cop Out was a departure.

So, yeah. The teaser, backed with the knowledge that, unlike some of his recent stuff, the story's actually about something he does give a shit about, makes me excited.

Well, I WAS looking forward to Christmas dinner.

God dammit, Jake...I just...damn it.

What dtv horror have you been watching? I'm legitimately curious since every time I brave the waters of that genre I get something seriously unwatchable, but I've heard there's some good stuff and have been meaning to get into it. Fwiw, I think the footage here is shot quite well, way better than any dtv I've seen (mostly Asylum, which is highly competent but uncreative), although the trailer itself feels like something Smith whipped up in Final Cut in half an hour.

Hey, that wasn't me! Unless his name's Jake too.

According to his twitter that is exactly what he did.

I love you.

Too many fanboys (Edgar Wright, Tarantino, Rodriguez, etc.) have "crossed over" as of 2010 for that defense to hold any water anymore, Martin. The rest of them got on with their careers while Smith worked hardest at maintaining the "fanboy who crossed over" tag.

It's harder to hate those guys. They make good movies. Smith is the definition of 'the emperor's new clothes'.

Seriously, if it's a jealousy thing, why aren't leagues of fanboys as vocally negative of the guys who have enviable skills?

Perhaps the jealous ones are jealous because Smith has the enviable position of being where he is without exhibiting much talent or skiiiiiiillzzz they know that they'll never have?

Basically, "I can do that shit! Where's MY millions!?"

Oh ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho... Just a theory. Merry Christmas Eve!

I'm jealous of Smith. He gets to make movies. I'm jealous of pretty much everyone who gets to make movies.

Nope. The name's Jason David Rhodes. Guess you have a reputation that precedes you!

How you doin'?

Yeah, I think that's a big chunk of it. The "I can make a movie better than that" attitude that breeds incredulous jealousy in delusional morons.

There's that self-hating anti-nerd nerd rage which plays into it too, where a lot of the hate aimed at Smith is from dorks who don't like that other dorks think Smith is rad.

So much rage.

Nobody wins.

Smith ruined whatever kudos he could have gotten with Red State...instead he finds the dumbest things to bitch about (reactions to a temp trailer) and then wonders why everyone hates him and it starts affecting his movies' attendance numbers. The guy looks to have a genuine comeback and he's screwed the pooch already. Smith is more talented at self destruction than creation.

I think to come in contact with Kevin Smith's crazy self destructive rage, don't you kind of have to be looking for it? Also, a big reason he gets to keep making movies is the crazy divisive amount of cyber talk he generates, so all the bitching about it is just enabling him.

Well, that's what I get for scrolling too fast. My apologies.


Don't smash me.

These most recent tweets sum up my issues with Smith - used to be a hard-core fan back in the day:

Coming from the same person whose publicly shit on movies out loud at college Q&As, podcasts, commentaries, etc. over the years. Bitching and whining because *gasp!* critics didn't like Cop Out. Suddenly the same ones who championed him all these years should have to pay to see his stuff?

And now it's "fucking WASTEFUL" to voice one's distaste for a movie?

He's become the sort of jackass that he'd crack wise about at one of those university chats.

Even if Smith makes movies that "only his fans" will see, all his films have made their money back (which is more than Smith's hero Linklater can say about his last several movies). Diminish him all you want, he's found a system that works for him. Good for him.

Well, if I were someone who had all of these chances to make movies and didn't improve my craft/skills, I'd be Kevin Smith. Keep touting the jealousy thing. The fact of the matter is, there's actual hungry talent being passed up for letting this guy make another movie.

The trailer didn't do anything to me. I don't think I've seen a film of his I liked.

I applaud Smith for trying to do different things and to branch out and expand his horizons. The problem is that he's proven that he can't. He's tried and failed and has shown that he just can't do it. Someone earlier on the board said that he's the epitome of "the emperor has no clothes" and this is exactly it. Clerks wasn't the heralding of some brand new visionary in Hollywood who was going to shake things up and do amazing things. It was the heralding of a dude who makes movies like Clerks.

Red State doesn't look to be anything different than all of the religious tinged, dtv, movies I see on SyFy all the time. I'm sorry I can't think of any names right now, but they are out there. The last one I saw that I can remember was written and directed by some comic-book writer. So for people to say that these films aren't out there are wrong.

Smith knows the jigs up, and he'll have to go back to making movies about convenience store geeks. Problem is, everyone's sick of those movies. That's why he's lashing out because he's scared.

Wasn't able to watch this until now, due to being away from a computer during Xmas. That is hands down the most visually accomplished thing he's ever done. Tracking shots, rack focus, someone found the shutter speed button - who shot this? Edit: shot by the same guy who's been shooting for Smith since Clerks. Looks like he went and got an actual career while Smith spun his wheels. Good for that dude!

He's stated on Smodcast that after his upcoming hockey movie "Hit Somebody" there's a good chance he'll leave the movie-making biz. He said he feels he's said all he has to really say at this point.

Holy moly, he shot Zyzzyx Rd!!!

When the mortgage is due, I'm sure we'll hear him talking up a storm about Jay & Silent Bob Save Christmas. Not that you could hold that against the guy, he has a wife and kid to support.

Smith should pursue rewrite work, it's lucrative and he doesn't have to take credit...Soderbergh did it during his slump.

I never knew that. What films did Soderbergh do rewrites on?

A lot of the name writer/directors do re-write work when they're in between jobs. Darabont spent a large chunk of the 00's doing ghost work.

Problem is, Smith's just marginally better as a writer than he is as a filmmaker. And he's a pretty terrible filmmaker.

As long as there are teen comedy in need of knob jokes, Smith won't have trouble finding re-write work.

He'd also have to keep his mouth shut about it and not tell all Mom & Dad's business on Smodcast - a near-impossibility for him.

But what's your frame of reference for him sucking at what he's attempting here? In the (not unlikely) event of this one being shit, then yeah we can basically close the book for good on Smith and what he's all about. But honestly I don't get this allergy people seem to have to the idea of waiting a few short months for a movie to actually be screened before writing it off for good and making it the latest forum whipping boy.

Seems to me that Smith, Burton and Lucas are like the unholy trinity of directors whose very existence on this planet is enough to send butthurt internet geeks into a circle-jerk of infinitely-repeating bile; what they're actually doing or not doing barely seems to matter, just so long as everyone can have their nice reassuring 2 Minute Hate.

Admittedly I don't have one, but everytime he's tried to go out of his comfort zone he's fallen on his face: Jersey Girl, Cop Out, Zack&Miri, Dogma (kind of). The only thing he's done recently that I've even considered worthwhile watching was the Reaper tv show. Who the hell knows...maybe Smith is a born horror writer/director and this is the genre he belongs in. I tend to doubt it, but who knows. I'm just basing this on past movies.