Fanbases

There's a difference between a Firefly fan and a Browncoat. Or a Star Trek fan and a Trekkie. One group is an enthusiastic fan of a property. So's the other, only without the perspective.

Trust me, Prankster, there are PLENTY of complaints about crazy Potter fans. Especially the fanfiction writers. *shudders*

Anyway, this is definitely an interesting topic, but your comment about "being one of them" hits the nail on the head. I consider myself a part of several fanbases (Browncoat, Scott Pilgrim-ite, comics and superheroes, you name it), and thus have to grit my teeth when the stupid fans come out of hiding.

Also, I totally agree that Devin's hate for Firefly based on the Browncoat hate was unwarranted. Also also: dude, when did Jeremy Slater die? That's not the same Slater on the boards, is it?

I think I may just have to add this to my sig, Dickson. This made my day.

Browncoats are fine. In fact, they often use their collected powers for good. See: The Can't Stop the Serenity charity screenings they host every year.

And you can't blame FIREFLY fans for "selling" their property. If they didn't, the damn thing was gonna die. (And after SERENITY tanked, it kinda did.) HARRY POTTER fans don't "sell" because they never had to.

Also, the only things that really turn me off from a fanbase are fanfic and shipping. This could help explain why BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER is my all-time favorite television show, yet I pretty much detest talking about it on the Internet.

What collected powers? They couldn't even make the one movie, which was fairly cheap, successful. Bark is bigger than their bite and all that.

I'll give Scott Pilgrim this, it succesfully completed its run as a comic and as a movie. There was no premature cancellation of the comic nor did the movie just never come together and not get made. Good or bad.

The Internet is fucked, and you're going to get the really annoying fans for a lot of properties getting a voice and using it. If you really want to say what's worse...well, I don't see fans of other properties troll the Internet to comment on some random blog or board when someone says something bad about Twilight.

Dude, you just badmouthed Browncoats because they didn't make SERENITY "successful" and then immediately followed that by praising the SCOTT PILGRIM movie solely for the reason that it got made. Do you see the irony here? It's guys like you who give fanbases a bad name.

I'd like to offer mild defense for fanfiction: some of it is really excellent, well-done stories that make you wish the authors would go professional and try something of their own.

Unfortunately, that's maybe 1% of all fanfiction. The other 99% is the worst kind.

Even 1% is probably pushing it ... but, yeah. If you enjoy something -- a book, a movie, a TV show -- use it as inspiration to create your own worlds.

Neither fanbase could make their respective movies "successful," though I imagine that each will eventually make a profit or at least break even.

My point isn't to badmouth Browncoats, but you act like they're a viable demographic. They really aren't. Hell, I like the show, but c'mon.

I also liked Scott Pilgrim, but I'm not going to call myself a Pilgrim-ite and talk to everyone I can about how awesome it was.

Well, I still enjoy well-done fanfiction on its own level, to be quite honest. Sturgeon's Law DEFINITELY applies, though.

I didn't say there were enough of them to get the show relaunched. All I said was that they tend to use whatever collective powers they have for good. They've raised more than half a million bucks for Equality Now over the past five years. Sounds like a much better use for fandom than making FIREFLY movies in your backyard or writing shitty fanfic. Give 'em credit.

Sure, it's good, hell it's great that they can raise that much money for charity. But man, I do not need to be told that Zoe is some iconic female in fiction and that Firefly is the best space sci-fi ever a hundred times. Nor do I need to have the world in general referred to as "the 'verse" forever.

If you want to see the worst of both sides, read through the Scott Pilgrim Post-Release thread again.

On the one side you've got people hating on the film because they loath the lead actor (PK) or simply find no chemistry between the lead actor and actress.

But on the other side you've got people saying things like "if you don't see that this film is a Profound Statement Of Ours Times, you must not be a Human Being".

Sadly. both sides also present cogent well thought out arguments about why they like/dislike the film itself. I say sadly because I'd prefer the arguments without the "U SUXXXX!" type of invective.

I'd say getting a major studio to greenlight and release a feature film based on a failed TV show is a pretty considerable achievement, regardless of how that film fared at the box office.

Best Ever Fan Fiction? THE EXORCIST: SYNCHRONIZED. Truly inspired.

Hate for Browncoats? I guess I don't hang out on the board enough to notice.

I'm not a Browncoat but I came to love the show and the movie. I wish more people knew what a charmer it was, but I take comfort that its charm hasn't faded over the years. I'm confident that like many cult classics, it will endure as more and more people discover it till it's success eclipses the memory of its failure. In the meantime I'm glad to see Fillion and some of the other actors get their due on other shows/films.

I think the fan hate comes down to fans of properties that don't get a lot of respect/revenue in the mainstream in comparison to others. It's hard to understand why others don't love something that you're passionate about. How do they not see what's so great about it. I used hate HP and Twilight, but now I enjoy both for the quality Rifftraxs they provide. Not everything can be successful, but love what you love and that's a success in itself.

Uh, isn't this a valid reason not to like a film?

To keep this CHUD-specific for a moment, for me, SCOTT PILGRIM was my awakening. When THE DARK KNIGHT came out, there was an almost immediate backlash and mockery of folks who loved the film and the character. In fact, there was distinct mockery of people who had seen the film more than twice. And a lot of folks here wrote that the fans of the movie were making them hate the film.

I didn't get it at all - first, because I loved (and still love) the film and second, because I simply didn't expose myself to the really rabid idiots who were proclaiming it THE GREATEST FILM EVAR AND YOU SHOULD DIE OF RECTAL IMPETIGO IF YOU DISAGREE.

But I get it now, and I'm honestly a bit irritated at the free pass SCOTT PILGRIM fans seem to get. People are admitting to seeing the film 5+ times in the theater. Leaving it on to go to sleep to! And yet, because this was a property that the geek community (used inclusively and generally, not pejoratively) "owned" and IDed with, that sort of devotion is OK, whereas seeing TDK 3 times in the theater was sad/pathetic/a waste of time, etc.

The superlatives and adoration thrown at SCOTT PILGRIM here have, for the most part, led me to almost hate the film. It's a stupid, subjective and juvenile reaction, I know. And I've seen the film, and can still praise the elements in it which I think merit it. (And yes, utter lack of chemistry between leads is a valid criticism for a film that hinges on the relationship between said leads.)

But without wanting to toot my own horn too much, for the most part I've simply adopted a "YMMV" approach to PILGRIM (a few posts attempting relatively objective criticisms to the film aside). If y'all love it and want to keep on discussing it, it's no skin off my back. I can simply opt to not read the thread or not post, or remind myself it's just a movie and a bunch of strangers who love it. I don't understand why TDK fans here - not the whackos at SHH! or other boards - were pummeled for showing the exact kind of excitement and evangelism PILGRIM has been evoking since release.

On a wider scale - not CHUD-specific - I think a glance at some message boards answers the question in the original post. There was some well-deserved mockery from people who had gone waaaaay overboard on their love for AVATAR, for instance (people claiming despondency because they couldn't live on Pandora). And I think anyone who's constantly flogging a particular property or takes on the role of single-minded fan/proponent hurts the cause rather than helps it. When you lose objectivity - being able to understand why people may not care for it, or understanding it's simply not going to impact other people like it's impacted you - that's when you start crossing over into hurtful fandom.

I love a good dose of film evangelizing, and do it myself. But I really honestly try to do it only when I think the end user will benefit. By and large (and from my cheap seats; never saw an episode or the film) the browncoats came across as a selfish movement, first promoting/preaching to, then lashing out at, the unelightened. But their reasoning was always a self-serving one; they were terrified their "beloved property" was in danger of being cut off. They were promoting the film (again, largely) because THEY wanted more, and if they could beef up box office, the glittery promise of a sequel awaited them. Their desperation was off-putting and transparent, and I think that's a big part of why people turned their noses up at the whole thing. They made fandom, and by extension, their property, seem really unappealing.

I'm also willing to bet, Phil, that you don't ignore context clues that the person(s) to whom you're speaking are bored/offended/uninterested. I think everyone here at CHUD is a film evangelist, and that's not a bad thing. I've turned a number of folks on to movies like THE FOUNTAIN, KISS KISS BANG BANG, etc., thanks to pushing them. (The same for some TV shows on DVD.)

I think your caveat - with a good dose of self-awareness - is what's important. A reasonable fan/person takes the recipient's personality and tastes into account, as well as not wanting to be a one-note horn blower.

I've a good friend who lacks the self-awareness part. I've seen him at many social and business gatherings get a head of steam about a particular movie, director or TV show, and go on far past the point of reasonableness with people who don't come close to sharing his love of films and episodic TV. I think it's that inherent lack of consideration (a sort of naive selfishness, assuming everyone should like what you like and would, if they just gave it a chance) that's at the heart of fandom gone wrong.

That and, circa the actual lead up to the release of SERENITY, the self-identifying Browncoats went a step further in their self-service by actually becoming literal extensions of Universal's marketing strategy. That's what Devin was taling about when he called them the worst, if you remember. There was the points system that earned members of the Official Serenity Messageboard free swag if they promoted the film, the reports of five guys buying out entire theatres of showings and handing the tickets out to passerbys, "A Million Fans Can't Be Wrong" plastered on posters, banners, magazine covers...it got beyond excessive. And annoying.

This. When geeks latch onto a property (Firefly, Scott Pilgrim, Dark Knight, etc), statements like this are inevitable, and because its the internet, its likely going to aggravate somebody.

Phil, I think you're painting the Browncoats with a pretty wide brush there. Yes, there was a very vocal portion of them who simply wanted more of their beloved 'verse. But there were just as many who simply wanted people to know about a good show that really didn't get a fair shake from its network. Not comparing the quality, but what's the difference between a Browncoat saying, "It only got one season, but Firefly is a great show you should give a chance to" and someone saying, "It only got one season, but Terriers is a great show you should give a chance to"? Of course, you could argue that the more rational fans aren't really Browncoats, and that Terriers doesn't have a portion of its fanbase dressing up like Donal Logue and campaigning for more episodes or a feature film.

My attitude towards this kind of fandom is the same as my attitude towards the prequels: not expending any effort on them only heightens my enjoyment of the original property they're attached to. Some fanatic in a "Big Damn Heroes" t-shirt doesn't have squat to do with my enjoyment of Firefly, and if someone uses that fan to judge me, that's their problem, not mine.

I'm a huge fan of Firefly and have encouraged everyone from my father to students in my film class to watch it. That said, mocking people who don't like it or belittling their taste doesn't do anyone any good. It's intellectual bullying and it's off-putting. The run up to the release of Serenity was also amazingly off-putting. I went to a matinee in small town Saskatchewan just so I could avoid Browncoats.

But, why keep bringing it up? They were annoying but they've fallen off the face of the earth pretty much. There's very little evangelizing any more. Why do people insist on constantly bringing up Browncoats as an example of poorly behaved fanbases? It smack a little of superiority complex. "I may love *blank* but at least I'm not a Browncoat"

I don't think anyone had a problem with that attitude. The only flare-up that made its way into my peripheral vision was the really vocal people trying to get that opening weekend number up. And the people decrying them for it.

It's the only one for which I had anything approaching a theory, when asked why people have such disdain for a fanbase. The vocal extreme of Firefly fans had a demonstrably selfish quality that probably kept away new fans in droves. They were a turn-off. YMMV. Now that the thing is dead, they're not banging the "see the movie NOW!" drum as loudly, and are therefore no longer annoying. Except when they advocate Nathan Fillion starring in everything.

As for Dark Knight and Avatar fans, I don't have any solid theory beyond "it's fun to lose yourself in something", so I didn't go there.

You think Browncoats are bad? Try being the only guy in the UK who strongly dislikes Dr Who. The way the fanbase for that show apologises for all it's shortcomings is simply amazing.

MichaelM is the smartest person in this thread.

This is very true. The problem is that intense passion from a rabid fan base can make this very difficult, as MichaelM pointed out.

I totally understand this. It becomes so hard to discuss a film with intense fan bases (and its true for all these big geek properties) because if you aren't willing to concede that its cinematic perfection, then you're either nitpicking, or you have terrible taste, or you have no soul. Its frustrating and I can see how it casts the property itself in a negative light, even though it shouldn't.

It's definitely more understandable. It also turned off potential newcomers, something that doesn't enter into the Dark Knight or Avatar fanaticism, because everybody saw it already. So I was never making that comparison. Ultimately, I don't have an answer to your original post. Just thinking out loud.

And I agree that die-hard fans of TV properties have something more productive to do than fans of a movie (or movie franchise). The very existence of 11 Star Trek movies and four (!) spin-off/sequel series goes to show that fandom has wrought some wonderful things.

It's blind, hyperbolic loyalty and adoration that make me kind of crazy, whether it's for a movie or TV show, wherein every weakness can be explained away or dismissed, whether it's for BUFFY the series or SCOTT PILGRIM the movie. Nothing wrong with loving a movie or set of characters. Nothing wrong with choosing to watch them a lot (though of course there's the price of depriving yourself of other great filmed stories). But when you start arguing that a property has some sort of planned perfection and everyone should acknowledge it....time to put the DVD case down, go outside, and interact with the real world.

I think it's important to distinguish legitimate criticism from "hate" is important as well. I have no problem with people finding flaws in some of my favorite shows/movies; all I ask is that you respect my right to dispute it.

In short: it's just, like, your opinion, man.