The Best and Worst of Neo-Noir

LA Confidential?

or is that too easy.

John Dahl cornered the market on this genre for a while with RRW, The Last Seduction, Unforgettable and Joy Ride, and scraped both ends of the spectrum along the way. I actually thought Joy Ride was a fun little B noir, and it's been all but forgotten already.

I'm not sure Touch of Evil is a neo-noir. It might be one of the last of the original noirs. It has all the elements in place, anyway.

As for neo-noir, the first one that comes to mind is Point Blank.

I love Blood Simple. My favorite neo-noir might be Memento.

Just my opinion, Sketchy, but I think LA Confidential was set in a time it was just noir. Still a great noir film.

I like John Dahl, and I thought Joy Ride was a fun, derivative take on Duel and The Hitcher. But man, I giggle whenever I think of that guy saying "CANDY KAAAAAAAAANE" in his deep, processed voice.

That doesn't really matter. Chinatown was set in the same era, and it's neo-noir. It has less to do with when it was set then when it was made.

Memento's a great choice, by the way.

Memento and Dark City are my personal favorites, though the latter certainly has a lot of sci-fi elements in it. As does its obvious forebear Blade Runner.

Sin City's pretty good too.

Despite being labeled as a Pulp Fiction disciple upon release (a stigma it never really fully shook), THE USUAL SUSPECTS falls right into this category, and probably the best of the 90s (edit: Nope, LA Confidential. I'M SORRY I FORGOT LA CONFIDENTIAL). BRICK is another one, especially since it works both as a deconstruction and a straight up noir tale.

I've had a yearning for noir to come back in a big way; the way Hollywood is eating itself in the creative department, we seem primed for a French New Wave-style flood of new ideas...I hope. Expressionism and the kind of harsh contrast in setting and lighting that are noir staples are foundational influences for me, so naturally anything that brings more of this genre to newer generations is welcome to me.

Not welcome, however, are the films that use the language of noir in its aesthetic but forget the actual purpose. The stories are internal struggles, character journeys that travel to dark places and upturn the world we'd like to think is on our side, revealing the insects crawling underneath the rock we call our neighborhood, town, city. This is mainly directed at shit like The Spirit and Max Payne, which throws up the look but ditches the introspective.

And if we're going to use TOUCH OF EVIL as the divider line between noir and Neo-noir, then you owe it to yourself to track down BLAST OF SILENCE. Danger signs, Frankie.

Oh, I forgot this one. I love this film, really great.

Sin City doesn't count as Noir to me, it's not true noir, just pulp in a noir costume.

No one's cited a "worst" yet. My candidate among relatively recent neo-noirs is one none of you will remember until I say the title: Palmetto. In fact, I'm not sure I didn't imagine the film.

Ah, then LA Confidential is a great choice too.

It's silly, but it's over the top like Richard Widmark was over the top. You're laughing but you're reveling in it. I was, anyway.

You can say it's a minor film and you'd be right, but so much great noir was exactly that (Dahl included; Unforgettable was a higher profile project and he choked). I kind of like when noir is unafraid of having somewhat disreputable roots.

To that end, Payback. (But not the Kiss of Death remake.)

I would actually vote Sin City, because it's confused most people as to what noir really is. Great film, bad noir.

There aren't many "Worst" immediately springing to mind, but most disappointing in recent years to me is HOLLYWOODLAND. Great-to-pretty-good performances for the most part (with Affleck the Older standing out), but a confused, muddled script hampering it at every turn. THE BLACK DHALIA is similarly frustrating (and not just because of that shot where DePalma almost lets ScarJo drop the robe).

Wait, yeah, there is a worst: THE TWO JAKES. I mean, being a sequel to one of the best films ever is already handicapping you, but did it also have to be so goddamn boring?

Dare I say Wild Things? I thought it was a hoot and a half, anyway.

Does "Cutter's Way" count? Because I'd slip that right in with Night Moves, The Long Goodbye, and Chinatown. Totally underrated and awesome movie.

Or: bad film, bad noir.

This was a great year for the genre, by the way. The Australian movie The Square is a tremendously underrated neo-noir. It came out there in 2008 but we didn't get it until this year. And of course The Ghost Writer and A Prophet.

Miami Blues is another one of my favorites.

Treat yourself to The Zero Effect. A very cool take on Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe. Great lead performance by Bill Pullman.

Payback is so frustrating for me. I love the first half and despise how it ends. I don't even like the director's cut ending. So much potential.

That movie hurts to think about. So much potential, so much behind-the-scenes angst (Robert Evans wanting to play the Keitel part, etc.), so little energy or reason to exist.

Yeouch. To be fair, my fondness towards it has diminished since I started watching real Noir.

Oh yeah, Brick. Does Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang count as neo-noir?

To the extent that David Lynch can be classified as anything, a lot of his stuff would fall under the neo-noir label (and then fall right out again). Particularly Lost Highway and Blue Velvet. Of course, they're also horror and porn and rock musicals and German underwater parkour and whatever the fuck.

Wild Things is a trashy blast. I kind of enjoy elements of The Ice Harvest. I remember the My Year of Flops article from not too long ago really summing up my feelings on that one.

My favorite underrated neo-noir is one of my favorite Soderbergh movies that I feel like barely anyone sees: The Underneath. I absolutely love it to pieces. When and if he retires, this is the movie that might make me miss him the most.

The Grifters has to be mentioned, of course.

One False Move: that one kept me riveted until the very last shot.

Also, it's totally over the top and kind of retarded plot wise, but it's so stylistically ballsy that I gotta give a shout-out to Dead Again. I can't help it, it's got HItchcock on the brain.

Also, formulaic as hell, but I kinda I love No Way Out...Costner's bland performance and all.

KISS KISS BANG BANG counts, with the asterisk that it's a deconstruction film that is also spending equal amounts of energy focused on taking apart the buddy formula.

Also counting: GONE BABY GONE, and to another extent, THE TOWN.

Although there's a dividing line question that springs up when taking into account stuff like THE TOWN: at what point do we move it from Neo-noir to just gangster film? Is GOODFELLAS Neo-noir, or is it just a crime film? Similarly, THE DEPARTED or CASINO?

One could make a case for AFTER HOURS being neo-noir, now that my mind is on Scorsese.

Bill Murray lifted it up to a higher level of fun. That and the fact that the movie is still working out its plot while the end credits roll.

Speaking of Soderbergh neo-noir: The Limey.

And Kafka, though that should really go in the Your Irrational Favorites thread.

Straying from Soderbergh, I have a soft spot for Wolfgang Petersen's Shattered ("Kniiights in white satiiiiin..."), and Oliver Stone's U-Turn is an amusing stylistic jerk-off with a hellacious John Huston reincarnation by Nick Nolte.

Oh, and The Friends of Eddie Coyle, which farts on The Town's dinner, and Ben Affleck would most likely agree that it does.

Walter Hill's The Driver is a nifty little neo-noir, it has one of the most thrilling car chases ever made.

Michael Mann's Thief is an absolutely superb neo-noir and a great character study.

And you're still wrong, because MILLER'S CROSSING BITCHES.

Not nearly enough Coens in this thread. Practically every second movie of theirs is neo-noir. Including The Big Lebowski, oddly enough.

I really like the Clint Eastwood directed and starring A Perfect World. Kevin Costner is great as the bad guy on the run with a young boy in his car.

Worst Neo-Noir: Sin City. Sin City works as a comic because the art is great, but as a movie, it sounds like what it is, a bad imitation of (the not very good) novelist Mickey Spillane on steroids.

Other contender for worst: The recent straight to video Give 'em Hell, Malone, which is a shame, because Tom Jane is pretty decent in it.

Is it a stretch to consider WINTER'S BONE a neo-noir? I kind of feel that it is.

Also, JULIA with Tilda Swinton is a criminally underseen gem.

It's not. In fact, it's a great unconventional detective story. The novel is great.

Yeah, I'd say Winter's Bone has neo-noir trappings though. It's on the outskirts of the genre, but I think it counts.

Julia is a great choice. That movie is fantastic. I don't really think of it as a noir, but it absolutely counts. It's just one of those movies that seems to overshadow it's own genre with its greatness.

I'm calling DEEP COVER a neo-noir, and I've got a punch to the back of the hand for anyone who disagrees.

Hand? Sissy.

Hard Eight is a really good neo-noir drama, Phillip Baker Ball turns in a hell of a performance.

Good choice!

I'd like to throw The Man Who Wasn't There, The Ice Harvest and Bound into the mix.

"Man" is more traditional in a way. "Ice Harvest" tends to skew towards comedy but it leans well into noir territoty. And "Bound" just oozes it's noir influences. Also oozing in the movie, Jennifer Tilly. Ask Gina Gershon's hand.

Would Fargo and A Simple Plan belong here? Pretty grim morality plays.

Wayne Kramer's The Cooler, William H.Macy is the put upon downer of a hero. Maria Bello the femme fatale and Alec Baldwin is awesome as a ruthless casino owner. This film seems to have been forgotten, I think it got some awards recognition if memory serves?

Also Constantine..........would love a sequel to this movie.

PURPLE NOON, the first and best of the Tom Ripley films, and two other Alain Delon vehicles: JOY HOUSE (in b&w, based on a Day Keene novel and scripted by pulp writer Charles Williams) and DIABOLICALLY YOURS.

MADE IN U.S.A., Godard's parody of a Richard Stark novel and more along the lines of deconstruction.

AFTER DARK, MY SWEET, the moodiest and most faithful of the Jim Thompson boom.

Walter Hill's LAST MAN STANDING, boldly mixing film noir with Hollywood westerns and gangster pics. Earlier Hill projects would fit (someone mentioned THE DRIVER).

Truffaut's CONFIDENTIALLY YOURS!
MONA LISA
KILL ME AGAIN (John Dahl again)

Yeah, even though it's not my fave Hill I always liked the genre blending going on in that one (and just for fun, he threw in some wicked Hong Kong style blasting action too). Good mention.

Speaking of Hong Kong: Alfred Cheung's fantastic On the Run, starring Yuen Biao. Best HK noir ever.

Robert Benton: you've got his old-fart-as-protagonist tributes like The Late Show and Twilight, but my personal fave is his noirish American giallo Still of the Night.

And it's not to be taken seriously, but gotta love Armand Assante getting his Hammer on in the Larry Cohen scripted Sleazenoir classic I, the Jury

Yep. No actor alive more suited to these things than Billy Bob Thornton. Just his face alone is perfect (thinking of that shot of him taking a drag and staring miserably out the barber shop window)

What about those movies that know the words but deliberately change the music?

"I hadn't seen a body like that since I solved the case of the murdered girl with the big tits."

I haven't seen On The Run in such a long time, I remember it being bleak as hell and spectacularly brutal, Yuen Biao has some seriously dark shit hiding in him. Speaking of HK neo-noir, I'll throw in Johnnie To's Mad Detective, which really should be seen more.

What is neo-noir then? All movies noir but with color? Noir movies made after the 50s until now? The term feels too expansive for me. I'd argue that CHINATOWN and NIGHT MOVES, movies created by people reared in black and white noir but interested in injecting grit, realism, and unexpected locales to the proceedings is its own sub-genre. Then stuff in the 80s and 90s, RED ROCK WEST, BODY HEAT, and LA CONFIDENTIAL, have their own feel to them, the sex being more open and other conventions being more modern. Then you have stuff from this decade like WINTER'S BONE and BRICK, which have their own flavor, bucking conventions created just previously, to create their own weirdly distorted versions of noir.

I guess my point is that trying to corral 60s years of movies into one genre doesn't feel exactly right.

EDIT: To clarify what exactly I was saying.

I quite like Walter Hill's Johnny Handsome, it's not earth shattering, but I think Rourke is beautifully understated in it, and more people should check it out.

The last time I saw Dennis Hopper's The Hot Spot I was not impressed at all, but I might have to give it another shot to see if it's memorable beyond Virginia Madsen and Jennifer Connelly getting naked.

Infernal Affairs, The Yakuza, Nowhere to Hide, Maiku Hama, some of my favourites.

From what I understand, 1958's "Touch of Evil" is widely considered the last official noir picture, but a case could be made that 1959's "Odds Against Tomorrow" (starring Harry Belafonte) really holds the title. After the '50s, studio movies shifted more towards color and widescreen formats, abandoning some of the aesthetics that made something a true noir picture. Ever since, films that have adopted the storytelling conventions and visual grammar of the noir are considered "neo" noir pictures.

And the Wesley Snipes classic, Boiling Point.

Neo-noir features classic noir trappings mixed with modern techniques and themes. Chinatown looks and feels like a classic noir, but it's influenced by the political corruption from the 60's and 70's. Classic noir was more influenced by post World War fears and insecurities. It'd be impossible for anyone to make a movie today that's influenced directly from WWII. In some way (whether they know it or not) they'd be referencing modern warfare and the modern political climate (take The Good German, for example; which wants so badly to be a classic noir but fails on many levels).

We're also being awfully expansive. There are sub-genres, just like any genre has sub-genres (screwball comedy, slapstick, satire, etc). So there's detective neo-noir, sci-fi neo-noir, lovers on the run neo-noir, etc.

Why? Most genres have been around longer than 60 years.