CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › DEMOCRATIC ARIZONA CONGRESSWOMAN SHOT BY GUNMAN
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

DEMOCRATIC ARIZONA CONGRESSWOMAN SHOT BY GUNMAN - Page 7

post #301 of 349

Ady, there are documented cases of followers of right wing celebrities like Glenn Beck taking shots at people or institutions that have been demonized/fearmongered by the right.  The man who shot two cops on his way to the Tides Foundation said Glenn Beck was his "teacher."  The mother of the guy who wanted to kill Nancy Pelosi and "all the liberals" said that the shooter was under Glenn Beck's spell.  And the guy who shot up the Holocaust Museum had books by Michael Savage and Sean Hannity at home.  The man who shot Dr. Tiller corresponds with Bill O'Reilly's "Tiller the Babykiller" chant (which evidently he repeated 30 times).  Even before the tragic shooting, Gabrielle Giffords's office had been shot at after the infamous gun sights and "don't retreat, reload"/"Second Amendment Remedies"/"armed and dangerous" rhetoric from right wing politicians.  Not to mention the Congressman whose brother's gas lines were cut on instruction from one right wing talker.

 

Can you name one instance where someone on the left has taken shots at someone on the right? 

 

On the other subject, I thought Obama's speech really was a moment of light for the country, a moving and heart-felt tribute, and one of the speeches of his life.  Incredible. 

post #302 of 349

It's backhanded and the tone is bitchy and all that, but this give me the slimmest, SLIMMEST possible hope that maybe, just maybe, pretty please, can we work together? Please? 

 

 

 

Quote:
"Last night, the president said what he should have said on Saturday," Beck said. "A leader says that on Day 1. But it is truly better late than never. This is probably the best speech he has ever given, and with all sincerity, thank you Mr. President, for becoming the president of the UnitedStates of America last night."

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/13/glenn-beck-obama-memorial-speech_n_808646.html

 

Actually, the more I look at it...that's even worse then outright criticizing him. Goddamnitt. Nevermind. 

post #303 of 349
Thread Starter 

Obama did issue a statement on Saturday, but he didn't give that speech because not all the facts were in and we didn't know who yet had lived and who had died. The family members were with their loved ones in a hospital, not looking to attend a public gathering

post #304 of 349
Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd View Post

 

Quote:

"Last night, the president said what he should have said on Saturday," Beck said. "A leader says that on Day 1. But it is truly better late than never. This is probably the best speech he has ever given, and with all sincerity, thank you Mr. President, for becoming the president of the United States of America last night."

Actually, the more I look at it...that's even worse then outright criticizing him. Goddamnitt. Nevermind. 


Yeah, insulting Obama while wrapping himself up in the post-speech glow is disingenuity at it's most acrid. Despicable.

post #305 of 349

I hope all the "Gee, lets let this all play out so we don't seem foolish" crowd is enjoying watching the right employing its soldiers and trying its hardest to defame the President's eloquent and heartfelt  speech.

 

"Tee shirts". OMG!!!

 

"Applause". OMG!!!

 

It's been joked before that Obama could say that the daytime sky is blue, and conservatives would point out clouds.

 

Yeah, let's keep that bipartisanship a-rollin'. BOTH SIDES DO IT, DAMMIT!

 

post #306 of 349

What exactly is your point Jacob?  We knew what their reaction would be, that doesn't mean we ought to be just as stupid and reactionary.

post #307 of 349

Aside from Kate, *who* on the left is being just as stupid and reactionary? On the Democratic side you've got a handful of messageboard posters. on the Republican side you've got a tone of politicians, politician's aides, talk show hosts and the presumptive Republican presidental nominee for 2012. Once again: fuck this false equivalency.

post #308 of 349

Take a look at the t-shirts they gave out.  Now look at a University of Arizona t-shirt.  Wow.  Blue background.  White letters with red and blue in them.  Why, it's almost as if the shirts reflected the venue at which the event was being held!

post #309 of 349

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/13/palin-targeted-tweets-following-arizona-shooting-massacre/?test=latestnews

 

But but but violent rhetoric is completely harmless! The sheer oblvious audacity of Fox continues to astound me.

post #310 of 349

What I just don't understand is WHY Americans are so in love with guns.  No matter how many school shootings.  No matter how many spree killings.  No matter how many people have been and continue to be murdered by guns on a daily basis.  No matter how much other industrialized nations' murder rate by guns pales in comparison to the US, it see'ms that there is never any serious self reflection by a large portion of this nation.  It just boggles my mind. 

post #311 of 349

Yeah, ever tried to get an insanely large population of people to just take a step back and reflect on something like that? It's... impossible. It takes massive and terrible tragedies to cause that, and even then it usually doesn't stick. 

post #312 of 349

I dunno, 9/11 managed to send half the country batshit insane with terror. That stuck pretty good.

post #313 of 349

On the flip side, I'm pretty sure that no one in this thread--certainly not me--suggested that we ought to sit on our hands and do zilch. Or that there was no way that right-wing rhetoric was responsible. It definitely played a part, but not as obvious and direct a part as a lot of people apparently wanted it to, and I thought it was a bit silly to be saying so mere hours after the shooting, before we knew much of anything. Since then it's been a war of spin, one that, for once, the right is arguably losing--I'd argue that the mere fact that Palin (in particular) is so heavily on the defensive means that the accusations are sticking to her, and makes her look bad in the public sphere. But the situation is more complex than that, and I would indeed argue that there's a wrong way to go about blaming this on the right. As Fred Clarke says in that post I linked to, it's not "violent rhetoric" so much as the more serious underlying assertions that go along with that rhetoric. Attacking the superficial language of the right is the kind of thing that can end up backfiring, since everyone does indeed use that kind of language. And trying to pin Loughner with whatever politics are convenient for your argument is probably not going to work either, since the guy was so obviously a space cadet. (Ironically, there have already been plenty of much MUCH clearer examples of violent right-wing politics being linked to spree killings--Byron Williams, James von Brunn--but they apparently don't have the cachet of shooting a Congresswoman.)

 

Apparently the majority are rejecting the idea that the heated political rhetoric set off Loughner. I don't know if I trust the polls at this point, and people might change their mind, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with engaging in a war of spin.

 

Look, you just have to take for granted these days that everything is going to be crassly and tastelessly spun by the extreme right punditocracy, and yes, this might be a potential "silver bullet" to help weaken them. But you have to aim the bullet. In the immediate wake of the shooting I saw people on the left rushing to spin the hell out of this, in ways that weren't necessarily accurate, in a disturbingly right-wing kinda way. I don't want the left to win the argument because they fought idiotic fire with fire. I want them to win because they're RIGHT.

 

In the days since I think the argument has gotten more thoughtful and insightful, but I worry that initial rush to judgment is going to come back and bite the left on the ass.

post #314 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent of Chaos View Post

What I just don't understand is WHY Americans are so in love with guns.  No matter how many school shootings.  No matter how many spree killings.  No matter how many people have been and continue to be murdered by guns on a daily basis.  No matter how much other industrialized nations' murder rate by guns pales in comparison to the US, it see'ms that there is never any serious self reflection by a large portion of this nation.  It just boggles my mind. 



 I'm no gun nut. Never owned a gun, don't want to own a gun. But to answer your question: Shooting is fun. Hitting a target is satisfying. I enjoy going to ranges and trying out different types of guns. It's fun.

post #315 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syd View Post

It's backhanded and the tone is bitchy and all that, but this give me the slimmest, SLIMMEST possible hope that maybe, just maybe, pretty please, can we work together? Please? 


 

To state the obvious, Beck's not a politician, and both sides working together renders him obsolete. He starts getting reasonable, he's out of a job.

post #316 of 349

In the spirit of working together, can we all agree to spell Tucson properly from now on? I know it's incredibly petty but I can't believe that even after this terrible event people are still spelling it Tuscon. Have pity on Tucsonans, we've suffered enough!

post #317 of 349
Thread Starter 
post #318 of 349

Tucson:

 

Geography-ArizonaMap.png&sa=X&ei=zacwTZzkLJG-sAOIuLmsBQ&ved=0CAQQ8wc4hwE&usg=AFQjCNEtPJsChqB6v-n0a1PHNX6q_mHN5Q

 

Tuscon:

 

Tusken%2520Raider.jpg&sa=X&ei=-6cwTf3EII68sAOAy8SsBQ&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNFi4QpZ1Jdt8VINpAzCrUv9oJ4vGQ

post #319 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

In the immediate wake of the shooting I saw people on the left rushing to spin the hell out of this, in ways that weren't necessarily accurate, in a disturbingly right-wing kinda way. I don't want the left to win the argument because they fought idiotic fire with fire. I want them to win because they're RIGHT.

 

In the days since I think the argument has gotten more thoughtful and insightful, but I worry that initial rush to judgment is going to come back and bite the left on the ass.

 

Personally, I have seen very little spin coming from the progressive side of the aile on this.  Spin implies twisting or falsifying the truth to suit one's interests; I think the implications of this shooting and the environment in which it occurred are impossible to ignore for most reasonable folks.

 

Certain conservatives, on the other hand, have been spinning like crazy to deny what to most people is obvious:  The language being used by some conservative politicians and tea party activists has been getting really crazy in the last year.  Reasonable people have called for the rhetoric to be cooled down.  Giffords herself made this plea.

 

I don't know what specifically motivated the killer, and I don't think his politics are particularly important now.  The deed is done, and even if he did it for completely apolitical reasons, he didn't act in a vacuum.  Other extremists were openly delivering death threats to this woman.  In that environment killing a senator, for whatever reason, might start to seem like a good idea to the unhinged mind.

 

Crazy people with violent signs will always be with us.  We had them during the Bush years, we have them now.  However, any politicians and media personalities who suggest second amendment solutions need to stop...and it probably will stop for a while.  

 

I think everybody can see the expedience in cooling things down a notch.  We're still allowed to hate and yell at each other, we just can't ask for the other side to be killed.

post #320 of 349

Taking the high road and encouraging a general increase in civility is probably the best thing the left can do here. I think (and hope) the right has been damaged by what happened and how they dealt with it, and I suspect anyone who continues with the aggressive rhetoric will only hurt how they are perceived. But Laughner's politics were muddled and he was a certifiable nutjob (anyone read his posts on the conspiracy forum? Half the time the guy literally couldn't string a coherent thought together). Trying to pin blame for his actions on one specific potential influence above any number of others just opens the door for accusations of unfairness and opportunistic point scoring, and I'm not sure those accusations would even be incorrect. I mean, so far has there actually been anything to suggest the guy paid attention to Fox news etc?

post #321 of 349

Best moments of Palin's speech.

post #322 of 349

That video is creepy, even more so if you close your eyes. I had to put it in the Benny Hill-ifier to get the oral sounds out of my head.

 

The teleprompter is even more noticeable up close.

post #323 of 349

Text of President Obama's speech.

 

This excerpt seems relevant for this thread:

 

 

Quote:

For the truth is that none of us can know exactly what triggered this vicious attack. None of us can know with any certainty what might have stopped those shots from being fired, or what thoughts lurked in the inner recesses of a violent man's mind.

 

So yes, we must examine all the facts behind this tragedy. We cannot and will not be passive in the face of such violence. We should be willing to challenge old assumptions in order to lessen the prospects of violence in the future.

 

But what we can't do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on one another. As we discuss these issues, let each of us do so with a good dose of humility. Rather than pointing fingers or assigning blame, let us use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations, to listen to each other more carefully, to sharpen our instincts for empathy, and remind ourselves of all the ways our hopes and dreams are bound together.

 

<snip>

 

The loss of these wonderful people should make every one of us strive to be better in our private lives - to be better friends and neighbors, co-workers and parents. And if, as has been discussed in recent days, their deaths help usher in more civility in our public discourse, let's remember that it is not because a simple lack of civility caused this tragedy, but rather because only a more civil and honest public discourse can help us face up to our challenges as a nation, in a way that would make them proud. It should be because we want to live up to the example of public servants like John Roll and Gabby Giffords, who knew first and foremost that we are all Americans, and that we can question each other's ideas without questioning each other's love of country, and that our task, working together, is to constantly widen the circle of our concern so that we bequeath the American dream to future generations.

 

I believe we can be better. Those who died here, those who saved lives here - they help me believe. We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us. I believe that for all our imperfections, we are full of decency and goodness, and that the forces that divide us are not as strong as those that unite us.

post #324 of 349
Thread Starter 

Excellent Boston Globe editorial: BAY STATE SANITY

 

 

Quote:
 

 

Not often enough does anyone say this around these parts, but thank God for Massachusetts. Thank God for our elected leaders. Thank God they have the will and the wisdom to stand up to the National Rifle Association and impose some sane restrictions on gun ownership in this state.

 

Anyone need look only at the profoundly disturbing photograph of Jared Loughner on the front page of every major newspaper in America yesterday, with those thin lips curled into a demonic smile, to know that no way, no how should that man ever hold the business end of any kind of gun.

 

In Massachusetts, he wouldn’t have, not legally. In Massachusetts, he wouldn’t have been able to buy the high-capacity magazine that allowed him to fire 33 bullets from his Glock 19 in one swoop, because it is illegal, unlike in Arizona.

 

In Massachusetts, he wouldn’t have been able to walk into a store, flash an ID, and buy a gun, as he did in Arizona, no permit required.

Massachusetts law requires a prospective gun owner seeking a permit to apply to the local police chief, complete a gun safety training course, and submit three letters of recommendation. The department conducts a background check that includes criminal and mental health records. All of this can take weeks.

 

“With his history, no way could he have passed a background check in Massachusetts,’’ said John Rosenthal, the normally mild-mannered businessman and founder of the Boston-based Stop Handgun Violence, who was seething on the phone yesterday for reasons we’ll get to in a moment.

 

There’s more. Massachusetts then requires all guns to be registered in a state database; Arizona does not. Massachusetts requires all guns not in the immediate control of their owners to have a safety lock; Arizona does not.

 

Here’s the result of these kinds of laws: Massachusetts had 3.51 gun deaths per 100,000 residents in 2007, the third fewest of any state in the nation; Arizona had 14.95, the seventh most. Arizona loves its guns, and guns cause death — in this case, that of a federal judge, a 9-year-old girl, and four others.

post #325 of 349

Sarah Palin is proof that believing in creationism leads to ignorance

post #326 of 349

RAPTURE...is actually the point at which GOD makes these assholes disappear...and we can get on with shit.

post #327 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post

Yeah, ever tried to get an insanely large population of people to just take a step back and reflect on something like that? It's... impossible. It takes massive and terrible tragedies to cause that, and even then it usually doesn't stick. 



Just saw this which illustrates this much better than I can (granted, it's about rhetoric and not guns, per se, but still):

 

http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-it-going-to-take-way-more-than-an-inconceiv,18816/?utm_source=morenews

post #328 of 349

Shorter Sarah Palin: "Wah wah wah it's all about me wah wah wah 'blood libel' means what I say it means wah wah" SHUT. THE FUCK. UP.

post #329 of 349

Read the comments on this piece of news: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/18/bomb-found-on-mlk-day-parade-route_n_810735.html

 

At least at the margins, the left is indeed as retarded as the right.  We've had violent racists in this country looooong before Fox News.

post #330 of 349

I'm not sure why you're so hellbent on proving some kind of non-existent equivalency here. Of course there are loons on the left who say absurd, outrageous, violent stuff. The point is, THEY'RE NOT THE VISIBLE HEADS OF THE PARTY. There aren't mass rallies of lefty activists brandishing poorly-spelled signs and weapons whilst a Democratic politician talks about secession and revolution and the right to bear arms up on the podium.

post #331 of 349

ha.  I'm not sure why you're reading into my comments (particularly prior comments, as "hellbent" seems to indicate) an attempt to prove "equivalency".  I'm not.  Furthermore, violence has nothing to do with it.  There's no doubt conservatives consistently go to a darker, more dangerous place.  My point is a subtler, "people are simply fucking retarded and it's depressing".

post #332 of 349
Thread Starter 

Since the CHUD-munity(c) doesn't seem interested in hearing it from me, here is my criticism of the speech in Tucson via Niall O'Dowd on the HUFFPO:

 

 

 

Quote:

What Obama Should Have Said In Tucson But Lacked The Courage To

 

 

My friends we live in a country where a mentally deranged man may have access to a firearm and ammunition as easily as he may access getting a license for his dog. We have been afraid for too long to address the consequences of this. How many more Virginia Techs or Tucsons will it take before we wake up to the reality? This is not about finger pointing, it is about seriously disturbed individuals getting access to firearms.

It is not even about violent rhetoric. Actually it comes down to one key point. If you think it is okay for a delusional loner as in the Virginia Tech and Tucson killings to have free access to guns then don't hear me out. But if you agree with me then you know it is like offering a book of matches to an arsonist, a bottle of Scotch whiskey to an alcoholic .

How many more 9-year old girls or innocent students have to die while we refuse to discuss this elephant in the room? We are not even talking about banning guns, just taking sensible precautions to ensure that maniacs do not get access to them.

Some immediate practical steps would surely include a 24-hour waiting period while every applicant is checked out by state and local police as well as the FBI. This should be the law of the land. Such a waiting period and background check would surely have prevented the Tucson massacre.

If we hire a gardener or nanny we make background checks. If we hire a new employee we seek references. Should the act of buying a gun, a lethal weapon, be any less open to scrutiny? Of course not and that is a practical hard headed reality. Yet is is one we seem afraid to embrace and to face up to.

I challenge leaders on both sides in Congress to introduce such a bill in the coming weeks. This is not some slippery slope to taking guns away, it is a practical, real life decision that as far as we can ensure, psychopaths should not have access to weapons.

And then parents of little nine-year-old girls can live their lives, free of the fear that some madman can kill their daughter.

Thank you.

 

post #333 of 349

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/01/19/133045897/mark-kelly-rep-giffords-progress-is-great-but-road-to-recovery-is-long

 

This is incredible for Gabriel Giffords.  I just wanted to ingest something positive in this thread.

post #334 of 349

Ingest? Are you hungry? You might want to inject some food in your stomach then. :P

post #335 of 349



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post

Since the CHUD-munity(c) doesn't seem interested in hearing it from me, here is my criticism of the speech in Tucson via Niall O'Dowd on the HUFFPO:

 

 

 

 

Quote:

What Obama Should Have Said In Tucson But Lacked The Courage To

 

 

My friends we live in a country where a mentally deranged man may have access to a firearm and ammunition as easily as he may access getting a license for his dog. We have been afraid for too long to address the consequences of this. How many more Virginia Techs or Tucsons will it take before we wake up to the reality? This is not about finger pointing, it is about seriously disturbed individuals getting access to firearms.

It is not even about violent rhetoric. Actually it comes down to one key point. If you think it is okay for a delusional loner as in the Virginia Tech and Tucson killings to have free access to guns then don't hear me out. But if you agree with me then you know it is like offering a book of matches to an arsonist, a bottle of Scotch whiskey to an alcoholic .

How many more 9-year old girls or innocent students have to die while we refuse to discuss this elephant in the room? We are not even talking about banning guns, just taking sensible precautions to ensure that maniacs do not get access to them.

Some immediate practical steps would surely include a 24-hour waiting period while every applicant is checked out by state and local police as well as the FBI. This should be the law of the land. Such a waiting period and background check would surely have prevented the Tucson massacre.

If we hire a gardener or nanny we make background checks. If we hire a new employee we seek references. Should the act of buying a gun, a lethal weapon, be any less open to scrutiny? Of course not and that is a practical hard headed reality. Yet is is one we seem afraid to embrace and to face up to.

I challenge leaders on both sides in Congress to introduce such a bill in the coming weeks. This is not some slippery slope to taking guns away, it is a practical, real life decision that as far as we can ensure, psychopaths should not have access to weapons.

And then parents of little nine-year-old girls can live their lives, free of the fear that some madman can kill their daughter.

Thank you.

 



 What an incredibly bad speech to have said that day. I don't disagree with a lot of this, but Obama gave a historic speech, giving relief to a lot of people feeling immense grief.

 

And The Huffington Post? Again? Sing a new tune, Kate.

post #336 of 349

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diva View Post

Ingest? Are you hungry? You might want to inject some food in your stomach then. :P

Whoops!  I still thinks it's freaking incredible how she is doing after this. 

 

post #337 of 349

It truly is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit.

post #338 of 349

Can I ask something, I heard this big push of "we should stop people with mental disorders get handguns.  If there were laws like that the shootings would not of occured".  Ok, I haven't heard anything showing that Loughner would have been stopped from buying the gun if such a program existed.  While many of his personal friends may have noted his poor mental state there would of probably been nothing on a public state or federal record that would of stated he had mental problems.  At most the record would of shown that he had used drugs and been involved in petty vandalism.  Two cases that were dismissed because Loughner was aware enough to go to programs for those offences.  Even if the cases were not dismissed, not exactly the "well we can't let someone who used drugs as a teen have a gun, what and he defaced a street sign, thats it no way he gets a gun".

 

How exaclty would of a background check stopped this guy.

post #339 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post

Since the CHUD-munity(c) doesn't seem interested in hearing it from me, here is my criticism of the speech in Tucson via Niall O'Dowd on the HUFFPO:

 

 

 

 

Quote:

What Obama Should Have Said In Tucson But Lacked The Courage To

 

 

My friends we live in a country where a mentally deranged man may have access to a firearm and ammunition as easily as he may access getting a license for his dog. We have been afraid for too long to address the consequences of this. How many more Virginia Techs or Tucsons will it take before we wake up to the reality? This is not about finger pointing, it is about seriously disturbed individuals getting access to firearms.

It is not even about violent rhetoric. Actually it comes down to one key point. If you think it is okay for a delusional loner as in the Virginia Tech and Tucson killings to have free access to guns then don't hear me out. But if you agree with me then you know it is like offering a book of matches to an arsonist, a bottle of Scotch whiskey to an alcoholic .

How many more 9-year old girls or innocent students have to die while we refuse to discuss this elephant in the room? We are not even talking about banning guns, just taking sensible precautions to ensure that maniacs do not get access to them.

Some immediate practical steps would surely include a 24-hour waiting period while every applicant is checked out by state and local police as well as the FBI. This should be the law of the land. Such a waiting period and background check would surely have prevented the Tucson massacre.

If we hire a gardener or nanny we make background checks. If we hire a new employee we seek references. Should the act of buying a gun, a lethal weapon, be any less open to scrutiny? Of course not and that is a practical hard headed reality. Yet is is one we seem afraid to embrace and to face up to.

I challenge leaders on both sides in Congress to introduce such a bill in the coming weeks. This is not some slippery slope to taking guns away, it is a practical, real life decision that as far as we can ensure, psychopaths should not have access to weapons.

And then parents of little nine-year-old girls can live their lives, free of the fear that some madman can kill their daughter.

Thank you.

 

All this "speech" would have done is set back any hope of further gun control laws (not to mention make Obama an absolute pariah and go against everything he says he is).  Idiotic.

post #340 of 349

This sums up exactly how I feel. As such, this will be last ever post on Palin. F that woman.

post #341 of 349

Here we go. Again, this shit does not go out into a vacuum.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQcvbw6ExTQ

 

But hey, everybody loves context:

 

"Just because you in Washington and you who are so out of touch with life in the media, just because you don't believe in anything doesn't mean nobody else does. We do. You know why you're confused by this show? It's because I believe in something. You don't. Tea parties believe in small government. We believe in returning to the principles of our Founding Fathers. We respect them. We revere them. Shoot me in the head before I stop talking about the Founders. Shoot me in the head if you try to change our government. I will stand against you and so will millions of others. We believe in something. You in the media and most in Washington don't. The radicals that you and Washington have co-opted and brought in wearing sheep's clothing — change the pose. You will get the ends. You've been using them? They believe in communism. They believe and have called for a revolution. You're going to have to shoot them in the head. But warning, they may shoot you. They are dangerous because they believe. Karl Marx is their George Washington. You will never change their mind. And if they feel you have lied to them — they're revolutionaries. Nancy Pelosi, those are the people you should be worried about. Here is my advice when you're dealing with people who believe in something that strongly — you take them seriously. You listen to their words and you believe that they will follow up with what they say."

 

Which just goes to show: Loughner by no means holds a monopoly on dangerous gibberish in this awful spectacle.

post #342 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekT View Post

Can I ask something, I heard this big push of "we should stop people with mental disorders get handguns.  If there were laws like that the shootings would not of occured".  Ok, I haven't heard anything showing that Loughner would have been stopped from buying the gun if such a program existed.  While many of his personal friends may have noted his poor mental state there would of probably been nothing on a public state or federal record that would of stated he had mental problems.  At most the record would of shown that he had used drugs and been involved in petty vandalism.  Two cases that were dismissed because Loughner was aware enough to go to programs for those offences.  Even if the cases were not dismissed, not exactly the "well we can't let someone who used drugs as a teen have a gun, what and he defaced a street sign, thats it no way he gets a gun".

 

How exaclty would of a background check stopped this guy.

They should've checked this guy's youtube page before giving him a gun. 

post #343 of 349

Holy shit why isn't that Beck clip on every fucking news channel right now? If Olbermann had said something similar before something like this shooting had occured Fox would probably incorporate the fucking thing into their logo.

post #344 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekT View Post

 

How exaclty would of a background check stopped this guy.


There should be a multi-tiered system of background checks, at the very least. Like, let's say you want to buy a musket: then the two-day waiting period is fine. But if you want to buy a Glock semi-automatic with an extended clip - the sort of gun that was regulated by the Assault Weapons Ban - then you should have to undergo a pretty serious and thorough background check: the kind you would have to submit to if you wanted to, say, get a car loan or something. Maybe force him to get a co-signer. Yeah, I think having to get a co-signer on a semi-automatic weapon is a good idea. I'm 99.9% certain no one would have co-signed for Loughner's crazy ass.

post #345 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekT View Post

 

How exaclty would of a background check stopped this guy.


There should be a multi-tiered system of background checks, at the very least. Like, let's say you want to buy a musket: then the two-day waiting period is fine. But if you want to buy a Glock semi-automatic with an extended clip - the sort of gun that was regulated by the Assault Weapons Ban - then you should have to undergo a pretty serious and thorough background check: the kind you would have to submit to if you wanted to, say, get a car loan or something. Maybe force him to get a co-signer. Yeah, I think having to get a co-signer on a semi-automatic weapon is a good idea. I'm 99.9% certain no one would have co-signed for Loughner's crazy ass.

 

100% agreed. Responsible gun-owners that aren't out for blood should have no problem at all jumping through all kinds of hoops to get their precious kill-tool.
 

post #346 of 349

 

Quote:
the sort of gun that was regulated by the Assault Weapons Ban

just a nitpick, the gun wouldn't have been banned under the AWB, the magazine would have.

post #347 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekT View Post

 

How exaclty would of a background check stopped this guy.


There should be a multi-tiered system of background checks, at the very least. Like, let's say you want to buy a musket: then the two-day waiting period is fine. But if you want to buy a Glock semi-automatic with an extended clip - the sort of gun that was regulated by the Assault Weapons Ban - then you should have to undergo a pretty serious and thorough background check: the kind you would have to submit to if you wanted to, say, get a car loan or something. Maybe force him to get a co-signer. Yeah, I think having to get a co-signer on a semi-automatic weapon is a good idea. I'm 99.9% certain no one would have co-signed for Loughner's crazy ass.

 

100% agreed. Responsible gun-owners that aren't out for blood should have no problem at all jumping through all kinds of hoops to get their precious kill-tool.
 


And yet somehow I don't see the NRA going with a must be a co-signer plan.  I'm not certain if I'm exactly for it either.  I mean sure it would work for lone nuts.  But I can just see the "2 gunman kill 14.  Both co-signed for the others gun." headlines if it was to occur.

post #348 of 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

There should be a multi-tiered system of background checks, at the very least. Like, let's say you want to buy a musket: then the two-day waiting period is fine. But if you want to buy a Glock semi-automatic with an extended clip - the sort of gun that was regulated by the Assault Weapons Ban - then you should have to undergo a pretty serious and thorough background check: the kind you would have to submit to if you wanted to, say, get a car loan or something. Maybe force him to get a co-signer. Yeah, I think having to get a co-signer on a semi-automatic weapon is a good idea. I'm 99.9% certain no one would have co-signed for Loughner's crazy ass.


I'm not saying that's a bad idea, but I really don't think the Supreme Court would go for it.  District of Columbia v. Heller in 2008 established a clear precedent for interpreting the second amendment in an "individual rights" context rather than a "corporate rights" context. Requiring a co-signer would I think be seen to infringe too much on the "individual rights" interpretation. (Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. I've just done some research. If someone is a lawyer here I would certainly like to hear their thoughts on this matter.)

post #349 of 349

I didn't necessarily mean the co-signing thing. Just that there should be as many hoops to jump through as necessary to get some exotic killing machine if you want it.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Political Discourse
CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › DEMOCRATIC ARIZONA CONGRESSWOMAN SHOT BY GUNMAN