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Prankster is absolutely right. Can't we at least act like adults and wait to hear more information instead of instantly politicizing this tragedy and using it to vindicate your political leanings?
Guys, while it looks pretty likely this was a Tea Party thing, maybe we could hold off on leaping to assumptions? Seriously? It's really not a good idea to immediately try to politicize something before the facts are in. It seems kinda ghoulish, like certain people are happy to be vindicated. Honestly, this is exactly the kind of behaviour I despise from the modern right. Let's not jump on that bandwagon, OK? If Loughner is just a lone nut (and when someone is as crazy as this guy appears to be, I feel like politics are somewhat irrelevant anyway) it doesn't make the Tea party any less assholish.
I am sure he's a lone nut. At least that's what is most likely. I don't want to contemplate the idea of an organized right wing terrorist force. I am of the opinion though that Beck, Palin ETC have been trying to trigger these lone wolves with their rhetoric, This has been scaring me for a while now, and the media never treated it seriously. "So what if we have politicians talking about 'second amendment solutions'?"
I am not happy to be vindicated, but I am hoping that maybe people will wake up and smell the right wing madness that's brewing right under their noses. I am tired of being afraid of these people, and now what I feared would happen has happened. I am not going to hold my tongue for fear of offending tea partiers. If I am wrong about this than mea culpa, but I doubt that is the case with every fiber of my being
This tragedy does not exist in a vaccume. It's part of a trend of violent political rhetoric and I can't just weep for the victims but not feel anger at those who have created this environment
EDIT: I will be quiet about the tea party connection now till it's confirmed though
I don't think anyone is happy about this, including the right wing. But to deny the political implications is this is incredibly naive. The only conclusion I'm jumping to is that all the anti-government rhetoric that's been around lately is harmful. Even if it doesn't have anything to do with this shooting (and I'm totally willing to concede that it might not), just the idea that Palin has that website with the cross-hairs is a problem.
I'm not saying it's related. I'm saying it's wrong even if it's related.
The new spin is that the guy owned Mein Kamp and The Communist Manifesto, and an invisible unnamed "friend" claims the guy was a far-left liberal.
Of course, there is absolutely nothing in THE VIDEOS THE GUY RECORDED OF HIMSELF TALKING AND RANTING to give credence to that, but be ready for conservativres to spread that "He was actually a communist!" around.
I'm not saying we should deny the political implications. But we should wait until we actually know, and perhaps more importantly, we shouldn't try and cram this into a convenient narrative. One of the guy's favourite books was apparently the Communist Manifesto, which is something I'm sure some right-wing douchebag somewhere will make a lot of hay with. Can we avoid doing the same from the opposite perspective?
I despise the attitude that "both sides are equally bad" because I honestly don't believe it to be true. But this thread, and a lot of left-wingers, seem to be trying to prove me wrong.
EDIT: No sooner have I said this than BTSMGL confirms it.
Sure sounds like an Alex Jones \ Prison Planet type follower who did this. A lot of those guys are Ron Paul followers because of his anti-Federal Reserve \ Gold Standard philosophy but make no mistake, they're mostly crazies or even anarchists who are big into conspiracy theories like 9/11 being an inside job.. the wealthy in the country having a cobal that meet up and plan world domination, etc... Anyone know Isludur Bangs real name, is this him???
They're also big on anti-illegal immigration, if I remember correctly... but I could be wrong on that one.
And here's Snaieke to confirm the idiocy of using this to tar your favourite group.
Ooh, no, I know, it was Twilight fans! I hate those guys!
I'm not saying we should deny the political implications. But we should wait until we actually know, and perhaps more importantly, we shouldn't try and cram this into a convenient narrative. One of the guy's favourite books was apparently the Communist Manifesto, which is something I'm sure some right-wing douchebag somewhere will make a lot of hay with. Can we avoid doing the same from the opposite perspective?
I despise the attitude that "both sides are equally bad" because I honestly don't believe it to be true. But this thread, and a lot of left-wingers, seem to be trying to prove me wrong.
EDIT: No sooner have I said this than BTSMGL confirms it.
Your telling us not to jump to conclusions (which nobody, other then Kate, is really doing) would mean a lot more if you weren't using Facebook and Twitter reports to back yourself up.
Also, give me a break, Prankster. We get it already. Nobody is calling for Republican or Tea Bag blood on this. We're not talking about how the Republicans "must be stopped" and are "ruining the country" and have a "socialist agenda" or "fascist agenda." We're not comparing them with Hitler or using words like "make a stand against them" or "take back with force." But people in this thread are on par with those who do leave comments like that all the time? Please. We're reporting on things that we have to report on. The guy's crazy videos, the fact that Gifford's office was attacked, the fact that it was a big Tea Part protect center...are we just supposed to ignore these things? The biggest conclusion jumping I see in this thread is you insisting that we're jumping to conclusions (again, barring Kate...and maybe Snaike).
And here's Snaieke to confirm the idiocy of using this to tar your favourite group.
Ooh, no, I know, it was Twilight fans! I hate those guys!
If the glove fits. Conservatives go to that site, heck I go to that site for interviews but you have to have a switch in your head that identifies crazy and some people don't have that switch and they get passionate about things and bad things happen. It's unfortunate, especially in the day and age of pills that can change brain chemistry.. shame we can't stop people from going on murderous rampages. Gun bans aren't the answer, look at the packages that have been sent to officials in washington designed to explode or whatever in the last few days. There are crazies in this would and if they want to kill people, they'll do it or die trying...
Look, its clear this guy was a nut. But the people he targeted were the same people the Tea Party and right wing extremists also targeted. Coincidence? Perhaps. But as I posted on the previous page using Giffords own words, when people spout rhetoric and fire people up by saying we need to "take our country back" by posting sniper targets on elected officials districts, those people have to realize that there are consequences to those actions. Arguably, this guy needed an outlet and Palin and her cronies gave him it.
Whether or not this specific incident was linked to the Tea Party, others have been. The afore posted link regarding Gifford's office being vandalized after her vote for health care reform, and this post about a flyer for an anti-Giffords event in which people were encouraged to bring guns: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/gabrielle-giffords-shot-c_n_806211.html#22_chilling
This is unacceptable. And I hope this incident sheds light on the extremes some people are going in response to Palin's irresponsible webpage.
ETA: http://twitter.com/SarahPalinUSA/status/10935548053
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47252.html
Timely to our discussion.
Also, I know that last quote is coming from an emotional state of mind, but it still underlines the problem with all of these ignorant and violent protests.
[quote] The New York Post quoted Giffords’ weeping father, who said, when asked if the congresswoman had enemies: “Yeah…the whole Tea Party.”[quote]
Originally Posted by Parker
Your telling us not to jump to conclusions (which nobody, other then Kate, is really doing) would mean a lot more if you weren't using Facebook and Twitter reports to back yourself up.
Also, give me a break, Prankster. We get it already. Nobody is calling for Republican or Tea Bag blood on this. We're not talking about how the Republicans "must be stopped" and are "ruining the country" and have a "socialist agenda" or "fascist agenda." We're not comparing them with Hitler or using words like "make a stand against them" or "take back with force." But people in this thread are on par with those who do leave comments like that all the time? Please. We're reporting on things that we have to report on. The guy's crazy videos, the fact that Gifford's office was attacked, the fact that it was a big Tea Part protect center...are we just supposed to ignore these things? The biggest conclusion jumping I see in this thread is you insisting that we're jumping to conclusions (again, barring Kate...and maybe Snaike).
Um. What? I was saying that other people will probably exploit the guy had listed as his favourite books as an example of jumping to conclusions. And I was saying they shouldn't do that. The question of whether he actually did think The Communist Manifesto is one of the best books ever written is completely immaterial to my point. I was citing an example of behaviour I didn't want to see emulated.
And where the hell is this "comparing them to Hitler" shit coming from? I think my point was pretty clear. The Tea Party has a habit of grabbing facts, incidents, and quotes and cramming them into a convenient political narrative. I saw some people--SOME people--in this thread starting to do the same thing. I frankly kind of loathe this behaviour, no matter who does it. The ghoulishness with which some people, including yourself, leapt to use this as a switch to beat the Tea Partiers with--before a single goddamn fact about the shooter was known--is indeed starting down the same road the Tea Partiers are on.
In case it needs to be said, DUH, of course I think the Tea Partiers, and the right in general, is way way worse than the left, or anyone in this thread. Which is why I don't want to see the left engaging in the same kind of behaviour. And yes, it looks an awful lot like the current atmosphere may have contributed to setting this guy off, though there's hardly a ton of evidence so far. That doesn't exactly make me a happy camper. And if it turns out that he was a politically neutral Travis Bickle, that does absolutely zilch to change the argument that the Teabaggers are being irresponsible in their choice of rhetoric. It might damage our credibility, though.
And for fuck's sake, are you seriously telling me there wasn't a certain glee in some corners when this was announced? It's frustrating when people ignore your warnings, and it's nice to be proven right. But you know what else is nice? Being wrong in your apocalyptic predictions. There are people out there who almost immediately started chanting, "Ha ha, you see?" Yes, ha ha. A bunch of people are dead, and the political movement we've been worried about may be as dangerous as we thought. Ha ha the dilly-o.
High School\college\band mate friend of his tweeted he was left-wing, liberal.
See? Snaieke's doing the same fucking thing from the opposite direction. Although God help me for defending Snaieke, but at least he's doing it in response to accusations. It doesn't help anyone figure out what actually happened, it's just a flurry of tidbits that people desperately latch onto to promote their viewpoint.
Just was flipping during a football commercial and some dope kid was talking at a vigil covered by Fox News. The kid mentions Palin and a quick cut to commercial. Way to be Fair and Balanced.
Thank you Prankster. I didn't vote for Giffords last year...I suppose, in PK's eyes, that makes me complicit in this attack. Geez, grow up.
Word is that the doctors are "optimistic" as to Giffords' recovery...that's good news. But the dead judge & the dead 9-year-old girl....ugh. What a horrible day it's been for Tucson.
I'm pretty sure that the gunman is just a nutjob, though. Sarah Palin's a pretty lousy lady, but not EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD is her fault.
Sheriff Clarence Dupnik is kicking ass at the press conference right now. Anybody seeing this live? He's amazing, and I hope what he's saying spreads around.
The 9 year old girl getting killed just pisses me off so much. Apparently she was at the rally because her parents brought her there to "see how our Government works." That's the saddest thing I've read in months.
But I guess I shouldn't be talking about any of this until ALL OF THE FACTS ARE IN!
Also, this is what I was talking about above. The sheriff of the county where the shooting happened is quoted below. But I guess he shouldn't be trying to "politicize this" either.
Mr. Dupnik called the shooting a “very sad day for Tucson” and a “horrendous, horrendous, senseless, unbelievable crime.” And then he blamed the crime on the rhetoric — presumably political rhetoric — in the country.
“When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government,” he said. “The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on this country is getting to be outrageous and unfortunately Arizona has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.”
Mr. Dupnik said it is time for the country to “do a little soul searching.”
He added: “The vitriolic rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business and some people in the TV business … This has not become the nice United States that most of us grew up in.”
Later, he said: “It’s not unusual for all public officials to get threats constantly, myself included. That’s the sad thing about what’s going on in America: pretty soon we’re not going to be able to find reasonable decent people willing to subject themselves to serve in public office.”
I mean, come on. She's a politician who has been threatened with violence before, both physically and "metaphorically." Are we supposed to ignore the disgusting political environment we're living in? I never indicated that anyone specifically was responsible for this, especially not a political party. My point had to do with the larger problem of how our political positions are treated as a call to arms. "Don't retreat, reload" is dangerous political rhetoric. So is listing districts with fucking cross-hairs over them. And if you expect people to turn a blind eye to that issue with everything that's happened in the past couple of years, you're fooling yourself.
Olbermann has a guy who specializes in profiling explaining how, despite having Kampf and Manifesto, nearly everything the guy rants about is stuff that fits firmly under the umbrella of the radical right (including government controlling grammar, conscious dreaming and silver/gold currency). He even listed off right-wingers who talk about those subjects a lot. His "favorite books" are usually about railing against power.
Oh, don't be silly. It was a tragic day for those who died and their families and friends., no matter what the political implications are. Extremely tragic too lose a life so young to this insanity.
High School\college\band mate friend of his tweeted he was left-wing, liberal.
Oh good, now that his political affiliations are settled, the right-wing can go back to their over the top rhetoric about Second Amendment solutions and reloading.
Oh, don't be silly. It was a tragic day for those who died and their families and friends., no matter what the political implications are. Extremely tragic too lose a life so young to this insanity.
Who the fuck is being silly? The girls parents took her to the rally to show her how "government works." That's fucking sad! Nothing silly about it!
It was directed at the "UNTIL ALL FACTS ARE IN!" comment. I don't really think you are being silly either.
Maybe I'm not that bright, but I figure someone that posts numerous videos talking about mind control and shit like that has reached a point where specific political affiliations arent really appropriate.
As much as it may pain some people, I wouldn't be surprised if this guy just ended up being a run of the mill crazy.
Maybe I'm not that bright, but I figure someone that posts numerous videos talking about mind control and shit like that has reached a point where specific political affiliations arent really appropriate.
As much as it may pain some people, I wouldn't be surprised if this guy just ended up being a run of the mill crazy.
This is honestly what crossed my mind when watching the videos. He just sounds like a fucking nut.
But that's not my point. He could be a card carrying Green Party member and that wouldn't matter to me. The idea that it's so easy to assume that he's tied in with the Tea-Party is the problem. The fact that it doesn't take that much of a leap to make that assumption. Should we assume? No, probably not. But then again, they shouldn't be making it so easy for us to make assumptions. It's problematic and makes me think it's time to cut down on the insane fucking antics from the media and pundits.
When you look at the big picture and you've got a mouthpiece of a major political party with target signs over the district where a woman gets killed, when you've got politicians using words like "2nd Amendment Solutions to problems" or when an interview of RNC Chairmen potentials includes a question like "how many guns do you own?" and when we hear constant outrageous and ignorant lies from a real political force in the country (talking about the Tea Party to be clear) it's time to ask ourselves if the sensationalism in our political process has gotten out of hand. When it's so easy to link the violence this guy has done with that sensationalism, that's a problem.
And trust me, I think the shit Olberman is doing right now is part of the problem.
Maybe I'm not that bright, but I figure someone that posts numerous videos talking about mind control and shit like that has reached a point where specific political affiliations arent really appropriate.
As much as it may pain some people, I wouldn't be surprised if this guy just ended up being a run of the mill crazy.
This is honestly what crossed my mind when watching the videos. He just sounds like a fucking nut.
But that's not my point. He could be a card carrying Green Party member and that wouldn't matter to me. The idea that it's so easy to assume that he's tied in with the Tea-Party is the problem. The fact that it doesn't take that much of a leap to make that assumption. Should we assume? No, probably not. But then again, they shouldn't be making it so easy for us to make assumptions. It's problematic and makes me think it's time to cut down on the insane fucking antics from the media and pundits.
When you look at the big picture and you've got a mouthpiece of a major political party with target signs over the district where a woman gets killed, when you've got politicians using words like "2nd Amendment Solutions to problems" or when an interview of RNC Chairmen potentials includes a question like "how many guns do you own?" and when we hear constant outrageous and ignorant lies from a real political force in the country (talking about the Tea Party to be clear) it's time to ask ourselves if the sensationalism in our political process has gotten out of hand. When it's so easy to link the violence this guy has done with that sensationalism, that's a problem.
And trust me, I think the shit Olberman is doing right now is part of the problem.
I'm with you, Parker. This tragedy should become a catalyst for a lot of people stepping back and realizing that whatever bullshit they've been spewing could have very real and tragic consequences. Do I think that's going to happen, though? I doubt it.
So, the sheriff says that he blames the mouths spewing hate. An incredible statement:
On the subject of ARIZONA:
"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.
"It's not unusual for all public officials to get threats constantly, myself included. And that's the sad thing of what's going on in America. Pretty soon, we're not going to be able to find reasonable, decent people who are willing to subject themselves to serve in public office."
And the murder tool? Purchased LEGALLY. And extended clip semi auto hand gun. What purpose does such a device have other than mass death?
I'd like my President to show some fucking back bone and try to move forward on getting rid of this nations guns. If this isn't a call to arms (no pun intended), I don't know what is. A nation that needs extended clips is deeply unbalanced
Nothing you just said in that last post is unreasonable, Parker. I'm not taking issue with people saying this is probably the Tea Party's fault--I just said it myself. I'm taking issue with the way some people instantly seemed to be forming talking points around it, which is fucked. As Closer points out, that's backfired on people in this forum before. The fact this guy will probably indeed turn out to be a Teabagger or similar type doesn't retroactively excuse the kneejerking.
The Sheriff presumably knows more about the situation than we do, so that's not even comparable.
I am sick of the suggestion that it's knee jerking to call out the fact we've been living in an enviroNment where violent political rhetoric and imagery has been acceptable since the 2008 election. I am sick of it. It's not a "talking point", it's a cry for sanity. It does no good to stand around crying, we need to ensure that this does not happen again. Guns and hate mongers who put targets over politicians are the problem
If this doesn't wake people up I don't know what will. I fear this is the start of a trend, to be perfectly frank, and I am not going to stand for people telling me that I am spewing 'talking points' when I verbalize this concern
Wait...so you honestly think violent political imagery has been around only since the 2008 election?
You're as loony as the shooter. And as it turns out, dude is apparently pretty psychotic.
Wait...so you honestly think violent political imagery has been around only since the 2008 election?
You're as loony as the shooter. And as it turns out, dude is apparently pretty psychotic.
Oh go to hell. Tell me when before the election of Barack Obama you saw people carrying guns and "tree of liberty" sings to presidental rallies? Tell me when before 2008 you recall hearing the nominee of a major party for a senate race talk openly about "second amendment solutions" if elections didn't go their way
Tell me how many gun sight targets were placed over politicians faces by Dan Quayle during the Clinton years
"Take them out" "take our country back" "the president is hell bent on weakening america"
This is new, dangerous shit. Everyone better wake up and realize it before it's the norm and there is no going back
Goddammit Kate, Closer is being pretty reasonable. He asked people not to jump to conclusions, and he was right. The truth, as is almost always the case, has settled somewhere firmly in the middle. It's an ugly situation. The atmosphere in Arizona is and has been ugly. The entire political climate is fucked. But strident proclamations as to this or that affiliation is just kerosene on the flames. There's more than enough shame and blame to go around without making shit up.
For the record: the John Birch Society did this same act to Kennedy in Dallas. It's a well-worn strategem, and nothing new. The whole point is to saturate the climate with hate and let the lunatics take the heat.
Yeah, you're right.
http://www.zombietime.com/us_out_of_iraq_now_sf_3-18-2007/IMG_2416.JPG
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/Bush_is_the_disease.jpg
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/imheretokillbush.jpg
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/BushWhackerElMarco.jpg
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_april_10_2004/characters/120-2044_IMG.JPG
This zombietime site has a shitload more of them, too....I'm glad I found it. Anyway, this has nothing to do with my original point, so I'll back away slowly and allow you to continue being loony in peace.
Although we won't know what the shooter's exact motives were until he decides to disclose them (if that ever happens), I'm personally hoping that he was indeed just a crazy piece of shit and this was a one off. And I'm not hoping for that to score some political points on a message forum, rather because - in my mind - it means something like this is not likely to happen again soon.
Closer, none of that is coming from the party standard bearers. It's just left wing wackos. The vice presidential nominee for 2008 is placing targets on politicians and telling the tea party to "reload" in the face of their loss in 2008
Show me the sitting Dem politician talking about second amendment solutions to Bush, or STFU
This is very much a problem with ONE party. That's my last word on the subject because I can't argue with people who are being deliberately retarded
Well boo-fucking-hoo Closer. There's a big difference between having the blood of thousands of innocent Iraqis on your hands and voting for health care reform.
Again, the operative analogy here is the John Birch Society in Dallas. Same script, same outcome.
lol
Thats in response to Kate's last post, btw.
Well boo-fucking-hoo Closer. There's a big difference between having the blood of thousands of innocent Iraqis on your hands and voting for health care reform.
Again, the operative analogy here is the John Birch Society in Dallas. Same script, same outcome.
I wasnt trying to argue a larger point. I could give a shit what the motivations were. My post was in response to the fantasy world that Kate lives in where apparently people threatening violence against their leaders didnt happen prior to 2008. That's also why, in the same post, I backed away and let crazy be crazy.
I'm just gonna say now, that it was a sad day for Tucson. It doesn't matter what your politics are, or what the lunatic may have thought his politics were. I could have known someone who was killed today, but thankfully I didn't. That doesn't help the people here that did know them, sadly. It's just a sad day.
You are both being pricks. False equivocations are just as bad as false claims.
This is tearing us apart!
I am sad again.
This is tearing us apart!
I am sad again.
Worry not. I'm faxing you a hug as we speak.
I'll admit to letting my anger get the better of me earlier and jumping to conclusions without all the facts. Still, this looks like it was a targeted political assassination at a time when hate speech and violence-laced rhetoric have infected the national conversation. I think it's very clear which side that infection came from. And it doesn't just come from the fringe wackjobs; it goes all the way to the top, all in the name of securing votes from the undereducated and misinformed.
No, this guy may not have been a Tea Party member or a Sarah Palin acolyte. But it's hard to argue that Palin and her ilk have been busy creating an atmosphere that enables or is conducive to a wide array of disturbed persons with a beef against the government. Even if this guy was a unafilliated ticking time-bomb, hopefully the senseless acts he committed today will make everyone think twice about what kind of speech and rhetoric and imagery they use for no purpose other than to rile up the masses.
Holy crap. It just dawned on me that I think I'm agreeing with Kate.
Cant argue with that.
No, because you're being reasonable. Fuck, I agree with you. The Tea Party is destructive and damaging, and if this guy turns out to have been significantly influenced by them, I'll be calling for their heads along with everyone else. It won't be because I've changed my mind, it's because I want to be certain that it actually is their fault. Because if it isn't, I'm going to look kind of stupid. Even if my anti-Tea Party arguments are still 100% accurate.
When a classmate read a poem about her experience getting an abortion, Loughner called her a "terrorist for killing the baby". It doesn't get more left wing than THAT, eh? *rolls eyes*
He doesn't have to be a Tea Partier to be a right wing nut. Hell, even if he IS atheist, that doesn't mean he doesn't subscribe to right wing conspiracy theories.
"If it turns out he was influenced by them"???
The assassin is raving about the same gold standard stuff as Beck and GOP politicians
When did you hear word one about the gold standard outside of history books before the tea party?
Apparently she's awake and alert. Kind of a fucking miracle, actually.
Olbermann's SPECIAL COMMENT: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/keith-olbermann-arizona-shooting_n_806311.html
He calls on this nation to put the guns -- and gun metaphors -- away for good
The Army was wise enough to reject this space cadet. Too bad it's as easy to pick up a gun in America as it is a Dr. Pepper.
