KEVIN SMITH GOES FULL PALIN FOR RED STATE

One other similarity between Smith and Palin: their most vociferous apologists/followers sound like fucking retards.

I like Smith, and I'm bummed Red State doesn't seem to have worked, but the comments I'm seeing on every negative review are the usual HURR DURR U JUST JELLUS CRITICS R STOOPID. Is this the kind of fanbase Smith is happy to have? Actually, yes, it seems so. Because HURR DURR U JUST JELLUS CRITICS R STOOPID is basically his Twitter content now.

Because its pretty much the one thing that always comes to my mind when the "Smith vs critics" thing pops up:

Ive never cared or even liked Smith's s career input at all (hell, i think Mallrats is the only movie of his i can say i enjoyed), but I cant really say it surprises me that he is content to stay with his niche fan crowd and milk them for all their worth; the guy clearly cant/wont move beyond that.

Wonder if he'll stop writing comics as well.

At this point I don't get why anyone would still be a fan of Smith, unless he was trying to prove a point. He's still a funny guy but for someone who's been in the public light he has the emotional maturity of a 12 year old girl. I think he's thrown one tantrum too many for my tastes. And this later stuff isn't helping at all. 

I wish he'd retire before Hit Somebody, really.  Would rather just listen to the radio shows at this point.  Hell, I enjoy SmodCast itself more for Scott Mosier at this point.  He is fucking hilarious.  He'll actually be funny, while Kev constantly goes on about "too fat to fly" or smoking weed.

Moriarty's evisceration was particularly satisfying. Someone get Jake on the phone.

Dogma and Mallrats are the only two of his films I can stand to re-watch nowadays.  It's a real shame dude had such promise and smoked it all away.

I gave the man my last free pass with Zack and Miri. I can't muster anything for the man past that. He's just noise these days to me. I nothing Kevin Smith.

That was an excellent write up, in that it threaded together some mildly profound thoughts about Smith without praising him or being a slam piece at all. Then sure enough, the first comment is a Smith fan sounding like a crazy ass Kool-Aid drinking Palin booster.

I have to admit the vociferous pro and anti stances on Smith in the online community are both way more irritating to me than anything the man himself has said or done in the last five years. This forum, which is usually well above talkback bullshit, gets a distinct air of smug superiority up in it whenever the opportunity to shit on Smith comes up. And I do have to give him credit for riling up the internets so efficiently with each new affront. You'd think Red State was one of the year's most anticipated films, the way the websites jumped all over the Sundance premiere. 

I'm not trying to pick a fight or defend anything though. I know everyone really loves bitching about Kevin Smith, and it brings out some of the weirdest from everybody. So I just wanted to praise this awesome piece that really told it like it is, thoughtfully.

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Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd You'd think Red State was one of the year's most anticipated films, the way the websites jumped all over the Sundance premiere. 

To the geek community it kind of is, as the film is Smith's raging against the dying of the light that was his '90s indy-darling career. This was the last roll of the dice for him in a lot of people's minds. That he chose to pull off such a cheap, self-serving publicity stunt at the conclusion of the screening is a fitting way to finally kiss goodbye to any credibility he once possessed.

I can take or leave Smith at this point -- and I'm not surprised at all that RED STATE apparently sucks -- but all this righteous indignation about Kevin Smith pulling a fast one last night kind of cracks me up. So he said he was going to auction the film and instead announced that he was releasing it himself? Who gives a shit? Even if he would have been totally up front about his plans, the movie press and bloggers at Sundance would have still gone to the screening to get the full story. McWeeny and others seem way too butt-hurt over something that deserves an eye roll at most.

Maybe if Smith didn't spend every waking second engendering these feelings in people via his podcasts/bitchy anecdotes/self-promoting nonsense the baggage would be less of a problem. He's made his bed, now he has to lie in it. Smith set up this circus yesterday, he made the "auction" the centre of attention, and now he's made RED STATE's "release" all about his own ego too - and it's the critics and audiences who are at fault for talking too much about him?

Smith's schtick sounds pretty retarded from what I hear, but I only hear about it on here and don't find it difficult to ignore. Maybe if people *did* ignore him the whole cult of personality would be deflated and his work would be forced to sink or swim on its own merits, which would be a nice thing. The Palin comparison fits fairly well: the ferocity of hate she inspires only helps perpetuate her notoriety which increases the perception that she is an important and influential figure, which in turn has the effect of actually increasing her status and influence for real.

Awesome.

Good piece all around.

I was thinking about Dogma the other day, and how tragic it is. It's not a great movie, but it saw Smith at least trying to grow as a filmmaker. Everything since then has been regression. Even geek hatred magnets like Brent Ratner and Paul Anderson have made attempts to grow over the years. They may not have succeeded, but they pressed their skills.

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Originally Posted by Gabe Powers 

I was thinking about Dogma the other day, and how tragic it is. It's not a great movie, but it saw Smith at least trying to grow as a filmmaker. Everything since then has been regression. Even geek hatred magnets like Brent Ratner and Paul Anderson have made attempts to grow over the years. They may not have succeeded, but they pressed their skills.

Honestly this is the kind of curious remark that makes me feel like these threads are more about people wheeling out their long-since-cemented comfort blanket opinions than processing and discussing things that are actually going on. Red State may well suck, but what is this movie if not an attempt by him to exactly what you're accusing him of not doing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe Powers 

I was thinking about Dogma the other day, and how tragic it is. It's not a great movie, but it saw Smith at least trying to grow as a filmmaker. Everything since then has been regression. Even geek hatred magnets like Brent Ratner and Paul Anderson have made attempts to grow over the years. They may not have succeeded, but they pressed their skills.

Replace Dogma with the undeserved venomous reaction from his fanbase to Jersey Girl, which is really what I think set him on the wrong path.

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Originally Posted by Justin Clark 

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Originally Posted by Gabe Powers 

I was thinking about Dogma the other day, and how tragic it is. It's not a great movie, but it saw Smith at least trying to grow as a filmmaker. Everything since then has been regression. Even geek hatred magnets like Brent Ratner and Paul Anderson have made attempts to grow over the years. They may not have succeeded, but they pressed their skills.

Replace Dogma with the undeserved venomous reaction from his fanbase to Jersey Girl, which is really what I think set him on the wrong path.

This.  JERSEY GIRL wasn't that good but it got ripped waaaaay too hard, & the reaction really seemed to fuck him up in a way from which he's apparently never recovered.  No wonder his next movie turned out to be CLERKS 2, of all things.  It took him another 6 years to even consider trying something kinda outside of his wheelhouse.

I remember catching Jersey Girl back when it came out, and my friend and I thought it was a pretty decent movie, and yeah, it didn't deserve all the hate it got. I can't say I don't appreciate Clerks II though. Loved that movie.

I'm hoping that Red State comes somewhere near me. As of now the closest is Austin, and I really wish I could make that date, but alas I can't. What I'm really interested in is what this "could have been great but wasn't" ending.

What pisses me off the most is how Smith belittled the filmbuyers at Sundance.  For that week and a day, anyway, those are the good guys.  All that attention that screaming little brat got for RED STATE bought him time and effort that could have been used to rally around real films that needed attention.  If somehow BELLFLOWER doesn't get picked up, a movie I'd see over RED STATE any day of the week and twice on Sunday... Smith wasted the time of some people out there who really could be doing better things with their time than to coddle and placate a big fucking baby.

Jersey Girl is at least a sweet, honest-intentioned mainstream film from a fucking adult, and even with that, it has possibly the best and simplest exchange Smith has ever written (Carlin's line about dying alone). His fanbase called him a pussy for it. And then he made Clerks 2.

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Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny 

What pisses me off the most is how Smith belittled the filmbuyers at Sundance.  For that week and a day, anyway, those are the good guys.  All that attention that screaming little brat got for RED STATE bought him time and effort that could have been used to rally around real films that needed attention.  If somehow BELLFLOWER doesn't get picked up, a movie I'd see over RED STATE any day of the week and twice on Sunday... Smith wasted the time of some people out there who really could be doing better things with their time than to coddle and placate a big fucking baby.

Also, this.

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Originally Posted by Justin Clark 

it has possibly the best and simplest exchange Smith has ever written (Carlin's line about dying alone). His fanbase called him a pussy for it. And then he made Clerks 2.

Did they REALLY?  Jeez... I actually like Jersey Girl.  It's middling for the most part, but it's sweet with its heart in the right place.

So now it's Smith's fault if other films don't get picked up? You guys are going to lay that at Smith's feet instead of the filmbuyers, whose job it is to ignore the sideshow and find quality product? If all you knew about Kevin Smith is what you read at film sites, you'd think he was Satan in a hockey jersey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny 

What pisses me off the most is how Smith belittled the filmbuyers at Sundance.  For that week and a day, anyway, those are the good guys.  All that attention that screaming little brat got for RED STATE bought him time and effort that could have been used to rally around real films that needed attention.  If somehow BELLFLOWER doesn't get picked up, a movie I'd see over RED STATE any day of the week and twice on Sunday... Smith wasted the time of some people out there who really could be doing better things with their time than to coddle and placate a big fucking baby.

This is the weirdest thing out of it all:  why the fuck would he travel all the way to Sundance just to tell all of the film buyers that working with them is a complete waste of time?  He could have simply made this announcement on his website or whatever.  Was he deliberately trying to burn all of his bridges?

No, it won't be Smith's fault if movies don't get picked up.  I've never been to Sundance; I'm hoping to go next year (if the stars fall right).  But I'd imagine that time for those people is a valuable commodity.  Decieving journalists and bloggers is one thing; those people quite another.  It was a waste of time for them to be there last night.  For a lot of people, Sundance is their way in.  Smith ridiculed the very system that allowed his career to exist in the first place.

You don't think that any studio would have happily picked up RED STATE?  His crack about the subject matter driving distributors away is complete fucking horseshit.  Kevin Smith films make money.  They turn in a profit.  I don't know the final numbers on COP OUT but according to reports he turned in the film under budget and ahead of time. Film's crap, but do you think the bottom-liners give a shit about that?  Those distributors were there to see if RED STATE would be profitable.  And I bet at the end of the day RED STATE's going to make a profit - at a $4 million budget and with Smith's pedigree his film would have to be 90 minutes of static not to.  And the fact is most of those people would have been somewhere else doing something more important if Smith's lies about putting the film up for auction weren't being spouted by him on his Twitter feed every day.

I'm probably angrier about this than I have any real need to be - it's no skin off my nose if Smith makes a billion dollars or $20.  But dude lied to his fans, to the press, and to those distributors.  He can sugarcoat it anyway he likes.  But Drew called it - he's a liar.

You know what? I'm half tempted to go to the Wilbur on the 6th, in spite of myself and in spite of Smith. I feel like I'd be buying ringside seats to the rapid disintegration of someone who used to be a promising filmmaker-- almost two decades ago-- and I think that's sort of a hard opportunity to pass up. Maybe that makes me a bastard, but I'm curious.

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Originally Posted by Justin Clark 

I gave the man my last free pass with Zack and Miri. I can't muster anything for the man past that. He's just noise these days to me. I nothing Kevin Smith.

Jeez Justin you're more generous than me, I think my last free pass got used up back in the days when people still knew who James Van Der Beek was. I don't hate or even dislike Smith either, I just don't even think about him or his 'work' until stuff like this happens on the interweb

On the bright side, maybe the backlash against Smith and Red State will lead more people to champion Lucky Mckee's new movie, The Woman, that debuted this weekend. People love a "after all the hype, THIS is the real deal" kind of news story, especially when it's the film itself that's making people angry.

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Originally Posted by zak chase 

I can take or leave Smith at this point -- and I'm not surprised at all that RED STATE apparently sucks -- but all this righteous indignation about Kevin Smith pulling a fast one last night kind of cracks me up. So he said he was going to auction the film and instead announced that he was releasing it himself? Who gives a shit? Even if he would have been totally up front about his plans, the movie press and bloggers at Sundance would have still gone to the screening to get the full story. McWeeny and others seem way too butt-hurt over something that deserves an eye roll at most.

Smith took his film to Sundance, which is where one goes to get a distributor, after months of saying he was going to Sundance to get a distributor.  He then gets a room full of distributors and ostensibly tells them to fuck off, because he's self distributing.  Sorry, there's no way to spin this in Smith's favor.  It was nothing but an attention whore's desperate need to stay relevant, as it's glaringly obvious his success was just a fluke.  He could have announced this any number of other decent ways.  Instead of taking the high road, he took the back alley...fuck him.  I'm glad he and his movie are getting eviscerated.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Clark 

Jersey Girl is at least a sweet, honest-intentioned mainstream film from a fucking adult, and even with that, it has possibly the best and simplest exchange Smith has ever written (Carlin's line about dying alone). His fanbase called him a pussy for it. And then he made Clerks 2.

But "Clerks 2" gave the world that Rosario Dawson bouncing.gif! (I kid, I kid...)

Maybe I should give "Jersey Girl" a rental, just in case...never bothered with it.

More than anything, I'm just sick of hearing about him. Any "controversy" surrounding him seems like nothing more than a temper tantrum seeking attention. It's a shame because he seems like a nice enough guy.

Kevin Smith compares himself to Edgar Wright, as a director who creates films people love, but those films don't always make a lot of money.  In specific he talks a lot about Scott Pilgrims lack of box office success and he draws an equivalency to this and his own films.  He seriously compares Zack and Mirni, and his other crap-fests to Scott Pilgrim.  This is how delusional the man has become.  I heard this on the one and only Smodcast I listened to, which I turned off fairly quickly, so who knows what other nonsense he has said.

I knew his latest film had to be bad, so it's not surprising McWeeny ripped it a new one.  Supposedly Neil Gaiman, and someone else I respect, but whose name I cannot remember, said the movie was good.  Or something to the extent of, it's the best thing Smith has ever done, which is like telling someone during World War II, their relative is in the best concentration camp in Germany.

When somebody says they like Kevin Smith films, only the older ones that person would say, I generally consider that person to have very poor taste.  Everything he does is absolute shit.  Obviously, the films we all know are bad.

A long time ago, I saw one of those godawful stand up shows of his.  And he started to talk about a hernia he had, and proceeded to explain in great detail to the audience how he used to bleed from the ass, for what seemed like at least half an hour.  And this is not a joke, it's dead serious.  He doesn't even try to be funny in these retarded shows, he just talks about random shit. 

My theory about his fans is, many of them like Kevin Smith and his asstastic 'comedy shows', because he's selling them the dream that any regular talentless hack can become a successful film-maker.  And that's a comforting dream to many. 

Positive reviews:

The Hollywood Reporter

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/review/sundance-review-todd-mccarthy-kevin-74896

Empire Online

http://www.empireonline.com/empireblogs/under-the-radar/post/p996

Pajiba

http://www.pajiba.com/film_reviews/red-state-review-kevin-smith-vs-the-world-critics-and-his-big-fat-mouth.php

Screen Junkies

http://www.screenjunkies.com/movies/movie-review/sundance-review-red-state/

The Wrap

http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/sundance-review-kevin-smiths-red-state-reinvention-return-form-24165

Neil Gaiman

http://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/8612723537485824

Richard Kelly

http://twitter.com/JRichardKelly/status/29400016867037185

Eliza Dushku

http://twitter.com/elizadushku/status/29398523527045121

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll 

Lucky Mckee's new movie, The Woman, that debuted this weekend. People love a "after all the hype, THIS is the real deal" kind of news story, especially when it's the film itself that's making people angry.

I am in awe of the restraint of the guy who was placating Bumblebee Man.

Shame, I was hoping he would make a good recovery after the COP OUT fiasco (both the film and his behavior during release). Guy had to fuck it up.

Oh well, I still enjoy some of his flicks. I haven't seen JERSEY GIRL, I just never got around to it so maybe I'll Netflix it soon. I've only seen a few parts of COP OUT on HBO and I'm not interested in seeing the rest.

When Nordling, pretty much the last intelligent poster around here to have a real soft spot for Smith, finally gets fed up with the guy's idiocy, you know the goose is cooked.

You guys are ignoring the fact that Eliza Dushku weighed in on the flick and found it "epic." ELIZA DUSHKU, the tastemaker, the laser-sharp critic of the day, Pauline Kael reanimated.

Also that Richard Kelly — who of course has never ever met Smith — loved it. And that Neil Gaiman — whose judgment has gone south since hooking up with Amanda Palmer, the biggest attention whore since Kevin Smith — loved it.

How dare you serfs question the opinions of these famous people who didn't pay to see the movie?

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Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Clark 

I gave the man my last free pass with Zack and Miri. I can't muster anything for the man past that. He's just noise these days to me. I nothing Kevin Smith.

Jeez Justin you're more generous than me, I think my last free pass got used up back in the days when people still knew who James Van Der Beek was. I don't hate or even dislike Smith either, I just don't even think about him or his 'work' until stuff like this happens on the interweb

Zack and Miri works, but only because of the talent Smith brought in, and him backing off his usual no-ad-libbing stance as a result. Judd Apatow deserves more credit for that flick than Kevin Smith.

So Smith might be a total wanker. He might have immolated, not burned, some bridges and spurned the last shred of goodwill many of his remaining fans hold for him. He might be a giant jerkoff, a crybaby, a bit of a bitch. Fair to say.

But what if Red State is actually kinda good?

Science says it won't be.

Well, I'll always trust science over Kevin Smith so that's a no-contest. Still. What if?

It'd have to hit a RAGING BULL-era Scorsese level of quality to wipe away the bad taste of buying into the guy's bullshit and paying massively over-the-odds for a ticket to this roadshow. I'm talking like the Flaming Moe of religious horror films.

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Originally Posted by agracru 

Well, I'll always trust science over Kevin Smith so that's a no-contest. Still. What if?

You probably would have heard something to that effect after its Sundance screening. That's how word usually gets out about films being good.

Maybe so. I guess I'm just really non-plussed by anything Smith does at this point; he's made being a huge, ignorant asshole into something of an Olympic event at which he is the reigning champion, so when he pulls something like that half hour rant before premiering this film (and ends up insulting and disrespecting pretty much every indie filmmaker working today), it doesn't phase me. He's a dickhead-- I've accepted that at this point. So maybe there isn't as much in the way for me to favorably view Red State when/if I get around to seeing it. Which isn't to say that I'm biased one way or another, mind, I'm fully prepared for this to be dogshit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil 

You probably would have heard something to that effect after its Sundance screening. That's how word usually gets out about films being good.

Sorry, did I do something to offend you? Look, the early press I've read has been mixed (and more importantly limited) and has come from people whose opinions generally don't sway my own. I'm kind of waiting for someone with weight to give their two cents, and after that I still have to see it for myself to judge, and so does everyone else. 'S all.

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Originally Posted by Phil 

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Originally Posted by agracru 

Well, I'll always trust science over Kevin Smith so that's a no-contest. Still. What if?

You probably would have heard something to that effect after its Sundance screening. That's how word usually gets out about films being good.

And so far the most positive initial reviews I read (ala Quint) were from people who clearly wanted to like it and root for Smith, but were just struggling to find things to praise regardless. I've seen this many times before, and it's all too easy to spot when people are trying not to join the dogpile and yet, can't escape the flaws all over the thing. And 9/10, that means the thing is dogshit.

Speaking of... can someone please spoil the ending to this (alleged) flaming piece of dogshit for me? I'm tired of reading about the "totally bizarre ending" that everyone wanted him to go for but he pussed out on.
 

Mcweeny and Matt Goldberg both thought little of it.  They both have excellent taste, so they're trust worthy.  Truth is I don't care about the manner in which he handled this film at Sundance, the underhanded tactics and all.  I think its kinda weird some people are getting so angry that he tricked some critics and studios into thinking he would be auctioning the film.  I mean, yea it was dishonest, but I'm not a critic or a studio looking to buy the film.  What angers me, is his films and the rest of his shitty output.  I even read some Daredevil comic by him, which was fairly boring as I remember it.  Plus theres that endearing stand up comedy show of his where he talks for half an hour about his bleeding asshole, literally. 

But you're right about having to see it to judge it.  I think I will eventually see it, but I wouldn't watch another comedy by Smith.  Never been a fan of his humor.  And with every new film he claims he's finally got it, that he figured it out.  And thats usually enough for me to check it out, but no more.

I wonder if the studios will retaliate by pressuring theaters into refusing to give screens to Red State.  It's absolutely in their interest to make sure this movie bombs.  Obviously, they don't want self distributed films succeeding.  Plus pissing them off by lying to them sure isn't going to help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by agracru 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil 

You probably would have heard something to that effect after its Sundance screening. That's how word usually gets out about films being good.

Sorry, did I do something to offend you? Look, the early press I've read has been mixed (and more importantly limited) and has come from people whose opinions generally don't sway my own.

You did nothing at all to offend me!  The movie screened. At Sundance.  Usually films that are good will have some buzz following their screenings. You can't get around the fact that the relative silence about the actual film is not a great sign for this movie. As for waiting for opinions with weight, if you put a lot of stock in Eliza Dushku's film criticism, I think you're in for some good news. Winky smiley and all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil 

 

You did nothing at all to offend me!  The movie screened. At Sundance.  Usually films that are good will have some buzz following their screenings. You can't get around the fact that the relative silence about the actual film is not a great sign for this movie. As for waiting for opinions with weight, if you put a lot of stock in Eliza Dushku's film criticism, I think you're in for some good news. Winky smiley and all that.

Just making sure. I have a habit of putting my foot in my mouth without realizing, so, you know. Best to be careful.

Yeah, I know that it screened, I just hadn't gotten around to reading reactions to it until this morning. And no, I can't deny that the fact that people are being more vocal over what an asshole Smith is (which, who can blame them) than they are about Red State probably doesn't bode especially well for the quality of the movie, though frankly even if the movie followed Merriweather's outline for excellence I still think we'd all be going on about Smith's hideous behavior more than anything else.

Nabster, thanks for pointing out McWeeny's reaction-- again, I'm catching up on reactions as I'm able, so forgive me for being behind the curve here. I'll say, charitably, that the piece is much more about his disdain for Smith than it is about the film, which seems to be the least offensive part of the screening as far as he's concerned-- but that's not saying much if I refer myself to the above paragraph, which I will because it only makes sense. But I think that Smith is kind of the key here. I don't really have a dog in the Smith fight-- he is, once more, a huge asshole, but I don't really care if he's an asshole or not. (Though I do find his sentiment disrespectful and his behavior childish.) I care if he makes good movies or not. So when I see Red State, I won't be rooting for it because I just plain old love Smith and want him to succeed, and I won't be opposed to it from the word "go" because he's a douchebag. I'll be neutral until the movie's over. Not that I blame anyone but I'm getting the sense that most reviews are being painted by their respective writers' disposition toward Smith, so I'm frankly having a hard time putting stock in any reactions to the film (that I've read so far).

Sorry, got rantish there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nabster 

Mcweeny and Matt Goldberg both thought little of it.  They both have excellent taste, so they're trust worthy.  

McWeeny's review is hardly trustworthy. Even if his criticisms are accurate the review is so pumped with venom directed at Smith as a person, and spends so much time pimping his own shitty movies, it's as worthless to me as the opinions of a Smith fanboy that worships everything the man's ever done. There seems to be so much baggage and emotion invested on both sides that the only reviews of this thing I'm interested in are those from people who, like myself, don't give much of a shit about Smith as a person or the cloud of retarded controversies that surrounds him these days.