Law: "We'd rather you die than get an abortion."

I wish we could get just one Republican on here who'd be willing to defend this. I think this'd even stick in Snaieke's rotten craw.

"I think a majority of Americans would believe that a hospital should not be imposing their religious beliefs when providing care, especially life-saving care," she added

End of story.  Religion should be kept as far away from these kind of political decisions as possible.   And from government in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

I wish we could get just one Republican on here who'd be willing to defend this. I think this'd even stick in Snaieke's rotten craw.

This cannot be defended under any circumstances. It makes it easier for people to know who to vote for, that is certain. Or not to vote for, in this case. 

I personally think abortion should be made as rare as possible. and late term abortions should only be considered in the case of a true life threatening situation to the mother. But to force hospitals to let someone die under any circumstance? That's evil.

What happens if a doctor ignores this and the woman subsequently lives? Do they both get charged with manslaughter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector 

 

I personally think abortion should be made as rare as possible.

Really?  Because being a liberal, I think that everyone should be forced to have an abortion at least once in their lives.  Men included. 

Doesn't the death of the mother usually result in the death of the fetus as well?

The Modern Day Hippocratic oath;

"I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help."

Hurm

Another part of God's plan: cancerous tumours. Switch off those chemo machines!

Also, no AIDS patients. Ewwwww.

There is no way to defend something like this. No common sense exists with these people obviously. Pisses me the fuck off too Stelios.

This bill is retarded.  But two things:

1) It is logically incoherent.  Presumably the fetus dies when the mother dies...  sooo this bill is essentially saying in the event that we will inevitably lose the fetus, it's better to let the mother die as well than have a doctor induce an abortion

2) Practically speaking, it won't make a difference.  I seriously doubt there's any respectable hospital in the country which doesn't have at least a few doctors on staff willing to abort in order to save the mother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuddL 

2) Practically speaking, it won't make a difference.  I seriously doubt there's any respectable hospital in the country which doesn't have at least a few doctors on staff willing to abort in order to save the mother.

If it passes, wouldn't all it take is for one doctor to fear criminal prosecution and hesitate too long?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

I wish we could get just one Republican on here who'd be willing to defend this. I think this'd even stick in Snaieke's rotten craw.

I'm Pro-Abortion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuddL 

2) Practically speaking, it won't make a difference.  I seriously doubt there's any respectable hospital in the country which doesn't have at least a few doctors on staff willing to abort in order to save the mother.

If it passes, wouldn't all it take is for one doctor to fear criminal prosecution and hesitate too long?

It's not a criminal statute.  All it does is change the law from one that would require a hospital to perform an abortion in order to save a mother's life (or transfer the mother to a hospital that will) to one where the hospital has discretion.  The vast majority of the country (over 80%), and presumably doctors (probably higher than that), support abortion in instances where it will save a mother's life.  So this bill would only have an effect in the rare instance where you have some super-christiany hospital.

I'm actually kind of torn on this.  I think it's perfectly ok for a doctor to refuse to perform an abortion (whether or not I agree with their beliefs), and I don't think we ought to force them to do so, but I'd like to be sure there are other doctors on standby who will step in.  The fact that the bill abdicates hospitals from transferring a woman to a doctor who will perform an abortion is what makes it so fucked up.

If you're in a quandry about abortions and find them grossly immoral maybe you shouldn't be a doctor in the first fucking place. I want a doctor who can leave their personal baggage at the door and do their job.

That's not entirely fair.  Given their beliefs, such doctors might just as well view their "job" as protecting the fetus.

Honestly, considering how incredibly common miscarriage is (although no one will ever admit this in the media or anywhere else), the fact that so much culture war can spring from the issue of abortions is appalling.  Not every pregnancy was meant to succeed, period.  The fact that these right wingers would allow a woman to die rather than give her a life-saving abortion is sociopathic and amoral.  There's no argument for killing the mother to protect the fetus, unless those politicians are willing to make each and every orphaned fetus their sole responsibility for life.  &^%$ers.

I will never understand how so many people pour so much passion and energy into the abortion issue when they couldn't give two $#!&s what happens to these children once they're born.  Given the mind-bending numbers of kids in foster care or homes, the sickening child abuse, neglect and abandonment statistics, and incredible number of children living with hunger and poverty, it seems disingenuous, to be polite about it.  To me, it's all about men wanting to control women's bodies and a form of madness, frankly.  I don't see this driven as a righteous quest to protect innocent life.  I've lived too long to buy into that. 

You gotta love this new Republican party for their ability to sell the same old crap to the American public. They came in, and more importantly ran on, on a wave of discontent over unemployment, deficits and the economy and they spend their initial political capital (what little of it they actually have) on a symbolic health care repeal and more abortion nonsense. New boss, same as the old boss.

Sounds like a death panel.  Someone call Sarah Palin, quick!

Quote:

Originally Posted by yt 

There's no argument for killing the mother to protect the fetus, unless those politicians are willing to make each and every orphaned fetus their sole responsibility for life.  &^%$ers

That just gave me a potentially brilliant protest tactic idea for every anti-abortion bill that ever comes up:  Cover the Capitol steps with bassinets with baby dolls with notes attached (I'd say use REAL babies, but that would probably go over less well).  Really drive in the idea of how many unwanted and orphaned children we'd be looking at if their medieval ideas were made law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fafhrd 

Quote:

Originally Posted by yt 

There's no argument for killing the mother to protect the fetus, unless those politicians are willing to make each and every orphaned fetus their sole responsibility for life.  &^%$ers

That just gave me a potentially brilliant protest tactic idea for every anti-abortion bill that ever comes up:  Cover the Capitol steps with bassinets with baby dolls with notes attached (I'd say use REAL babies, but that would probably go over less well).  Really drive in the idea of how many unwanted and orphaned children we'd be looking at if their medieval ideas were made law.

So true, but not just babies--kids, teens, young adults, and then adults entering college/the work force.  The people expending all this energy to stop abortion just cease to care about the lives/deaths of children once they're born.  The very same "conservative" types also want to strip away social services for underprivileged kids and families, a fair economy for their economic future, and law enforcement to protect them. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuddL 

That's not entirely fair.  Given their beliefs, such doctors might just as well view their "job" as protecting the fetus.

Abortion is a legal medical procedure and has been for decades. A doctor's "job", no matter there moral compass, is to carry out medical procedures when they are requested/necessary. What if I, as a doctor, had a moral/religious problem with antidepressants? Do I have grounds to refuse such medication for sufferers?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuddL 

That's not entirely fair.  Given their beliefs, such doctors might just as well view their "job" as protecting the fetus.

Abortion is a legal medical procedure and has been for decades. A doctor's "job", no matter there moral compass, is to carry out medical procedures when they are requested/necessary. What if I, as a doctor, had a moral/religious problem with antidepressants? Do I have grounds to refuse such medication for sufferers?
 

Exactly, what if the doctor was a Jehovahs Witness and refused to give blood transfusions?

Hate is a very apt word.

Why do I get the feeling that a story like this one reeeeeeally isn't going to help matters...

I'm sure the Republicans will be sensitive and ethical with a story like this and won't possibly try and blow it out of proportion or use it to their political advantage...

It's used in chemotherapy.  If the intended recipient was a chemotherapy patient, the fact that it can also be used for abortions is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuddL 

It's used in chemotherapy.  If the intended recipient was a chemotherapy patient, the fact that it can also be used for abortions is irrelevant.

Yes I'm sure Republican spokespeople and right wing talking heads will make that distinction. Intellectual honesty is their forte after all.

stelios, how is Greece this time of year? Sensible at the very least? Where should I go and what restaurants do you recommend?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelios 

Fundamentalist insanity, part 2:

 

South Dakota bill could legalize killing abortion providers in some cases

 

See what you did, you stupid liberals? You went and elected some uppity black guy as president, the fundies get motivated and this kind of stuff starts to happen.  

There's no way this can pass, and if it does pass, it will be overturned in court.  You can't legalize premeditated murder.  What kills me is that these people do this kind of stuff right out in the open, as if there's nothing wrong with it.
 

Religious extremists tend to have this "my god is greater than your god" psychosis.  It's like the scary philosophy employed by "the Family" / "the Brotherhood" that any amount of lying, cheating, stealing and committing harm to others is okay if it's done for "righteous" reasons.  Yet another example of the urgent necessity for a wall between church and state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelios 

Fundamentalist insanity, part 2:

 

South Dakota bill could legalize killing abortion providers in some cases

 

See what you did, you stupid liberals? You went and elected some uppity black guy as president, the fundies get motivated and this kind of stuff starts to happen.  

Just read about that bill...fuck that. Its absolutely rediculous. There's no way that will pass. You cant legalize premeditated murder. Fucking fundementalist republicans are out of their minds.