New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

2012 Budget - Page 4

post #151 of 174
4/13/11 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post

Great speech.  Like many I remain cautious about the follow-through, but he hit all the right points.  And again, I continue to wonder why liberals think his propensity for compromise makes him a quasi-republican or disingenuous.


 

 

Because currently, the Democrats are a centrist party--not even center-left, just center--and the Republicans are way, way, WAY out to the right. So trying to compromise lands him well on the political right. Compromise is nice, but not when the people you're trying to compromise with are lunatics. Sometimes you have to refuse to compromise if you want to stand for anything at all.

Reply
post #152 of 174
4/13/11 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post



 

Because currently, the Democrats are a centrist party--not even center-left, just center--and the Republicans are way, way, WAY out to the right. So trying to compromise lands him well on the political right. Compromise is nice, but not when the people you're trying to compromise with are lunatics. Sometimes you have to refuse to compromise if you want to stand for anything at all.




Oh I get that, but take the recent cuts.  Despite all the whining by the left that Obama caved, the numbers show he gave up very little.  Most of the spending cuts were to programs that increased spending in the wake of our economic crisis.  The fact that he passed the stimulus, and health care, are huge fucking achievements, and they are things that Republicans vehemently oppose in their entirety.

 

What liberals seem to have a problem with, is not that Obama compromises, but that he touts it.  It's not that Obama is devoid of accomplishments, or that he has abandoned his principles, but that he's not as loud and abrasive about them as the arm-chair politicos on the internet.  What evidence is there that the stimulus could have been bigger or that a public option was possible had Obama simply advocated harder?  There's none, in fact, quite the contrary.

 

Like I said, I remain cautious about the follow through on this.  If, as you have suggested, what we wind up with is half-way between his proposal and the Ryan plan, I will be seriously disappointed.  Unlike you, however, I don't think past compromises were anywhere near "right of center".

Reply
post #153 of 174
4/13/11 at 3:48pm

Great speech, but it's going to take more than that to get his agenda pushed through his own party, much less the Republicans.

 

I think what's been bugging me about his term so far is almost entirely due to reserved style and negotiating. I do believe that playing the court of public opinion does matter. Defense of ideology matters. The budget issue isn't as hard for me to swallow as the health care compromise, it's just another example. In the end, I partly blame him but really most of the pain is coming from Washington culture and Congress. There's only so much he can do when the system is working against him. And it is, which is why being more fully defensive of liberal ideology is so important. It reminds people that the conservative way of thinking is not the only valid (and is in fact often quite wrong.) He did some of that in this speech, and those sections were my favorite part of the thing. But it requires a sustained effort to get it into everybody's thick skull. Now, I have no doubt that during the campaign he'll be able to clean his opponent's clock, but as far as policy goes, the dynamics of that shift while the bills are debated. Popularity of the proposals can ebb and flow based on constituents' pleas. So it helps to have some kind of heat on your side as shit gets passed.

 

The president has always been clear that he's trying to change Washington culture and that it won't happen overnight. I think that's a laudable goal. It's just hard to connect the dots sometimes because the short game and long game hardly ever (or aren't even supposed to) sync up.

Reply
post #154 of 174
4/13/11 at 4:41pm

Oh Republican Senator Jon Kyl...thank you for making my day with you rediculous remark about how abortions account for "well over 90%" of what Planned Parenthood does. You my friend, are an idiot. You're only 87% off the mark there. And even if it were true, it wouldnt matter....because federal funding already cannot go to providing abortions. That's been true since 1976. By attacking Planned Parenthood, Republicans are attacking a vital source of women's healthcare.

Reply
post #155 of 174
4/13/11 at 8:13pm

Anyone else think it's weird that the GOP are doing ALL their policy stuff from within the budget? They don't actually want debate law. I guess it's kind of smart politics when all you have is a big bag of shit to sell.

Reply
post #156 of 174
4/13/11 at 8:36pm

Well, they've done a really good job of framing the current political climate in terms of reducing the deficit.  Even if their arguments about the immediate risk of deficit spending are bunk, people have bought into it, and are terrified of the poor poor children (ME) who will inherit this debt.  With that out of the way, they are now trying to frame these social policies as part of reducing the deficit. 


P1: Reducing the deficit is an emergency

P2: Defunding planned parenthood, NPR, public health, EPA, etc etc reduces the deficit

P3: Defunding regulatory agencies and statutes frees corporations from the shackles of regulation

P4: Freeing corporations from regulation will create jobs and increase revenue

Therefore we need to defund [insert thing GOP doesn't like here]

Reply
post #157 of 174
4/15/11 at 12:43pm

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/04/pandemonium-dems-jam-panic-republicans-with-even-more-conservative-budget.php?ref=fpa

 

 

Quote:

What was supposed to be a routine vote in the House -- to knock down an amendment authored by conservative Republicans -- turned into pandemonium on the House floor Friday, as Democrats tried to jam the plan through, and hang it around the GOP's necks.

 

The vote was on the Republican Study Committee's alternative budget -- a radical plan that annihilates the social contract in America by putting the GOP budget on steroids. Deeper tax cuts for the wealthy, more severe entitlement rollbacks.

 

Normally something like that would fail by a large bipartisan margin in either the House or the Senate. Conservative Republicans would vote for it, but it would be defeated by a coalition of Democrats and more moderate Republicans. But today that formula didn't hold. In an attempt to highlight deep divides in the Republican caucus. Dems switched their votes -- from "no" to "present."

 

Panic ensued. In the House, legislation passes by a simple majority of members voting. The Dems took themselves out of the equation, leaving Republicans to decide whether the House should adopt the more-conservative RSC budget instead of the one authored by Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan. As Dems flipped to present, Republicans realized that a majority of their members had indeed gone on the record in support of the RSC plan -- and if the vote closed, it would pass. That would be a slap in the face to Ryan, and a politically toxic outcome for the Republican party.

 

HAHA. Just by deciding to vote "present" the Democrats in the House exposed all this budget nonsense coming from the GOP as a political side-show. When they come out and call Obama's speech as hyper-partisan, it smacks me as the ultimate pot calling the kettle.

Reply
post #158 of 174
4/15/11 at 12:55pm

All of this is convincing me that Pelosi is one of the strongest house leaders in the modern era.


 

Reply
post #159 of 174
4/15/11 at 12:56pm

Hmmm...this is kind of cool, but colour me skeptical that it'll have any impact, or be seriously reported anywhere. It's nice to think (based on ElCap's post) that the Tea Party is paying attention and will wreak vengeance on the Republicans for this--and if they do, I'll gain some actual respect for them--but I suspect this is simply going to be ignored or spun into nothingness by Fox News and co.

Reply
post #160 of 174
4/15/11 at 1:11pm

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildoubt View Post

All of this is convincing me that Pelosi is one of the strongest house leaders in the modern era.


 

 


Yeah, there is something aloof about her. Like she comes from money or got botox. And rightly or wrongly it turns a lot of people off (mostly I think its because she's a woman). Either way, it makes her an easy target for the GOP because her style is not folksy. It's straight-up SF liberal without much of a sharp sense of humor to make her relatable. But no one can deny that she's really good at her job. While the Senate was dithering over legislating in 2009-10 through every single filibuster, the House was passing liberal bill after bill, basically bolstering Obama and allowing him to have one of the most productive legislative agendas of any president.

Reply
post #161 of 174
4/15/11 at 2:29pm

President caught speaking frankly on a live mic. With Audio. Here is the guy I voted for!

Quote:

"I said, 'You want to repeal health care?'" Obama revealed at the private event. "Go at it. We'll have that debate. You're not going to be able to do that by nickel-and-diming me in the budget. You think we're stupid?'"

 

Ultimately, the resolutions pushed by Republicans targeting what may be the president's most significant legislative accomplishment to date and the women's health service provider failed to advance with the larger budget deal.

 

"Put it in a separate bill," the president said he told House Speaker John Boehner and members of his staff. "We'll call it up. And if you think you can overturn my veto, try it. But don't try to sneak this through."

 

Reply
post #162 of 174
4/16/11 at 7:08am
Thread Starter 

I actually do love that audio.  Surprised hombre is able to keep his cool during all of this behind closed doors.

 

I'd personally be swearing up a storm and threatening an ebola epidemic if I was in his position.

Reply
post #163 of 174
4/17/11 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus View Post

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/04/pandemonium-dems-jam-panic-republicans-with-even-more-conservative-budget.php?ref=fpa

 

 

 

HAHA. Just by deciding to vote "present" the Democrats in the House exposed all this budget nonsense coming from the GOP as a political side-show. When they come out and call Obama's speech as hyper-partisan, it smacks me as the ultimate pot calling the kettle.


I don't want to go all crazy and think the Dems are getting strategic.  I guess stranger things have happened. 

 

Reply
post #164 of 174
4/17/11 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post

I don't want to go all crazy and think the Dems are getting strategic.  I guess stranger things have happened. 

 

 

Yeah, I can't say they'll ever be better than the Republicans at strategy. In the end, they figured out what the Dems were doing and scrambled to change their votes. If anything's illustrated the GOP's ability to master spin, the big surprise is how quickly the teabagger freshman managed to get savvy to the art of hardball politics. The result of the House negotiations speak for themselves. But, we'll see. Given how far the Ryan budget goes into class warfare on the poor, it may just be policy that ends up getting Obama a 2nd term. One can, uh, hope.

Reply
post #165 of 174
4/18/11 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus View Post

Given how far the Ryan budget goes into class warfare on the poor, it may just be policy that ends up getting Obama a 2nd term. One can, uh, hope.


I think at the end of the day people like the idea of having social security and medicare there for when they get older, etc.  At least half the population doesn't even give politics a moment's thought but I think the "conservative" ideology is so f***ing radical and anti-American that I think if the average American were to have a moment of clarity about it, they'd be at first confused and then very pissed off.  The dirty little secret is that whether people know it or not, most Americans lean "left"--at least in terms of what the "conservatives" consider "left."

Reply
post #166 of 174
4/25/11 at 5:48am
Thread Starter 

In case anybody's wondering what a REAL budget proposal looks like:

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/debt_proposals

 

The link is included in that article.  My only gripe is the lack of a much more simplified tax code.

Reply
post #167 of 174
4/25/11 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

In case anybody's wondering what a REAL budget proposal looks like:

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/debt_proposals

 

The link is included in that article.  My only gripe is the lack of a much more simplified tax code.


Yeah, but I think that was a feature not a bug.   That budget shows us how much of the public fisc has been distorted by 1) stupid tax cuts on the wealthy and 2) the wars. 

 

Reply
post #168 of 174
4/27/11 at 8:43pm

... And in other news, Sen. Reid is going to hold a vote on the Ryan budget when the Senate reconvenes. Time for that other chamber of Congress to come correct on this plan. Obviously it will fail but it will be interesting to see which GOPers end up voting for it and which don't.

Reply
post #169 of 174
4/29/11 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

In case anybody's wondering what a REAL budget proposal looks like:

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/debt_proposals

 

The link is included in that article.  My only gripe is the lack of a much more simplified tax code.


The Closer, I'm so glad you posted that link.  The reason the People's Budget could be on fire and the media wouldn't notice is that the media has deeply entrenched ties to the military industrial complex and elite America, which hates anything even remotely resembling sane economic practices.  The media won't touch this budget with a fifteen meter cattle prod, but I think if most sensible Americans were gifted with accurate, truthful and timely reporting by the network and cable news shows, they'd demand this budget by huge margins.  Once again, corporate monopolies get to create the reality we live in.

 

From the link:

 

Quote:

Mr Ryan's plan adds (by its own claims) $6 trillion to the national debt over the next decade, but promises to balance the budget by sometime in the 2030s by cutting programmes for the poor and the elderly. The Progressive Caucus's plan would (by its own claims) balance the budget by 2021 by cutting defence spending and raising taxes, mainly on rich people. Mr Ryan has been fulsomely praised for his courage. The Progressive Caucus has not.

 

I'm not really sure what "courage" is supposed to mean here, but this seems precisely backwards. For 30 years, certainly since Walter Mondale got creamed by Ronald Reagan, the most dangerous thing a politician can do has been to call for tax hikes. Politicians who call for higher taxes are punished, which is why they don't do it. I'm curious to see what adjectives people would apply to the Progressive Congressional Caucus's budget proposal. But it's hard for me to imagine the media calling a proposal to raise taxes "courageous" and "honest". And my sense is that the disparate treatment here is a structural bias rooted in class.

 

Reply
post #170 of 174
12/31/11 at 1:52pm

So, this happened:

 

uokGg.gif

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24sun4.html?_r=3&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Reply
post #171 of 174
12/31/11 at 2:11pm

Stop trying to confuse us with facts! Math is Left-Wing voodoo & the graph above is in pink & red - the colors of the Gay Communist agenda!


Edited by Art Decade - 12/31/11 at 2:24pm
Reply
post #172 of 174
12/31/11 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Decade View Post

Stop trying try to confuse us with facts! Math is Left-Wing voodoo & the graph above is in pink & red - the colors of the Gay Communist agenda!



.............and it kinda looks like a penis too.

 

the GOP would never put out a chart shaped like a penis....the GOP like their charts shaped like a pie....a pie that they can repeatedly insert all their data into...and everyone knows the best pie charts are located in men's bathrooms at rest stops and/or the airport.

 

 

biggrin.gif

Reply
post #173 of 174
12/31/11 at 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post

.............and it kinda looks like a penis too.

 

the GOP would never put out a chart shaped like a penis....GOP charts look like 'glory holes', you know the kind that are in airport bathrooms....

 

biggrin.gif

 

Holy crap, I think you might be onto something here:

2012-republican-presidential-prediction.png

All I did was Google "GOP pie chart"...and this came up.

Reply
post #174 of 174
12/31/11 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Decade View Post

 

Holy crap, I think you might be onto something here:

2012-republican-presidential-prediction.png

All I did was Google "GOP pie chart"...and this came up.


LOL

 

damn, you're too fast...I went back and edited my post ....

 

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Political Discourse