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RED STATE - Post release

post #1 of 48
Thread Starter 

I'll give Kevin Smith a little more credit for stepping out of his comfort zone and making a movie that doesn't look or really sound like any of previous work, but this runs out of steam about half way through and goes out with a whimper.  Goodman and Parks acquit themselves nicely but the movie seems pretty aimless - in the end I'm not sure if Smith is more upset with religion or the government. 

 

Regarding the ending I'm not sure if he ran out of ideas and/or money.  It was trying very hard to be 'Burn After Reading'.

 

 

 

 

post #2 of 48

Toyed briefly with the thought of catching it at the Wilbur in Boston tonight. The more I hear about it, the more I think I can wait till October.

post #3 of 48

Caught this is Indy last week.  Loved it.  It is by far, Smith's best work, at least technically speaking.  It's faced paced, concise, and literally exploding with action...yeah, action.  At one point in the movie I started thinking about that scene in Hot Shots: Part Deux, where they are counting the number of kills(more than "Robocop"!).  Spoilers....the last section of the movie is literally non-stop shooting.  I mean the volume of gun fire that was on display was not what I was expecting from Smith.  If I didn't know this was a Kevin Smith movie, I probably never would have guessed it.  I am not a fan of "shaky cam" a la Bourne, but something about this worked in Red States favor. I think it also helps that the movie is just under 90 minutes so it doesn't have a chance to wear on you.

 

While I don't think the film as a whole has any chance at an Oscar, I would not be surprised if Parks, Goodman(especially), and even Leo got some recognition for their work.  Their performances are that good.  Plus, they all seem to be relishing their parts and having a great time.  Another thing I loved about the flick is that no character is sacred.  Spoilers...people that you expect to live die early, people you expect to hate you start to see their side and feel bad for them, and even the "good guys" are colored with grey.  No one is safe in this flick and the ending....so good.

 

I would pay to see this again in the theater.  Mainly because I want to see how other people react to it.  It definitely exceeded my expectations.

post #4 of 48

Oscars ahahahahaha

 

Full disclosure: RCA once mounted a serious defence of Kevin Smith by pointing out that he hadn't anally raped an underage girl like Roman Polanski.

post #5 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post

Oscars ahahahahaha

 

Full disclosure: RCA once mounted a serious defence of Kevin Smith by pointing out that he hadn't anally raped an underage girl like Roman Polanski.



I'm pretty sure Polanski didn't anally rape an underage girl...that would be disgusting...he just drugged her and fucked her....c'mon, the man who made The Tenant doesn't do anal...EVER

post #6 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCA View Post





I'm pretty sure Polanski didn't anally rape an underage girl...that would be disgusting...he just drugged her and fucked her....c'mon, the man who made The Tenant doesn't do anal...EVER

 

Fact: Anal Rape.
 

 

post #7 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post



 

Fact: Anal Rape.
 

 



Oh man, he really IS a monster!!! 

 

hahaha...

 

post #8 of 48

Surely this means we've been wrong about Kevin Smith all along!

post #9 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post

Surely this means we've been wrong about Kevin Smith all along!



I guess when you see the movie you can decide for yourself.  I don't know what it is though, I have this weird feeling that your mind is already made up.

 

Oh well, anyone else see this yet?

 

 

 

post #10 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCA View Post


I guess when you see the movie you can decide for yourself.  I don't know what it is though, I have this weird feeling that your mind is already made up.

 


 

Funny - I get the exact same impression from you!

post #11 of 48

What is this with every obviously shit movie being singled out for Oscars by Chewers? Is this real or some inside joke I'm not privy to?

post #12 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

What is this with every obviously shit movie being singled out for Oscars by Chewers? Is this real or some inside joke I'm not privy to?



Like?

post #13 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCA View Post

 

While I don't think the film as a whole has any chance at an Oscar, I would not be surprised if Parks, Goodman(especially), and even Leo got some recognition for their work.  Their performances are that good.  Plus, they all seem to be relishing their parts and having a great time.  Another thing I loved about the flick is that no character is sacred.  Spoilers...people that you expect to live die early, people you expect to hate you start to see their side and feel bad for them, and even the "good guys" are colored with grey.  No one is safe in this flick and the ending....so good.

 

 

Like this
 

 

post #14 of 48

 Inherent in my question is a request for examples other than the one in this thread, the one you were responding to.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious what else you have in mind.

post #15 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post

 Inherent in my question is a request for examples other than the one in this thread, the one you were responding to.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious what else you have in mind.



A guy in the Scott Pilgrim thread seriously argued that the entire cast of Scott Pilgrim should receive an Oscar, that's one that comes to mind...

post #16 of 48

I think I remember that!

post #17 of 48

Watched this On Demand this evening.  Was alright, but for the long uninteresting full of exposition dialog scenes.  The scene where John Goodman is talking on the phone.  My god.  So fucking boring.  Yeah, I get it.  When it comes to the action of the film, it hits the same beat over and over again to the point where nothing is surprising. 

post #18 of 48

Agreed. As far as I'm concerned Smith's strengths have always been dialogue and character. RED STATE underwhelms on both counts. Frankly, Parks' Cooper is the only remotely well-drawn character (and I suspect that has more to do with the performance than the script) but even he is largely a cartoon. Just a vivid, fascinating one. Everyone else is one-note filler.

 

And that jokey Burn After Reading-esque ending is jarring as all hell, and criminally wastes the great scene leading into it. 

 

It's not a terrible film. It has interesting qualities and some neat ideas, but it feels undercooked, rushed and too small.

post #19 of 48

Just saw this On Demand. Honestly it wasn't bad but it was one of those films where if it was a first time indie filmmaker you would leave the theater thinking that you were curious to see what lies ahead for this guy. Sadly this filmmaker has 8 films under his belt. Still it was better than his last couple films and he had the balls to kill off pretty much every single sympathetic character while also making you dislike everyone involved. He deserves a little credit.....only a little though.

post #20 of 48

The ad on CHUD calls it "an action-thriller by @ThatKevinSmith."

 

Which makes me go "huh?" on two levels, (A) "action-thriller"? Wasn't this supposed to be a horror movie?, and (B) this has got to be the first time a director has been credited in an ad by his Twitter handle.

post #21 of 48

Never mind. Saw it. It really isn't a horror movie. Which is odd, because wasn't he talking it up as one forever?

post #22 of 48

I liked it. It's a very strange movie, and worth seeing simply because you just don't see movies that change every fifteen minutes so completely. It's a shame that everyone is so completely obsessed with Kevin Smith, because free of that, this would be an interesting curio. With that mammoth back story, it's just about impossible to view objectively.

 

Michael Parks is really good in it. Hell, a lot of the cast does good work. There's more dudes getting shot than The Departed. And the ending is pretty good. And it's got two people from Breaking Bad in it. Moderate pass, won't ever see it again.

post #23 of 48

I've ignored Kevin Smith's last two films so I was surprised that I actually liked this. It's a bit of mess, tonally inconsistent, really long scenes of exposition but despite all this the movie mostly works. It's better if you think of the movie as a really violent TV movie since has about the same type of pacing, especially Michael Parks' great but overlong monologue and the previously noted scene with Goodman. You can tell Smith had more ambitious plans for the movie, since this could've been his second Dogma or in fact is his second Dogma (I don't know what the consensus on Dogma is 'round these parts). Some scenes actually build a good deal of dread and are kind of disturbing. Basically the movie is kind of uncategorizable and that's kind of cool, I put in with The Devil's Rejects and The Last Circus, in that the movies are really hard to pin down and don't fit into any one genre. Oh, and I totally liked this more than The Last Circus which surprises me just as much as it surprises anyone else.

post #24 of 48

I am a big fan of Dogma, but I  was raised Catholic. That could have something to do with it. I even have a Buddy Christ in my car.

post #25 of 48

Wow, Kev made a movie without one dick or fart joke. Seriously flawed, but it's lean, mean, and kinda badass.

 

I'll agree though, the scenes with Goodman on the phone, zzzzzzzz.

post #26 of 48

I'm surprised to see anyone has anything positive to say about this absolutely pointless and inept piece of filmmaking beyond "Parks and Goodman were solid". Smith isn't telling a story here; he's launching a graceless and limp tirade against the Westboro Baptist Church. Intentions aren't a problem until they usurp the point of a narrative art form, which is what happens here. This isn't a film about three kids and an ATF agent being entangled in the machinations of a congregation of religious whackos, it's a film about how much Smith hates Fred Phelps. Everything about the art of storytelling is ignored so Smith can satisfy his own need to assail the WBC. He and I probably both despise Phelps and his ilk equally, but that's not enough to win me over.

post #27 of 48

This is an odd little movie. It switches main characters every twenty minutes, not allowing the audience to settle in or get to know anyone. The script suffers from telling and not showing. The entire scenario at the compound lacks any real motivation or sense.

 

Still, there are a few great performances here, mostly Parks and Goodman. It has balls, especially by having a faux-deus ex machina end the gunplay, but feels too preachy. Ironically. Smith is just too obvious here, and some of the dialogue (like Goodman, when describing the two dogs fighting over a turkey leg, calling it "discards") sounds like words no human being has ever said aloud in that context. Reminded me of Eliza Dushku saying "vitals" in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back

 

I used to love Smith's movies, but now I realize they were aimed at 15 year olds. Red State feels like it's written by a 15 year old, but at least the camera work has improved.

post #28 of 48

I'll have a DVD review up for this by the end of tonight. I suspect Kevin Smith fans will not be happy.

post #29 of 48

Finally, someone taking a stand against Kevin Smith. About time, internet.

post #30 of 48

Hey look, it's Arjen the one-man "I don't even like Kevin Smith that much, honest!" Kevin Smith Defence Counsel.

 

Seriously dude. If people not liking Kevin Smith is old/mean/pathetic, then what does that make your need to point out how old/mean/pathetic it is? DVD Reviewer Man just hinted it wouldn't be a positive review, and you bound in here to get your "Shame on you Internet" act on.

post #31 of 48

Seriously.  Of all the people that get shit on you rush to Smith's defense?  Defend M. Night or somebody interesting. 

post #32 of 48

Oh, believe me, it's my least favorite thing I do online, which is really impressive. But I would add that I generally consider you (Andrew) to be a smart and interesting presence on the boards and Kevin Smith reduces you to a mouth-breathing AICN whine troll, and you're not the only one. I think it's fair to say that I hate Kevin Smith too at this point, mostly because my experience of his stuff is filtered almost entirely through the pettiest, most self-righteous, retarded, crybaby bullshit opinion pieces I've ever wasted my time with online, the kind of stuff that makes me feel like spending time in a movie message forum is a serious misuse of my life. Maybe DVD reviewer guy has really come up with a really cracking piece of original journalism on the man, but I'll never know, because I'm spent on these.

 

What does it make me? It fucking diminishes me, a lot, but not as much as it diminishes the fanboys pretending they're saying something meaningful or intelligent by slamming Kevin Smith. Seriously, it's worse than George Lucas at this point. Lucas just takes it, like a dying animal. Smith and the haters just scream inanities at each other in a howling cyclone of the worst shit ever. And also, fuck you for prompting me to respond at this length. I gypsy curse you.

post #33 of 48

I'm all gypsy-cursed out, man. I'm getting thinner and fatter depending on the day of the week, I keep turning into a wolf, I got lamias coming out my ass....do your worst!

 

I resent being called an AICN whine troll, really. I'd be happy to engage with Smith and his films. But you can't be critical any more without a platoon of Smodcast listeners damning his movies with faint praise and getting worked up about people being mean to their favourite guy. He's earnt the meanness. He's made a career out of dishing out meanness and snark and bitchery in his podcasts and talks, all the while hiding behind a shield of insincere self-deprecation that crumbles as soon as someone dares to legitimately criticise him. Why the people responding to him are the ones that always get the rough side of your tongue, as opposed to the serially underachieving manchild provoking such responses, is beyond me. I mean, I rarely write more than one line about Smith - this is probably the longest post I've made about the guy in two years or so - but I'm a troll because I respond to the silly fervour and protectiveness that the guy engenders in his fanbase? Fuck that. Sure, we can turn the other cheek - but why not do that over every damn subject raised in the frivolous world of the movie mesageboard? Why does this particular Cult Of Personality get a pass?

 

 

post #34 of 48
You're not wrong about Smith, honestly. And I guess my response is twofold. First off, I don't listen to his podcast or visit his site, and really the most of my contact with him is his movies, which I don't generally mind, and the incredibly vociferous, incredibly predictable op-eds that I see on my usual favorite sites, like Chud or Badass, and then the same tone repeated ad naseum in the forums. And secondly, that tone, without fail, represents the worst these sites and forums have to offer. Obviously I'm letting it bother me, and I could just never read Smith threads, but it's like a toothache or something. I suppose I could work on that.
post #35 of 48

Honestly, it's more the ongoing contortions of his fans to justify his ever-worsening output that rile me. Smith is what he is at this point - it's when I see supposedly intelligent movie-watchers granting him such leeway because he's, like, one of us, dude that I feel compelled to respond.

post #36 of 48

The most frustrating thing about Red State is that, at its core, there is a nice idea for a horror movie. But nobody can argue that Smith fumbles almost from the get-go. There was a moment near the end where I thought he could slightly redeem himself and I actually started to get a little interested. But then it turned out to literally be a practical joke, and as the movie ends with a fellow prisoner telling the Preacher to shut the fuck up, I wanted to say the same thing to Smith.

post #37 of 48

I used to be a Smith defender.  I take him for what he is now.  He's a guy that makes movies.  His comedies are ok to good at best now, and Red State was ok, but forgettable in my opinion.  There were things I hated in Red State( I love parks, but his one speech just went on and on and on and on).  I think the pass on Smith is a pass most people give to a lot of directors.  He started with a bang.  I love clerks.  I thought it was high brow in concept, low brow in dialogue and fired on every cylinder for someone who did quite a bit of retail in my younger years.  Chasing Amy had heart, and enough humor to, as well as a spot on performance by Jason Lee.  Other than that, his other movies are very questionable.  He is a fun guy to hear talk, and I believe is a nerd with good intentions for the fan world, but he long ago became the thing he used to bad mouth, the studio.  He is almost a junior Lucas, trying to live off a brand he made, but that brand doesn't have the bank or longevity of Star Wars.  

He needs to stop talking about retiring, and make something good again.  I don't have any reason to hate the guy, but he has long ago fallen out of the scope of must watch, more to the point of I'll wait until video or streaming.

post #38 of 48

But he's not a guy that makes movies any more.  He's a middle aged fat guy who smokes pot all day and makes a living by podcasting about anything.  His response to failure in his career has been to roll over and give up instead of manning the fuck up and standing up for another round and improving.  I'm not trying to attack Kevin Smith to troll or for the fun of it, it's genuinely how I feel.  That's really my biggest problem with Smith these days.

post #39 of 48

 

You're right.  He is doing the Hit Somebody as his supposed swan song, but it's not due until 2013.  I met the guy quite a few times during the Mallrats to Dogma stage of his career.  At the time, I was genuinely impressed by him being a realistic type person.  He remembered my friend and I a year after first meeting him at a convention.  As it went further into his career, everything became more and more fake.  He also started trying to cash in on every little thing.  His community got very blind, for the most part.  I also agree that his movies seem to continue to get worse.  The humor becomes cheaper and easier, the character development is lost in the attempt at strong dialogue and his attempt at leaving his core didn't do much more than take up time (I don't think Red State was horrible, but it was not memorable).
I have some great memories of Smith and his various crew from his early days, but I don't think I'll jump to his defense.  I too have seen a whole lot of bashing, and while I would not like to admit it, it may be warranted.  And I will throw this in, the "I'm retiring" after hit somebody is crap.  It will never happen.  And if he does stop directing, than it just proves everyone right that says he rolls over and gives up.  
post #40 of 48

How much of a failure is Smith though? He can still get a movie greenlit, he can get actors like Bruce Fucking Willis to star in his films, he still has his fans (retarded they maybe, but they must be still willing to drop some coin on Jay and Silent Bob "merchandise"), he gets crowds at his college appearances, he gets to hang out with Benn Affleck! What more could a man want?!

 

Seriously I think Smith's life is pretty sweet. The fact that we don't like his product shouldn't really matter to him anymore. What is hilarious yet sad is that it very clearly does matter to him.

post #41 of 48

How easily did Red State come together really though?  Every movie is a fight to put together but it took Smith AGES to get that thing together.  Hit Somebody is such a struggle that Sean William Scott jumped ship for a hockey goon comedy that could get its shit together.

post #42 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

 

Seriously I think Smith's life is pretty sweet. The fact that we don't like his product shouldn't really matter to him anymore. What is hilarious yet sad is that it very clearly does matter to him.


Yeah, he's pretty much become an indie version of his idol George Lucas.

 

post #43 of 48

This might be Smith's most intriguing film, but I hesitate to call it good, and I was distracted by the seemingly dozens of recognizable character actors that had a couple of lines apiece. Parks, Goodman and Leo give committed performances, but it's constantly undermined by the lame "stoned guy trying to bring the truth to the sheeple" tone of Smith's writing.

post #44 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

How easily did Red State come together really though?  Every movie is a fight to put together but it took Smith AGES to get that thing together.

I think he started writing it about 5 or 6 years ago so not ages. He had some trouble getting funding but as soon as he got serious about it he found it.

post #45 of 48

This is like watching a grown man finally learn the alphabet.  It's an achievement, but he still can't read.

 

I felt like the movie was half baked, like there was a serious point it was trying to make, but didn't have the cinematic chops to make that point work withing the context of the narrative.  Technically it reminded me of something I would've watched in film class from a fellow filmmaker who didn't really belong there...ham-fisted is what comes to mind.

 

It was like Smith trying to channel Tarantino (insane tone changes, characters coming in and out of the story, self aware and lengthy dialogue, religious musings, lots of violence) and doing it...I wont say badly, because it's pretty much his best film, but he does a poor job of imitating a master.

 

It's certainly watchable and has some interesting things going on in it, but it's too inept and doesn't really go anywhere.  

 

As an aside, I'm currently in the middle of reading Smith's new book.  He explains some of his decision making regarding retirement, and I can sort of see why he's doing it.  He reasons that he's only got dick and fart movies in him, and that he's tired of doing those, and rather than become a studio journeyman director (Warners offered him plenty of directing assignments), he said he'd rather retire from filmmaking and become an "artist", whatever that means (he doesn't really specify).  He says he's had 20 years and is amazed he got that far, and honestly I'm amazed he made it that far too...but he's not a very talented filmmaker, so I'm not going to miss him.


Edited by Ambler - 7/21/12 at 3:23pm
post #46 of 48

Just watched this. it was probably Smith's best film since Chasing Amy which really isn't saying much. Parks was great, Goodman and Leo were alright. I guess I "liked" it but it was pretty uneven.

post #47 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Blank View Post

Toyed briefly with the thought of catching it at the Wilbur in Boston tonight. The more I hear about it, the more I think I can wait till October.

Did you end up going to the October show? I was in town on vacation and caught it interestingly enough. He spoke a bit about this movie (OK maybe I had a couple drinks and forgot what happened) but what stands out more and I can't remember where I heard/saw this was that Smith initially wanted a different ending but was forced into changing it at the last minute.

 

Sure this movie has flaws and Smith is no George Lucas but part of me can't blame Smith so much because he has to answer to someone too and can only really do so much of what he wants to, you know?

post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

This is like watching a grown man finally learn the alphabet.  It's an achievement, but he still can't read.

 

I felt like the movie was half baked, like there was a serious point it was trying to make, but didn't have the cinematic chops to make that point work withing the context of the narrative.  Technically it reminded me of something I would've watched in film class from a fellow filmmaker who didn't really belong there...ham-fisted is what comes to mind.

 

It was like Smith trying to channel Tarantino (insane tone changes, characters coming in and out of the story, self aware and lengthy dialogue, religious musings, lots of violence) and doing it...I wont say badly, because it's pretty much his best film, but he does a poor job of imitating a master.

 

It's certainly watchable and has some interesting things going on in it, but it's too inept and doesn't really go anywhere.  

 

As an aside, I'm currently in the middle of reading Smith's new book.  He explains some of his decision making regarding retirement, and I can sort of see why he's doing it.  He reasons that he's only got dick and fart movies in him, and that he's tired of doing those, and rather than become a studio journeyman director (Warners offered him plenty of directing assignments), he said he'd rather retire from filmmaking and become an "artist", whatever that means (he doesn't really specify).  He says he's had 20 years and is amazed he got that far, and honestly I'm amazed he made it that far too...but he's not a very talented filmmaker, so I'm not going to miss him.

 

I sometimes like Smith more than most, but "This is like watching a grown man finally learn the alphabet" is gold.

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