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The prospect, faint as it is right now, of a good JL movie is much more exciting to me than the Avengers movie. Though this strategy will spectacularly crash, I'm afraid.
This feels like a bad idea. But I'm feeling cautious about the Avengers too. At least Nolan is going to be able to finish off his Batman story. Wonder what will happen to this project if Green Lantern and Superman under perform.
Nothing will top the Bruce Timm animated stuff but this does get my blood pumping. I know Batman \ Superman and Wonder Woman are the leaders of the Justice League, mostly because they're the big 3 DC but I like the idea that this is a Green Lantern \ Superman formed team who throw out the batsignal and lasso up an Amazonian warrior* to bring us an epic CGI laden battle.
For the record, perfect villian? Eclipso. All you gotta do is make your leads evil and have them battle each other.. no extra CGI required but I'm sure it will involve aliens sooooo generic.
* beat fled in here.
I'm biased because I just think, all things considered, these team-ups and shared universes don't work well in the cinema landscape.
Wonder what will happen to this project if Green Lantern and Superman under perform.
Death. I'm personally disinterested in a JLA movie, I hardly get into the concept of the JLA in the comics. Also, I think what the Avengers film does or doesn't do will probably be a deciding factor in a JLA film moving forward. Then there's the whole superhero movie bubble bursting, something I can sort of imagine happening in 2012.
In order for this to even have a snowball's chance in hell of working, they have to absolutely nail Superman this time out. I'm not so sure they have that covered. There isn't any talk of setting up the tone or substance of the DCU through the Superman franchise. I know that WB is hoping GL does a lot of that world-building, so at the very least, any reboot of Superman will have to be compatible with what Campbell and Reynolds are doing there.
Why not just leave Batman out of this. Do the JLA film, without Batman. I'd be fine with that. Let Batman do his own thing.
Something tells me Batman dies at the end of TDKR.
Why not just leave Batman out of this. Do the JLA film, without Batman. I'd be fine with that. Let Batman do his own thing.
Something tells me Batman dies at the end of TDKR.
The trilogy is done regardless of Batman dying or not, so he'll be getting rebooted for the next film (regardless). More Batman films are going to happen sooner rather than later (regardless), so it make as much sense as anything else to slide that into your big event movie, which is recontextualizing these heroes anyway.
The trilogy is done regardless of Batman dying or not, so he'll be getting rebooted for the next film (regardless). More Batman films are going to happen sooner rather than later (regardless), so it make as much sense as anything else to slide that into your big event movie, which is recontextualizing these heroes anyway.
what's wrong with making more sequels. Sure, Nolan may not be back, but give it to another director to take over. Batman has a long history, and rogue gallery of villians that they could take from.
what's wrong with making more sequels. Sure, Nolan may not be back, but give it to another director to take over. Batman has a long history, and rogue gallery of villians that they could take from.
Bale's out, Nolan's done, and by all accounts the story ends too definitively to continue (death or otherwise). Plus, why push a good aesthetic past its lifespan? Let someone new come in and do their vision, keep it clean. Diminishing returns and all that. As long as we can get away from the fucking origin story every time, this should be a good trend.
Bale's out, Nolan's done, and by all accounts the story ends too definitively to continue (death or otherwise). Plus, why push a good aesthetic past its lifespan? Let someone new come in and do their vision, keep it clean. Diminishing returns and all that. As long as we can get away from the fucking origin story every time, this should be a good trend.
Agreed. I'm not against origin stories outright, but I like the idea of different (and great) filmmakers being allowed into the Batman (or other heroes) sandbox for little stand-alone films that assume we know the history and context of the character.
I find it funny how Nolan has become their go to superhero guy, because I'm convinced he doesn't really give much of a shit about the genre and only got involved with them because he's cunning enough to know which way the wind was blowing that would get him ahead. The Dark Knight is a classic example of a superhero movie made by someone who didn't actually want to make a superhero movie.
I find it funny how Nolan has become their go to superhero guy, because I'm convinced he doesn't really give much of a shit about the genre and only got involved with them because he's cunning enough to know which way the wind was blowing that would get him ahead. The Dark Knight is a classic example of a superhero movie made by someone who didn't actually want to make a superhero movie.
Yeah, I agree with this to a certain extent. He chose a character he could tolerate and then bent the material to his will. His involvement with Superman is probably little more than a favor coupled with a power grab, but he's intimated an affection for Donner's film, so there's that too. Nothing wrong with being shrewd in his business.
That reminds me, I didn't remark on this before, and it's little off topic, but it's interesting to me. Nolan has said time and time again that he's a one project at a time kind of filmmaker, yet, one or two weeks before the Academy Awards there was the news that he was going to try to do the Howard Hughes biopic that got shelved when The Aviator took the wind out of its sails. I found that to be an *oddly* timed bit of news in the midst of TDKR talk and Inception's impending night at the Oscars. I could be completely wrong, but I felt this sneaking suspicion that that was a deliberate leak, one last bit of Inception compaining to let the Academy know that Nolan was still very much a serious filmmaker and wasn't all about being Michael Bay's smarter brother. Either way, lest his career hits the skids, I fully expect TDKR to be Nolan's last one-on-one dance with men in tights.
I'd love to see a version of Batman that is faithful to the Nolan version and doesn't completely break away from everything established there, but allows for a more generous world of costumed crimefighters with superpowers. Batman can be the lone wolf detective with all the cool tech pretty safely within that context.
Eh. I don't like the Marvel approach at all. This approach is somewhat like mainstream comics. Its a never ending franchise. They'll only end it when one flops. And this makes for poor story tellling since there is no end and no satisfaction. The point of a story is getting to the end.
Nolans Batman in that regard is an anomaly in that it will have an actual end. Its one of the reasons it'll probably be one of the best superhero movies. I can't think of any other superhero franchise that actually ended on its own terms.
Ideally, all these superhero movies would be trilogies, with clear beginnings and endings. And obviously, they'd be rebooted by the studios. The current system is just horrible and produces formless franchises and unnecessary films.
Him picking Snyder for Superman was interesting as well because it shows quite a savvy corporate mindedness - they gave him power and rather than try to push his own sensibilities he picked an entirely different guy who seemed like a fairly safe bet to make it a nice success for his bosses. Again I put that down to him not really having much personal interest in making superhero movies except when he can use one to smuggle big budget crime epics into theatres. But I'm not knocking him for any of this; he seems to use his powers for good instead of evil for the most part
I'd love to see a version of Batman that is faithful to the Nolan version and doesn't completely break away from everything established there, but allows for a more generous world of costumed crimefighters with superpowers. Batman can be the lone wolf detective with all the cool tech pretty safely within that context.
This.
There's no reason for a full-on reboot. As far as origin stories and world building goes, what Nolan did is pretty solid and can remain definitive for a while. They can recast the character and just pick it up from there, still adhering to the "real" aesthetic established by Nolan - while allowing for more fantastical elements to bleed in.
It's all about recontextualizing things.
But 2013 is way too soon. In order for a good movie to come of this, it would have to be in production now and that's madness.
Ideally, they make a Wonder Woman movie first.
Also, it would be a better idea to "re-introduce" Batman through a World's Finest movie co-starring the new Superman before they go full on with the JLA.
A Batman reboot doesn't necessarily have to establish the origin again, but the world he exists in post-Nolan definitely needs to stand by itself so as not to be confused, if not exactly be a total 180. A great and very simple shorthand for this would be through costume design.
There are some people that still think that Nolan's films have something to do with the previous four, a reboot so soon needs to work extra hard to differentiate itself.
Screw it, I would LOVE to see a JLA movie. I'm sure Nolan's involvement would be "this sucks, this sucks, that doesn't", and whether they choose to listen to him or not. Re-booting Batman through this movie makes sense. Also makes sense as a possible launch pad for Flash and Wonder Woman. and goddammit, Aquaman better be in this crap. Make the bad guy Darkseid somehow, and BAM! Butts in seats. Fanboys interested. My ticket is bought. I don't see the problem with this.
And can people stop predicting the end of comic book movies? It's been 11 years since X-Men. Things haven't slowed down yet. I don't see it happening. Some characters will do well, some will bomb. There will always be Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, and X-Men movies in development SOMEWHERE. The others will come and go. I like some of these movies, and I don't like some. Who cares if they keep making them? If you don't like them, stop seeing them, stop talking about them on message boards.
I'm biased because I just think, all things considered, these team-ups and shared universes don't work well in the cinema landscape.
I love ya, Joey, but I have to ask: what do you base that opinion on?
Because as far as I know, the shared universes idea hasn't ever been tried before.
Speaking from a pragmatic, "business" perspective (so to speak), I think this is easily do-able. You get Cavill and Reynolds to anchor the film as known quantities (assuming Lantern performs) and fill the rest of the League with new heroes that can be spun off into their own franchises. Audience response to the characters will determine which ones get that treatment. Kids love the Flash? Give 'em a Flash film.
I'd like to see this happen strictly because its the only way I'll ever see Martian Manhunter on film. But knowing my luck, they'd decide not to include him and use Red Tornado instead. This, despite the fact that Morrison's initial run on the JLA (the White Martian story arc, wonderfully brought to life by Timm in the animated series) is pretty much the perfect template for a Justice League film. Who doesn't want to see Batman take down a group of psychotic martians using only his wits? Communists, that's who.
Will this put an end to David E. Kelley's Wonder Woman before it even airs?
A Batman reboot doesn't necessarily have to establish the origin again, but the world he exists in post-Nolan definitely needs to stand by itself so as not to be confused, if not exactly be a total 180.
This goes back to what I was saying earlier about a World's Finest film.
Without necessarily doing a new, Batman stand-alone film, they could do a Superman/Batman movie after Snyder's Superman. One that takes a page from John Byrne's reboot... Have Superman meet Batman while investigating something or other (either in Gotham or in Metropolis. It doesn't matter.) And, obviously, Superman is not keen on Batman's ways at first. But they gradually come to understand each other and are friends by the end of it.
This way, Batman can work based on audiences' established notions of the character without having to completely reboot his specific franchise. And you can recast the role because no specific references need to be made to any of the Nolan films.
After that, the next Batman movie can feature this new guy and be completely in tune with the new setup ... and there's no need to backtrack. As long as they find a consistent tone. The Batman comics have always been generally less fantastical than the Supermans. But we still accept that they exist in the same world. The same can work here.
ETA - I say do this before a JLA. First, because you need more time to really work something like that out properly (look how much time they're taking at Marvel - and that still has people biting their nails). And also because I think Batman is a character important enough that he should first be reintroduced more individually... through Superman.
In some ways, using the Snyder Superman as a springboard for this film reboot is very much like what Byrne did in '86. And they should take the same kind of care that was taken there in order for it to work really well.
I love ya, Joey, but I have to ask: what do you base that opinion on?
Honestly, nothing. Ha.
Other than the sheer logistics and the fact that you then are already kind of hemming in and placing restrictions on someone who wants to do, say, a Flash film or something. It's just more entry points for the studio to step in and be like, "well, you've got to have _____ and _______ because we're setting up X number of projects," etc.
But you're right, I have no evidence to base that on because it hasn't really been done. Other than Favreau becoming frustrated with Iron Man as a result of this kind of stuff, apparently.
It's also just a lot of personal preference. My interest level drops exponentially when you venture outside the "main" group of costumed superheros. I was never a big comics guy. So while I absolutely love Superman and Batman and Spiderman, I don't give two hoots about Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Flash, etc.
That's certainly not to say there isn't potential there or that they can't make a JLA movie that blows me away. But I think it'll be quite a feat just because of the logistics of the film industry. ESPECIALLY in terms of spinning off characters and keeping the "universe" cohesive and intact without it becoming a big, commercialized mess.
Eh, lets see how the next 24 months go for Marvel studios, coupled with the returns on GL and the buzz on Superman before we start believing this JL film is going to happen.
...a Batman reboot is a given tho for sure.
Eh, lets see how the next 24 months go for Marvel studios, coupled with the returns on GL and the buzz on Superman before we start believing this JL film is going to happen.
...a Batman reboot is a given tho for sure.
They will fall flat on their face (ala Batman & Robin) before they let that character have a rest.
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny
Then there's the whole superhero movie bubble bursting, something I can sort of imagine happening in 2012.
Are we certain this will even happen? After all, we are entering our TENTH straight year of constant superhero movie releases....
2002 - Blade II, Spider-Man
2003 - Daredevil, X-Men II, Hulk, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
2004 - Elektra, The Punisher, Hellboy, Spider-Man II, The Incredibles, Blade: Trinity, Catwoman
2005 - Fantastic Four, Batman Begins, Man-Thing, Sky High
2006 - X-Men: The Last Stand, Superman Returns
2007 - Ghost Rider, Spider-Man III, Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, TMNT
2008 - Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Hellboy II: The Golden Army, The Dark Knight, Punisher: War Zone, The Spirit
2009 - Watchmen, X-Men Origins: Wolverine
2010 - Kick-Ass, Iron Man II, Jonah Hex, Defendor
2011 - The Green Hornet, Super, Thor, X-Men: First Class, Green Lantern, Captain America: The First Avenger, Dredd
2012 - Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, The Amazing Spider-Man, The Avengers, The Dark Knight Rises, Superman: The Man of Steel, The Wolverine*, Daredevil Reboot*
2013 - Iron Man III, Runaways, Deadpool*, Fantastic Four Reboot*, Ant-Man*
* - projects that will likely hit screens that year or the one after. Marvel & DC both have boundless other projects/reboots in development at the moment as well.
That's not including the 90s releases of Batman 2-4, X-Men, Blade, TMNT 1-3, etc.......................or the countless television properties and DTV animated releases that have been bombarding the public since the early 90s. I also left countless non-superhero comic adaptations off the list.....................V For Vendetta, Scott Pilgrim, The Losers, Tintin, Wanted, Sin City, Red, Road to Perdition, History of Violence, etc. You also have "original" superhero based TV programs hitting left and right: Heroes, No Ordinary Family, The Cape, etc. None of them have stuck (or been particularly good) so far, but one is bound to eventually. I wouldn't be surprised if I forgot a projects few as well.
I'd say we are well beyond the point of "superheroes" becoming a legitimate genre. Some obviously do way more business than others (usually to do with quality and/or character popularity), but I really don't see the bubble bursting anytime soon. The number of lesser known characters getting their own solo adventures might lessen due to dwindling returns, but the core characters will continue to stay in theaters at this point. They might reboot to drop the budget from time to time (like the new Spidey flick), but they are not going away. If they were, it would have happened already. The only change that might come in the future are budget restrictions if some of the bigger projects fail to meet expectations.
Also, no matter what the final film's quality is, I can't see The Avengers tanking.....................or a Justice League film for that matter. As long as they keep the budgets from reaching astronomical heights and are action-packed, they are in the clear.
You forgot "Son Of The Mask."
A few points -
1) One of two things will happen in a Justice League movie- either the audience will keep wondering, why doesn't Superman just do EVERYTHING? Or, Kryptonite will come up for the eight billionth time.
2) They would have to change Batman drastically. Nolan's Batman isn't gadget-y enough to hang with the bigger heroes.
3) These long term superhero plans always seem contingent on every movie being warmly received. Marvel has two big gambles on the horizon, but they at least have Iron Man. What if Green Lantern is a lemon and Superman costs too much and impresses too few again? Do you shut down?
4) When will the other shoe drop regarding Nolan? I want to know what batshit crazy movie he wants WB to fund after The Dark Knight Rises. THAT movie will probably be the most exciting film to come from this plan.
4) When will the other shoe drop regarding Nolan? I want to know what batshit crazy movie he wants WB to fund after The Dark Knight Rises. THAT movie will probably be the most exciting film to come from this plan.
Very much that. Especially taking Inception into consideration negotiations will consist of WB literally handing Nolan a blank check. "There you go Chris. See you at the premiere."
Very much that. Especially taking Inception into consideration negotiations will consist of WB literally handing Nolan a blank check. "There you go Chris. See you at the premiere."
This is what excites me more than anything. Nolan isn't going to toss his name on various superhero properties (Superman, Justice League, another Batman, etc.) without being compensated creatively and financially...........................though I'm think the former means more than the latter at this point in time. He's going to push whatever bonkers ideas he has onto the silver screen until they stop giving him money. The man already admitted that he had a treatment for Inception lying around for years but never bothered to pull it out of the draw because he didn't have the resources to do it right. I wonder what else is lying in the draw or what oddball property he'd be interested in putting on the screen next. There have been a few rumors floating about that he still really wants to do his Howard Hughes film (titled "Mr. Hughes") that he dropped when Scorsese did The Aviator. I believe it focuses mostly on the latter half of Hughes' life, which Marty's film didn't really cover. I can see that getting made at some point, but I imagine Nolan will want to cash-in his guaranteed TDKR clout on something much grander in scope.
I would love to see Nolan try his hand at something even more science fiction or fantasy-based, considering his visual sense and love of big setpieces. I remember being excited when he attached himself to a theatrical adaptation of the classic TV series The Prisoner a few years back........supposedly with a script being drawn up by David Webb Peoples. It never came to pass, but it would be awesome if he returned to that or found something equally interesting...................be it an existing property or an original one. If Christopher is smart enough to continue his "one for them, one for me" business plan that he has going right now, he will be in business with Warner Bros. for a longtime to come and it will be a very fruitful relationship for all involved (especially the audience!).
Nothing will top the Bruce Timm animated stuff but this does get my blood pumping. I know Batman \ Superman and Wonder Woman are the leaders of the Justice League, mostly because they're the big 3 DC but I like the idea that this is a Green Lantern \ Superman formed team who throw out the batsignal and lasso up an Amazonian warrior* to bring us an epic CGI laden battle.
Makes me wonder how they'll explain needing Bats and WW, considering how powerful Supes and GL are. Unless it opens with them already a team: "Meanwhile... in the Hall of Justice..."
Quote:
Will this put an end to David E. Kelley's Wonder Woman before it even airs?
Based on everything I've heard of the project, we can only hope...
And it's going to be real weird for me seeing Ryan Reynolds in a scene opposite another actor as Flash, considering...
I imagine they would play up Batman's stealth tactics and technical knowledge like they have in the various animated shows and movies. It would be moronic of them to have him simply brawling beside the super-powered likes of Superman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman. Since Batman can't punch his way through most supervillains, he'd have to be shown using his intellect to best them.
A Justice League film will coast on Batman and Superman alone, even if Green Lantern underperforms. It would take GL and the new Superman movie doing terribly to kill this project. The real question is how much money would a Justice League have to make to justify greenlighting Green Lantern 2 and solo films for Flash and Wonder Woman? While Marvel is pigeonholing connections and cameos into their solo films (to varying degrees of success) as they build up to The Avengers........................DC will be hanging the fate of at least three franchises (GL, WW, Flash) in the balance with a Justice League film. Batman and Superman will be continued/rebooted on down the line regardless of how well such a team-up project does financially. Both properties are too lucrative for WB to let them die. If JL were to underperform, it is unlikely we would ever see a Flash or Wonder Woman movie (let alone Aquaman, Green Arrow, etc.). Green Lantern would only make it out alive if this year's film plays like gangbusters. If it underperforms and JL does too, that franchise will be as good as dead.
The question is, who is taking the bigger risk? Marvel or DC?
Marvel will at least know going into Avengers whether or not the characters have the potential to cinematically last on their own. DC won't. Each really only has one hero franchise to fall back on if their three films (Thor/Cap/Avengers and GL/Supes/JL) fail..................being Iron Man and Batman. Let's hope that whatever happens, both of those franchises don't get messed up beyond repair in their solo runs after the event films come and go.
I imagine they would play up Batman's stealth tactics and technical knowledge like they have in the various animated shows and movies.
+
If the Superman reboot fails, I'd have to think WB would reconsider doing a JL flick. GREEN LANTERN's performance is likely far less important, but again, if GL flames out big time, you'd have to think they're going to be giving the current plan a second review.
I'm neutral on a JL movie. I'd rather see a Superman/Batman film. (And I think some folks have nailed a problem above: with Superman AND Green Lantern present, WTF do you need anyone else for?) I liked Miller's story, but thought the timing was terrible. (Two theatrical versions of Batman? Stupid, stupid, stupid.) 2013 still seems early, especially if you're going to have the JL version of Bats be markedly different from the Nolan version (and it would be, simply by the existence of other costumed heroes and beings like Superman).
Team ups are cool on the comic page, but I'm with joeypants on this: I remain skeptical that it can be pulled off well and convincingly onscreen. Before anyone screams "X-men!", I'd argue the X-men films don't count as team ups per se, since only ancillary characters are introduced through the series. The main characters remain, more or less, static for three films. It's far different to take characters who are introduced as very unique in their "world" and then suddenly see them with a bunch of other similarly unique people.
Frankly, I'm surprised the Superman/Batman thing isn't up front on their list of priorities. It just seems like such a natural progression... And much easier to pull off than a JL movie.
With the right script, it could be a lot of fun too. It could be kind of like the Lethal Weapon of superhero movies.
And I maintain that's the right way to introduce the "new" Batman to film audiences.
