"Official" Game Of Thrones Discussion for those who have read the books. - Page 3

Martin's been referring to A Dance With Dragons as "Kong" on his blog--as in "the gigantic monkey on his back."

 

He just posted a picture of dead Kong, having fallen off the Empire State Building. No further explanation.

 

Exciting.

Everyone's excited about Hodor, but fuck that. It's all about Hot Pie.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hot Pie!

I'm reading the book right now, about 3/4ths of the way through A Game of Thrones now. So far, I'd have to say they've done a very very good job at being faithful to the original material. I just LOVE this book, and this show!

You might want to be careful in this thread, though, Dylan. Most people here have read all four books, and spoilers get tossed around pretty casually.

You know that earlier comment about the Doom of Valeriya being linked to the dragons is spot on I think.

 

I'm pretty sure I read an interview somewhere with GRRM where he said something to the effect of of course the long winters are related to magic and the Others and that the other continents (like Essos etc.) dont go through the same mutli year winter syndrome. The whole thing is called a Song of Fire and Ice after all. Maybe the end gameplan is for Dany and Jon to die fighting the onslaught of an Others led zombie army.

 

An early complaint about the show was that it was basically a series of events from the book without a lot of cohesion--that each episode lacked a focused plot or theme. Which is to be expected when you're adapting a novel, I suppose. But flipping through the books again, I think there are a number of portions scattered throughout that do actually provide a good plot skeleton for a single episode (for a single character, of course--given the nature of the show it would have to be interwoven with dozens of other plots). For instance:

 

--Dany's sojourn among the Undying in book two

--Arya's deal with Jaqen H'Gar in Harrenhal, where she tries to pick three people for him to kill, in book two

--Jaime's escape in book two (which really should be moved "onstage")

--The Fist of the First Men (I actually thought, if they were going to split book three into two seasons, that this would make a logical climax, but in fact it happens surprisingly early into the book--three or four episodes in, if not sooner.)

--The Ironmen's Kingsmoot in book four (which is really all they need of that particular plotline, though I assume it'll pass over into book five).

 

Can anyone think of any others?

Sure. The ending of Season two ought to be largely comprised of the naval assault on King's Landing. The Red Wedding will likely be most of an episode. 

 

I'm opposed to Book Three being split up into two seasons. First off, I think ten hours is long enough to tell the story, really. Secondly, with the realities of production schedules, it just reeks of hubris. Make Four and Five two seasons combined, especially because the less of Four, the better, but

I agree that they shouldn't split the season in two, but I do think that they'll probably need extra episodes, even if they move stuff around (as I suggested elsewhere, moving the "Jon gets elected" plotline to the beginning of S4 and ending his storyline more climactically with the assault on the Wall makes sense). Even this relatively short book is feeling a bit cramped with only ten hours to play with--Dany's storyline wouldn't feel as rushed as it does if they had two more hours to play with. The whole joy of adapting the show into a series, it seems to me, is that they can flesh things out, build on the character interactions. If they're just rushing through to cram in all the plot, it's not going to be as satisfying.

 

I like the idea that, with both S1 and S2 being two episodes shorter than HBO standard, S3 can go up to 16 episodes to make up for it. By then, with any luck, the show will be enough of a recognized success that they'll be allowed the time and budget to pull it off.

I posted about this in the other thread for the show, but one thing I'm really liking about the series is the added/new character moments - Jaime and Ned's discussion in the throne room (which maybe in the books or lifted from a different section in the book), Jaime and Jon Snow,  Cersei and Joffrey, and the closing shot of Ned watching Arya with Syrio. I thought King's Landing was well done, production design-wise, but it was a big glaring reminder of a limited, for-TV budget.

 

Loved Ned and Cat's goodbye, especially since it is, as we know, the last time either will see each other, ever. Thought the actors invested it with a lot of love and melancholy; viewers who know what's coming to both characters could feel all the sadness in it, while viewers who don't saw a couple who loved and depended on each other saying goodbye.

 

I'm also missing the direwolves. Summer's supposed to be inseparable from Bran. No sign of Ghost with Jon on the Wall. At this point, I'm almost wishing the show had dropped them altogether, rather than having introduced them so seemingly momentously only to have them disappear for entire episodes at a time. I'm already sure we won't get the incredible visual of Tyrion returning to Winterfell and having Summer, Grey Wind and Shaggydog circling and snarling when he calls on Robb.

I think the Red Wedding should be much less than most of an episode.  I think it'll be much like the books:  Come out of seemingly nowhere and punch the viewers right in the gut, and then is over almost as fast as it begins.  Cue end credits and howls of rage and confusion amongst the viewers that haven't read the books (and many who have).

 

Still trying to figure out while it's excessively prideful to break up a long as hell book into longer than 10 episodes.  People are already complaining about the breakneck pace of book one's adaptation.

 

 

They do seem adamant about playing down the fantastic elements....direwolves included.  Aside from the introduction of the White Walkers/Others and the dragon eggs, it's been pretty much straight medieval.

 

However, I seem to recall that Ghost had a tendency to, well, disappear for long stretches at a time when Jon was on the Wall, basically coming and going as he pleased, or am I misremembering?

 

Still, they could've at least shown him running alongside when Jon was riding off towards the Wall or something.  You're definitely right in that it seems like the wolves are almost getting cut out.  Maybe they had problems with all the dog-wrangling or something?  Are worried about how to do them justice when they get full grown?  I dunno.

 

 

I wouldn't say it's "excessively prideful," but considering most books are lucky to get even two hours (and most miniseries are, at most 4 or so hours not counting commercials), I think it's great each book might get almost ten full hours. It is sort of surprising, though, how much still gets left out (though I think, for the most part, they're doing a bang up job of choosing what to leave out and what to compress). However, I'm thinking of all of the stuff that's yet to happen from the first book and wondering how they're going to cram in even all the major points.

 

Having said that, I'd love for the Red Wedding to get an entire episode, especially considering Arya and the Hound are right outside when it happens. It'd be pretty amazing to see a well-edited version showing events inside and outside the keep.

Quote:

 

Prit sure Ghost would disappear only when Jon had gone ranging, beyond the Wall. Otherwise, the wolf stuck pretty close when Jon was in Castle Black.

 

From what I've read from the producers, the show, like the books, will be slowly amping up the fantastic elements. I suspect the wolves are the hardest for the show, and thus are the most conspicuously absent or rewritten.

 

I guess why I hate the idea of book three being two seasons is that I'm not as fully enamored of the books, especially the later ones. I think there's a lit if room for improvement, and the first thing I'd want addressed is a tighter focus. They can be very indulgent, and as much as I appreciate world building, I'm allfor simplifying it for TV. If they want a wider audience, I think they really have to do that.

Take the fourth book. My guess is that fully two thirds of that was trivial, if not more. If I wasn't re-invested because of the show, I don't know I'd be bothering to continue the series, as it's starting to exhibit many of the worst tendencies of fantasy fiction.

I find Martin's rambling much, much more easy to take than most fantasy fiction, because I'm actually invested in the story and characters, but yes. I think book 4 was a case of Martin struggling with writer's block, being hounded by his fans, and finally rushing out half a book padded with stuff that would have been trimmed down if he had managed to turn it into a tight story. But even the seemingly redundant Dorne storyline is clearly setting up something down the road, and of course the Brienne and Cersei storylines were just starting to get good when the book ended. I strongly suspect that S4 of the show will lose the Dorne sequences, drop most of the Iron Islands plot except the Kingsmoot (presumably that's one thread that will be continued into the next book, so they won't be shafting whoever plays Asha on screentime) and cut down on Brienne's quest. Book 5 is apparently a monster, so I'm sure there'll be lots of stuff to fill in the season.

 

But I can definitely see SoS requiring more space. For all the stuff that can be trimmed, there's sequences and storylines that absolutely need time to breathe. You can't skimp out on the Fist of the First Men sequence--that needs as much screentime as it can get. Ditto the Red Wedding, the climactic battle, and Jon Snow's Donnie Brasco storyline. Arya and the Hound need lots of screentime together too. The biggest weakness of the show so far is that it's in a hurry to hit certain plot beats, meaning that certain relationships, most notably Dany and Drogo's, aren't developing as smoothly as they should. If anything, making this a TV show should have given them MORE room to expand on the characters and plot threads, let the actors play off each other, etc. Robert's big speech in this episode showed that just watching the actors hang out can be riveting, so "padding" the story isn't going to feel as indulgent.

I'm one of the few folks who really liked AFfC, unapologetically. I thought it was a bit padded, but a lot of shit happened and there was a lot of movement. Like Prankster, I like Martin's ramblings, for the most part. Brienne's storyline was the one that barely holds my attention, at most, frankly. I loved seeing Dorne (and am still wishing Oberyn wouldn't have died) and it seemed pretty obvious what was happening:

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

Can't disagree with much of that. And it's true, my favorite stuff about the show so far seems to be the scenes that don't push the plot forward, like that King Robert speech, or Cersei and Joffrey chatting. Well, that and Tyrion.

I cry foul on having Littlefinger tell the Mountain/Hound story. Was so much better to have The Hound tell it, and threaten Sansa, himself. Also, they could have shown a few cuts of other tilts before The Mountain killing the other knight.

With the way the ep opened I really hoped we'd get Robb and Bran's ride. At least the Jon Snow scenes were done well, as was Cat seizing Tyrion.

Have to admit I got a chill when Cat introduced the guy from House Frey. 

 

Nice preliminary setup for the entire Greyjoy saga as well. 

Really curious to see the casting on Walder Frey.

If he's still around by the time they get to Storm of Swords, then I vote for Ian McDiarmid. 
 

 

 

 

  Walder Frey is going to be played by David Bradley (aka Argus Filch from the Harry Potter movies) the last I had heard.  I suspect like most of the cast so far, he will be brilliant.  Glad to see I wasn't the only one that shivered a bit when they introduced the Frey soldier.  Was it my imagination or did the music swell a little ominously there?

 

It's also hilarious to me how I find myself hoping against hope that the characters somehow won't make the same mistakes I already know they're going to make. Also, couldn't help but be skeeved out when Littlefinger went and sat down next to Sansa. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jmacq1 - 5/9/11 at 5:32am

The books are starting to bur for me - is it in AGOT where Robb agrees to marry a Frey in order to cross, or is that in SWORDS? I know the Red Wedding is in SWORDS, but can't recall in which book the original treaty is made.

It's near the end of AGOT.

 

Close to the part where they're all cheering "THE KING IN THE NORTH!", yes?  I love that scene, despite knowing (now) how ill-fated it is.

 

I think it's a short while before that part.  It's been a while since I read the book, but I think it goes Frey Alliance --->  Winning first victory over the Lannisters ---> KING IN THE NORTH!  ("King in the North!") is definitely one of the very last, if not -the- last chapter of the book, I'm pretty sure.

SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE

 

Does the Battle of Whispering Wood happen in book one? Because I wouldn't be surprised if they moved it, or at least Jaime's capture, to season two for the TV show. It'll give him more to do that season.

 

It's in GOT (first book). Catelyn frees him at the very end of COK, and much of ASOS his his journey back to King's Landing. Maybe all of it. I get them a bit confused, plotwise. I know it's in ASOS that he loses his hand.

 

Well, I stand by my statement, then--I guess the battle has to happen for plot reasons, and hey, I guess every book/season is going to end with a big battle climax, but I wouldn't be surprised if they invent a new opportunity to capture Jaime early in S2, just so that he doesn't have to spend the *entire* season chained up in a dungeon. Which is not to say he has nothing to do that season--there's lots of opportunities to develop his relationship with Cat further than it was in the book, and there's the attempted jailbreak (that happens offstage in the books). But he's such a crucial character, and Nickolaugh Costeahaggle-Waldorf is so much fun to watch, I can't imagine they want to sideline him more than is purely necessary.

spoiler space, because prankster says so

 

Yes, the producers are definately throwing some forshadowing bones to the readers. You were not the only one creeped out by littlefinger sitting next to sansa (surprised he did not try the popcorn trick) and yes, I winced when I Cat called out to the Frey. 

 

It is hard for me to distinguish my impressions of the book from those of the show, but the highlight for me was Tyrion's true sympathy for Bran and the real happiness Bran had when viewing the drawing of the saddle.

Watched the episode last night. Someone's pointed this out, here or in the other thread, but it bears repeating: I think the series' biggest failing is not doing a clear job relaying the passage of time. These four episodes have covered, from the books, I think something like six months of time. Just watching the show, you'd think maybe a week or two. I'm glad they didn't spend five episodes getting Ned to King's Landing, but even some title cards or more overt references to the calendar in the dialogue would help.

 

The King's Landing scenes are where the budget really shows. The scenes in the keep itself are pretty great; whatever sets and locations they're using are working. But the tournament and other KL scenes just feel small and cheap. (I know they can't help it; they're not working with tens or hundreds of millions of dollars here.) It doesn't ruin the show for me, at all, but it can pull me out a bit. What are they going to do for the battle of King's Landing, near the end of CLASH OF KINGS? Or the siege of Storm's End?

Who says that making him a prisoner means he's "sidelined?"  With him in the custody of the Starks, that just gives them way more opportunities to have him do the snarky little interactions with various characters we don't see him interact with much in the books.  And yes, a good chunk of his story arc during the second season could be interacting with Cat to the point that she actually trusts him to carry out the task she charges him with.

 

 

Well, at an average of 5 million an Episode, they -are- working with tens of millions of dollars.  But maybe they're saving their budget for the really big moments.  I confess I don't see the "small" King's Landing that others do, save for the Tournament.  Most of the scenes in King's Landing have taken place indoors, and those that were outdoors seemed suitably cramped and/or crowded. to me.

 

And yeah, clarifying how long has gone by somehow would help.

 

 

$5 million for recreating a large battle featuring tens of thousands of participants isn't much, especiallly when there are other things (presumably) happening in the episode.
 

We're not seeing any of the city, really - we did see one of Littlefinger's brothels, but that was it, and the scene from an episode or two back, when the Starks arrived at KL, the courtyard scene just felt "small" to me, especially compared to the same scene in the books.

 

Yeah, I know. Two separate creatures. I do like the series, and think, overall, they're doing a bang-up job. I'm nitpicking, mostly, WRT locations, extras and sets. I do want more direwolves, though, and still contend they either need to up their presence or they should have just cut them entirely.

Bear in mind it's not exactly $5 million per episode, evenly distributed. It's $50 million for the entire season. So we may be seeing episodes that cost, say, $2 million each right now, with a large proportion of the money being saved for the final episodes, with their dragons and evil shadows and the return of the White Walkers and the aforementioned big battle. It's a recurring problem on TV shows--they have to skimp in some episodes to save money for the flashier stuff. I think I remember reading that one of the reasons "Heroes"'s climactic S1 battle was so lame was that they'd burned through their budget for the season already.

 

I'm hoping, and it doesn't seem unreasonable, that the budget increases for next season. The show seems to be a solid hit.

 

I don't think it's been six months. Three months, maybe four. It takes about a month for the king's full retinue to get to Winterfell, they said as much. So there's a month there, a month back, and Catelyn and Rodrik riding down would presumably take significantly less time, since she doesn't have a huge entourage, but Robert hung out in Winterfell for a while between trips, so call it an even three. From there it's been as long as it takes to get to the Inn at the Crossroads, which, again, doesn't seem that long with a pair of riders. All these timeframes are indicated in the dialogue, and the direwolves' growth really should be an indicator, even if we don't know how fast the maturation process is. I agree that things seem a little rushed, but there's no reason for viewers to be lost on this point.

Regarding the battles, I'm sure we're going to get many aftermatch scenes. "Boy, that battle we just had off camera was brutal!"

I wouldn't count on it.  HBO knows that the fandom wants to see the battles done justice, and Martin himself is co-writing/consulting on a lot of the scripts.  I'm betting we don't get a repeat of Rome.

 

That's not to say that we'll necessarily see the full scope and scale of some of these battles, but for instance, at the Battle of Whispering Wood, if you focus on Robb and Jaime, you still get plenty of action without necessarily having to pull a Lord of the Rings style battle.

 

The show has shown some signs of being unafraid to handle "large scale."  Admittedly it's quite a bit different from a battle, but I don't think anyone's been complaining that the Dothraki Horde feels too small when it's shown on the march, are they?

Even Rome showed a couple of battles. There's really only one per book in ASoIaF, so that makes sense (well, I think there are others offstage, but we don't need to see literally every single one).

Nope, Jaime is captured in either the end of episode 9 or the start of episode 10 according to these spoiler summaries for episodes 8-10: http://www.spoilertv.com/2011/05/true-blood-and-game-of-thrones-june.html

 

So it seems like the whispering wood battle occurs in episode 9 (or carries over into episode 10).

 

*raises hand*

 

I'm willing to give the show a pass on this, but we're told in the books the horde is, what, 40,000+ strong? Maybe more? If I hadn't read the books, I would have guessed maybe several thousand at best, based on what's been shown and discussed. I'm fine with the way the show suggests rather than shows - the quality is high enough for both actual writing and production design that it's still a thoroughly imagined and presented world. But I'm wish we could have had some kind of swooping aerial shots showing the long train or fanned out body of the horde.

 

OK, so question concerning this week's episode:

 

In the scene with Robert and Cersei discussing the potential for impending Dothraki Invasion, Robert says that the Seven Kingdoms have five separate armies (as opposed to one unified one).  My question is...assuming each Great House has their own army, which two are he discounting?  I'm assuming the Greyjoys are one, since they were put down in their attempt at a rebellion.  Who's the other?

 

My guess is he's either assuming the Baratheon and Lannister armies are combined as one, or he's not counting on the Dornish showing up to fight on his behalf (which...would be a surprisingly wise assumption on his part).

As the books go, I'm fifty pages from the end of A Clash of Kings.  Finally able to watch The Wolf and the Lion, and Arya is hiding...

 

Varys and Illyrio were the men plotting near the skulls?  I never, ever considered that reading A Game of Thrones.  Very interesting.

So Renly and Lloras are gay lovers.  Is this something that was hinted at in the books ever and I am just to dense to have seen it, or is this something completely new added to the show?  Tell me I'm not the only one who never saw a hint of that in the books.

 

 

 

There are quite a few hints and it's practically stated outright.

 

Is this enough spoiler space? God, I hope I'm doing this right. Anyway, it's especially clear after Renly gets killed. Sansa says something to Loras about how she's sorry for his sister's loss, and he gets pissy and says something along the lines of he's the one who lost someone, not her. That's the biggest hint I can think of, but I remember there being quite a few asides and snide remarks from the other characters about Renly and Loras.

 

 

Yes, Jaime remarks to Loras about shoving a sword farther up him than even Renly ever put anything. (I think that's in A Feast For Crows.) The books don't say "Renly and Loras are gay lovers and engage in consensual homosexual acts," but it's clear from the text that they're gay and together.

George RR Martin has posted a pretty interesting article on his blog about the process of splitting Feast and Dance, and how that affected the writing of Dance.  He documents the writing and submission process of Dance including what POVs would appear and what the page counts were at various stages of writing.  Interestingly, he mentions that copies of his papers/works are being kept in Special Collections at Texas A&M, including each of his partial submissions of Dance (and presumably the rest of Ice and Fire) to his editors.  For those wondering why it took so long for the last two books to be published, this article should hopefully clarify what the deal was (and hopefully put to rest the bitching about him not being motivated).  Be warned those who have not read the series, there are spoilers (mainly who's alive and who isn't).

 

http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html#cutid1

http://winter-is-coming.net/2011/05/grrm-viewing-auditions-now-casting-clues-to-come/

 

They should get Mark Strong for Stannis.

I think Strong has too much inherent charisma to play Stannis. Stannis has presence, but does not inspire loyalty or easily attract followers. Strong is too likeable.

 

I'm really interested to see how they do Melisandre.

Mark Strong would indeed be a fucking awesome Stannis, and there are signs that the producers might be talking to a "name" for the part, so it's possible. But unlike Bean he'd have to commit to at least a couple of seasons. Would he want to do that right as his movie career seems to be taking off?

 

There was a rumour of Tony Curran as Davos, that's a pretty amazing choice as well.

When I was reading, I couldn't shake Jeremy Irons for Stannis, though he's too big (and too Borgia'd up) for what is ultimately not a gigantic role. Same goes for William Hurt, who'd probably be awesome. If they follow the trend with this season and take someone Mark Addy-ish, Chris Eccleston could nail it.

Irons is too old, Hurt isn't British, and Chris Eccleston seems to have trouble committing to a TV series for more than a season.

 

I know, I'm a buzzkill.

Here's a fanboy suggestion that might actually work for Stannis:  Anthony Stewart Head. 

I love Eccleston  for Stannis.