"Official" Game Of Thrones Discussion for those who have read the books. - Page 21

He's talking about Marillion, the singer. Who is very easily replaceable later on, but whatever.

Both Marillion and Mago, who play big parts later in the books, were killed off in season 1.

 

Yes, I seriously meant what I wrote.  And if you think every single thing is meticulously planned and debated in a TV show, you haven't ever worked on a TV show.  And the way you guys respond here, you'd think I insulted your sister or something.  Jeez.  I don't come on here and rail against every change the show makes, yet you guys act like I committed a cardinal sin because I don't like some of the choices in the adaptation.  Y'all really need to chill out. 

Was that the Damphair tonight or just some random priest with Theon?

It was just a random priest, Aeron hasn't been cast yet.

Darn.  Oh well, Margery was REALLY hot, and very accommodating all things considered.  I'd like a chick like that, though preferably with a sister.

Um, my day job is on a TV show, thank you very much.

 

 

 

Who needs to chill, exactly?  You're the one who has issues with things simply because they're different.  "They killed Marillion!  They killed Mago!  Oh noooooooooo!  Stupid changes, I'm sure nobody even though about them!"

Wasn't talking to you.  But I've worked on a few TV shows myself, so I feel pretty confident that I know what I'm talking about.

 

And I don't know if you've been following the thread or not, but you guys are the ones who come on here calling people names and dismissing opinions because someone disagrees with your opinion that the show can do no wrong and the books are stupid and don't matter.  You can say they're stupid changes and they don't matter, but some of this stuff has repercussions in how the adaptation plays out down the road.  As a fan of the books, that worries me.

 

I don't come here to nit-pick.  I come here to discuss the show with other fans.  My only criticisms have been based around major changes from the book - stupid or not - and this IS the thread for discussing the show in relation to the book, last I checked.

 

It's okay to disagree with me, but you guys seem to like to devolve the discussion to me being an idiot, a nerd, a troll, or whatever because I don't share your view that the TV show is utterly awesome and the books suck.  So please, be adults and stop with the name calling and piss-poor dismissals of valid critiques and criticisms.

In one scene-ONE SCENE- Margery Tyrell of the TV show is already way more interesting than her literary counterpart.   I just love that speech she gives to Renly and how that developed from where you think it might be going to something alot more interesting.   Also, how fucking perfect was Brienne?   Sorry book fans (and I count myself among that number) but the TV show is so far exceeding the source material.

 

EDIT:  One departure from the book that I liked was making Shae Sansa's hand maid.   Smart change.  I'm sure the purists would bemoan the fact that she isn't assigned to Lollys but she's a character that can be excised easily with no problem.

You were, however, saying that if you think quite a bit of thought goes into the writing process, you've clearly never worked on a show before, yes?

 

 

...because I work on a show on a major network, and I'm assistant to the showrunner, and I feel pretty confident that I know what I'm talking about.

 

 

Repercussions you haven't seen play out, yet you're damning the choices.  I have no problem with having issues with the show; I have a problem with every single issue being some form of 'it's different from the book.'  All of your points have been "they changed that character" / "they changed that line" / "they changed what happened to that character."  You're not judging the show, simply the fact it's not a staged reading.

 

Basically, you're the guy who thinks Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is a better movie than Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.

Saying it's better than the source material is going a bit far (though I haven't seen this apparently excellent episode yet), but it is amazing how characters who were total nonentities in the books have become fan favourites. Bronn was the best example of this last year, and like I said, making him the new sheriff is a really smart change, as is making Shae Sansa's PA. Helps trim the cast down AND give these interesting characters more to do.

 

There's a whole bunch of third- or fourth-string characters I really can't remember doing anything other than sort of hanging around--like the eventual Small Council Cersei appoints, Armory Lorch (I literally can't remember what he does in the story, just the name) and the fucking Kettleblacks (who I remember from some shenanigans later, but is anyone going to care if they're cut?)

 

 

Dude, you are really full of yourself aren't you?  My whole point in my original post was about how I was disappointed with how they handled Stannis and Mel in the Show.  You jump down my throat, I defend my points.  We can discuss the book in regards to the TV show in this thread, yes?  I've never said the show was bad, I said that many of the changes from the books affect MY enjoyment of the show, and the bigger the changes, the more my enjoyment is affected.  If you don't agree, fine.  But I'm not railing against every single change, because frankly, I'm fine with most of the changes, and if I were to do a detailed list of EVERY change, we'd be here all day and I'd have no life other than listing them out.

 

You seem to think I want a staged reading of the books.  But I've never said that, nor have I implied it.  I just pointed out changes that were made that I didn't like or agree with.  And how you're comparing this to the Harry Potter movies is beyond me.  You and others in this thread are so gung-ho about the show that you lambast anyone who might think that the show isn't as good as the books.  If you can't handle book comparisons, DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD.  The other thread is for singing the show's praises without any comparison to the book, so if you can't take some criticism of the show in relation to the SOURCE MATERIAL, you need to stop reading this thread completely.

 

Ha ha, I don't agree with it exceeding the source material, but I will say this was a very good episode.  I didn't like how they made Loras so much more petulant than he was in the books.  When he lost to Brienne he was very chivalrous.  In the show he was petty to the point of being embarassing.

And Shae is made Sansa's handmaiden in Storm of Swords, after Tyrion marries Sansa.  I think they just moved that up.

I wouldn't say Bronn was a non-entity in the books.  He played a very big roll in the first three novels.

Amory Lorch was the knight who killed Loren.  The kinda combined him with the Mountain's men in this episode, since they're the ones who eventually capture Arya and the others.

Edited by Simon West will kill Again - 4/15/12 at 11:51pm

You know what?   It really doesn't get any better than this when it comes to adapting source material.   Game of Thrones can count itself on a very short list of properties that meet or exceed the source material.   This list includes The Godfather, Lord of the Rings, Prisoner of Azkhaban, Stand by Me, and Shawshank Redemption.    This could have turned out so fucking worse that it feels like a sin to be anything but grateful this property found such an awesome production team to realize the world of Westeros to a visual medium.

I agree, this show could have turned out awful on the level of Xena or Hercules, see the Sword of Truth abortion.  We are pretty lucky

 

 

The source material is very good.   It has to be for there to be a baseline for the wonderful characters we see on the show.   As I said earlier in this thread, the changes and refinements feel more like revisions a writer would make from a decent 2nd or third draft to a final draft.   There's a better flow, a few more layers to characters who are otherwise slight (like Margery and Loras), and smart changes that work better from a character POV.   We're still early in the series but so far, the TV series feels much more refined than the books at this point.
 

 

 

So these are the important characters that were killed off?

1. "Marillion" was not killed, only his tongue cut off. But he is not an important character - his action in book 3 can be moved over to any character with no effect on the plot. Therefore he is not important. (Also, the character was never named, so another "Marillion" could be introduced later)

2. Mago - important?  A character named once or twice in AGOT, and not since? An anonymous Dothraki is important?

 

That's the crux of the problem with your posts... You don't know what important means. At least what it means to the rest of us. Everything is apparently important. 

 

 

Sure, the way the wind moves through the leafs, or the clouds look in the background - those things are not meticulously planned. But the script and adaptation choices? You betcha. And if you think otherwise, then you don't know squat about writing.

 

As for chilling out... I'm trying. Honestly. I've ignored your posts for days. But when you throw off nuggets such as "why kill off characters in season 1 which play such an important roll in later seasons?" and "but I seriously doubt there's a reason for every stupid change they've made", what can mortal men do but respond??? I'm really not interested in picking a fight, but if you keep writing stuff like that, expect to be called on it.

 

 

 

 

 

Dude, seriously, you need to chill out.  What have I done to drive you so crazy?  Point out changes in the TV show that I didn't like?  I'm not saying the show sucks because the changes were made, just that they affected my enjoyment of the show because they were so different from the books.  Not everything is important, but there are some things I would rate high in importance that don't make sense when changes are made.  Can't that be discussed in a thread about the books?

 

And I like to think I know a thing or two about writing.  Sure, TV writers do plan stuff out, but things get changed all the time.  Otherwise, all TV shows would be great, but they're not.  Producers can over-rule writers and make bizaar changes.  Studio heads can step in and demand things be changed.  Rewrites are done at the last minute.  A star's ego might warrent changes.  Logistics might force a scene to be changed.  There's all types of things that can affect a show's meticulous planning.  Just look at Babylon 5.  That show was planned out from beginning to end, yet it got mucked up numerous times because of various reasons.  As far as TV goes, Game of Thrones is very good.  But D&D still put their stamp on it, and it's not always good.

 

You guys who are the "TV Fanboi's" are almost fanatical in your belief that anyone who doesn't like every single thing the TV show does is crazy and stupid.  I can disagree with the way the show is adapted and still enjoy it for what it is, but seriously, you guys need to take a chill pill.  If you think the changes I dislike are warrented, please make a case as to why they are better than the way the books had them, instead of just devolving into name calling and making generalizations about my background.

 

If anything I wish the show would deviate even more from the novels. Trim the characters down even more, expand the roles of a few other characters, change a bunch of other characters, and god knows what else.* Because while I think Martin has a good eye for big medieval set-pieces, he's yet to convince me that he's an actual great writer of fantasy.

 

 

 

*That can begin with the Dothraki who should have been retooled from the ground up.

2 episodes in, I like the changes. Adding the 'i'll give you a son' between Melisandre and Stanis. It gives it an interesting dynamic, especially given what Melisande 'births' later on.

Of all the casting I was impressed with every one (especially Balon Greyjoy) except Craster. He just wasn't seedy enough for me.

 

I'm genuinely torn on Margaery and that scene.  I thought the scene was brilliant, and her nonchalant pragmatism was excellent...almost touching (in a warped way) in how committed she was to the alliance (admittedly, she'll get to be Queen if Renly wins the war, so it's not like there isn't anything in it for her).  Even Renly came across as well...-wanting- to do what needed to be done, just...unable.

 

But by the other token, Margaery is played far more coy in the books.  They give hints here and there as to how astute she is and how well she plays "the game" but little is outright spelled out the way this was, giving readers a little wiggle room to wonder how much of what we see of her is a calculated front. Then again, she's also supposed to be like fifteen or sixteen years old in the books, so...yeah.

 

And yeah, Brienne was great.  She really got a ton of mileage out of her screentime, and it was all pretty much note-perfect.

 

Renly was also much improved this episode.  Or at least they started to get across why he's the "popular" choice for king.

 

 

You sure you're not equating "jumping down my throat" with "not agreeing with me"?  Because I'm seeing a lot more of the latter than the former.
 

 

They have been.  To which you respond, "OMG, chill out, why are you picking on me?!?"

Television has seen a severe lack in Natalie Dormer's rack in recent years, thank you Game of Thrones for filling that void. That scene was brilliant. And in response to the questions of 'coyness' on her part, I have to disagree. I don't recall entirely, but Margaery was never given a POV chapter, was she? She, like Robb, was spoken about by or through other people. I like this removal of potential 'is she/isn't she' subtext, something that needs to happen when translating a book to a filmed medium. Show, don't tell and all of that. I never got a real sense of the Margaery character in the books except for the (played up) 'woe is me, nobody's fucked me yet' angle. I like this turn and look forward to seeing her go through the ringer.

 

Damn, I knew it was coming, but I was really hoping Yoren would have some more time to talk back to anyone within shouting distance. Went out like a champ though, gave the episode a nice boost of energy (not that it was lacking in it). His scene between Arya, where she gets the idea for the list, was pitch perfect and a nice change from the book I thought.

 

And of course, Tyrion. Brilliant gamesmanship and a ruthlessly well cut scene.

 

EDIT: They also managed to make me feel sorry for Theon, presumably so I can fucking hate his guts when he goes all kill-happy later in the season.

Edited by Doc Happenin - 4/16/12 at 6:53am

Anyone else done reading him? Cause I'm done.

Not really.  I don't make entire posts dedicated to how much I hate people with differing opinions, which Dark Shape pretty much did.  If you like the show, fine.  I'm glad.  But I come here to discuss the show in relation to the book, yet when I do I get called names and have my points dismissed as unimportant.  I don't care if you disagree with me, but the level of hostility directed at me because I have a different opinion of the show is unwarrented.

 

And if you've actually been reading the thread, you'll see that very few times has anyone tried to argue that the changes in the show were better than the book.  It's always just "the changes weren't important" or "I liked the changes because the book sucked" or "you're a dumb fanboy and you hate every change so shut up."  No real attempt to engage my arguments as to why the changes from the book were correct and made the TV show better.

 

Anyway, on to this week's episode...

 

Over-all, I really liked this episode.  i mean, there were a SHIT TON of changes from the book in this one, not all of them I agreed with, but it made for an enjoyable episode over-all.  I had a few questions though...

 

1.  Did anyone else notice that they changed Renly's standard?  In the books it was a crowned stag on a field of gold, so he was basically using his family's standard.  It was Stannis who made the controvercial decision to change his standard to reflect the Lord of Light.  Why did Renly have a different standard, one on a blue-green field, in the show?  I'm just wondering if there was a reason for this change?

 

2.  I didn't like how Loras was portrayed.  In the books, he was always very chivalrous to a fault, and cocky like a young Jamie.  He'd shrug off losses.  I thought the way he acted after losing to Brienne was a bit out of character from the book, though I guess it works in the series, but it makes him seem rather petty and petulant.

 

3.  Man oh man, how gay do you have to be to not get hard with naked Natalie Dormer?  Pretty gay, I guess, lol.

 

4.  Am I the only one not liking Shae at all?  In the books, I always kinda pictured a Mila Kunis type in the roll, but I'm really not caring for this actress and her odd accent.  Also, they seem to be changing her pet name for Tyrion from "My Giant of Lannister" to "My Lion," or something along those lines.

 

5.  I'd think Cat would have the good sense not to insult Renly in front of all his men, especially since she's there to broker an alliance, but I guess it was more important to show her standing up to him?

 

6.  What was up with Littlefinger this episode?  His Irish accent kept creeping up in his line delivery.  I'm not sure I like the change of Tyrion sending him after Catelyn.  in the books, it was Littlefinger who orchestrated him treating with the Tyrells after Renly's death against Tyrion's better judgement.  It was a masterful stroke that got him safely out of King's Landing before an attack and helped him curry favor with the Lannisters/Tyrells.  I feel like Tyrion sending him out kinda cheapen's Littlefinger's cunning.  But oh well.

 

7.  I really liked the scene with Yoren vs. Lorch, and they've compressed a LOT of Arya's story, but they did it well.  However, I have to wonder about the strategy behind leaving a safe, fortified position to meet a bunch of soldiers in an open area.  I think the over-all battle was handled better in the books, but really loved the way Yoren went out in the TV show.  I think Lommy's death coulda been a bit more poignant, but they seemed to handle that well enough too.

 

8.  Tyrion's scenes rocked the house tonight.  Really awesome stuff, especially with adding the extra coin for Pycell's whore.  I am worried they're making Cercei a bit too sympathetic though.  I miss the cold hearted bitch from the books.  Lena Heady just doesn't play her evil enough for my tastes.

 

9.  The scene between Theon and Balon where Theon finally called him on his bullshit was fantastic.  I wish that scene had been in the books, because it was great.  It definitely made Theon more sympathetic and was a rare moment where Balon gets called on his shit.  But I'm really not liking the actress they got for Yara.  I don't know what it is about her, I think Asha in the books had more Swagger.  Her and Theon were always described as acting like they knew something was funny that nobody else could see.  I just don't get that from the actress yet.

 

10.  Liked how they introduced the idea of Arya's prayer.  In the books, it's just kinda something she develops over time, but in the show they set it up really well with Yoren and her talking about it.

Edited by Simon West will kill Again - 4/16/12 at 9:45am

Oh, Simon.

 

 

My 'condescending demeanor' -- and how condescending have I been, exactly?  You seem to think I've tossed out insults at every turn -- comes from dealing with a spectacularly unfair opinion.  Your point-of-view has little to do with the show and everything to do with the book.   (And I fail to see how where I'm employed makes me condescending; you're the one who pulled the 'if you actually worked in TV, you'd know what you just said isn't true!' card.  I just happen to actually work on television and thus can call bullshit on that.)

 

Of course this is the thread for people who've read the books, and of course you're allowed to be upset by various changes.  But I'm allowed to point out how silly, silly, silly that point of view is.

 

 

 

 

No, you said with TV shows, they don't care enough to consider their changes.  There's a difference.

Edited by The Dark Shape - 4/16/12 at 10:00am

Some...some of these complaints are...serious?

 

Oh my..

If I wasn't before, I certainly am after he declared that no one has been trying to make an argument for why the changes on the show are better than the book, when that's basically all I've fucking done.

I don't recall his banner from the book, but in the show I think Renly's banner is more green than blue - although it is hard to see at times. The scenes at Renly's camp seemed to have a blue filter on it.

 

Here's a better picture his banner from the HBO viewers guide site - It is a golden stag on a green background. I think the green background is to signify the union/alliance with house Tyrell.

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season2/#!/guide/houses/rbaratheon/

 

 

 

 

You can't really engage nit-picking.

Simon, I think what you have to understand about this adaptation is a very subtle - yet crucial - point in that they're adapting a story, not a book (I said it would be subtle... :P), and a change in medium always necessitates altering the story because they're changing the way the story can be told.  Most changes are made not because the producers don't like or respect the books but because characters and story lines have to be altered/dropped for budget or time or logistical reasons (Shae being assigned to Sansa, not Lollys, because the show has neither the time nor the money to include the Stokeworths in any significant capacity and because the audience can follow but only so many characters at once; Theon's rant at his father because they can't drag out his discontent with Balon's lack of respect for an entire season; Loras having more personality because in a ten episode season - as opposed to a 1000 page book - characters can less afford to be symbols of chivalry rather than fully three-dimensional beings who may be a bit snippy at times; Asha being renamed Yara - though some may still confuse that with Arya).  Almost all of the changes I've noted in the show can be put down to the nature and limitations of a ten hour television series versus a thousand page opus.  A book can be read and processed over the course of months - and a book costs far less to print than ten hours of show costs to produce.  I think you just have to chalk up some of these changes as the unavoidable consequence of getting to see HBO plop tens of millions of dollars into telling this story on screen.  And some of the really small tweaks like Renly's standard are pretty inconsequential in the long run.

 

Great to see Margaery getting some love, Natalie Dormer was great on the Tudors and I thought she was perfectly cast in this role.  I do have to disagree with dynamotv when he says that she's already more interesting than the books.  For sure she is more front and center from the get-go, but I believe that this is, again, because of the demands of the medium.  In the books, Margaery is a mystery and we are made to be unsure of her motives - and that of her family.  The show does not have the hours to pull this off in the same way a book can over hundreds of pages (nor does the production team have the money to pay Dormer to stand/sit around doing nothing but looking sweet and demure for a season or two until her character really takes off).  So, this is less "the show got it sooo right when the books failed sooo miserably," and more "we've got less time to develop Margaery's character - and in a show we can't afford to have her disappear for episodes at a time while her betrothed and her brother are fighting a war - so let's add these scenes about producing an heir and Renly's difficulty performing the task so that we can compress these plot lines.

 

Lena Headey-Peter Dinklage scenes are not letting me down.

He pretty much killed this thread. It's no fun to read at all and everyone keeps replying to his inane bullshit.

I personally LOVE reading it because I don't have enough insane, nit-picking assholes in my life anymore. No, seriously. I used to hang out with tons of comic and video game nerds (not that there's anything wrong with that) who would bitch at the littlest thing.  It's kind of refreshing to see someone go apeshit over nothing.

Melisandre and Stannis gettign physical makes more sense because Stannis is the embodiment of pragmatism, and so for him to fall under her spell never really sat right with me.

 

Making it about carrying on his legacy fits better.

Also, we got that wonderful shot of pieces falling around Stannis' legs while he was rooting her on the Dragonstone table.  Nice allegory for how masses of people are going to get destroyed in this conflict, but also a nice allegory for any time a state power getting involved with religion, people end up getting killed.

 

I have to admit I struggled with it last night (first two episodes shown back to back in NZ), but after thinking about the two episodes, yup, I'm on board now.

That wasn't a complaint.  I just noticed the change and wondered what the reason was behind it.

 

Hey Prankster, I appreciated your replies, though I'd say you've more defended the changes than explained to me why they are better than how they were in the book.

 

But whatever.  You guys have gotten so incredibly negative here.  It's like if you mention any differences from the books you just feel the need to hate on people.  The level of fanboy defense of this show is venomous on these boards.  So I'm just gonna ignore any negative posts from now on.

 

Hey dajuice, don't buy into the idea other posters seem to have that I hate all the changes to the book.  This whole thing got started because I didn't like the way the show handled Stannis and Mel's relationship, and somehow that turned into posters thinking I'm some fanatic who wants to see a 100% adaptation from book to screen.  I understand the need to change things for a TV show and I'm fine with most of the changes.  However, there are changes that are made that I don't like as a fan of the book.

 

The people who post in this thread tend to think that if you don't like ONE THING then you're some nut book fan to be ridiculed and dismissed, because the TV show is infallable apparently.  I appreciate your sane and well written reply.

Please point out where I said that.  I only ever said that TV shows can't be meticulously planned.  Hyperspace wrote:

 

 

To which I replied:

 

 

Fact is, everything is not meticulously planned on most TV shows.  Things change, get messed up, have to be rewritten at the last minute, etc.  You seem to have read into this something that wasn't there.

 

 

 

 

Your stupid changes seem to focus on:

 

-Excising Marillion's tongue.

-Changing lines of dialogue.

-Melisandre and Stannis having sex.

 

You don't think thought and reason went into these things?

 

 

And holy hell, did you just call us fanboys?

But you're implying that the changes to GoT are of this variety rather than actually being thought out.  Whereas if they do deviate from the novels, I'm pretty sure there's a damn good reason for it and not some last minute, "Oh screw it let's change this" moment.

Briene's casting is amazing, it's like she sprung to life straight from the page.  I hope the girl can act, because Brienne's storyline is so rich....especially her relationship to Jaime. This really gives me something to look forward to.

 

 

 

I will take one last shot at the entire Stannis thing, by way of background, I am an aspiring writer, though marriage, children, work, mortgage etc have prevented me from pursuing that dream as of yet, I do tend to analyze stories in terms of how they are constructed and why they are constructed in a certain way.

 

In the books Stannis is not analogous to Ned, whether it be their morale sense, relation to family, heart, however you want describe it, Stannis is very different than Ned Stark.

 

In Literature you generally have more time to get your point across, it can be done over time, through POV, through anecdontes, etc. In the HBO show, they have less time to communicate certain things (more time than in a movie, but less time than in a book). Also, movies and television tend to be more straightforward and hamhanded when they try to drive home a point (a discussion of this weeks mad men brought this up, even in that show they can go too far to illustrate something).

 

Most television shows have to make sacrifices to the audience, many shows (and movies) exist on two basic levels. The overt story which is geared to entertain the audience, and the subtext which can be rich and varied. Look at a show like the Wire, which many (myself included) consider to be the greatest piece of television ever produced. It was never a ratings hit, and we were lucky to see it make it through to the end. Think on many shows such as Carnivale which were artisticly great, but we were not able to see through to their conclusions. Show producers are aware of these realities and sometimes are forced to make choices which will hurt the fans of the source material.

 

So far, the producers and writers have done a masterful job of adapting Martin's book. Sexposition is great, how many times have audiences drifted off too sleep while characters delivered necessary dialogue to set up the action to follow? Well, the producers decided some nice soft core porn along with the history lesson will keep the audience engaged. (there is money to be made in that concept, educational videos, drivers ed test prep videos).  So yes I acknowledge the writers have made some changes to the book, whether it was done through carelessness, careful planning, budget considerations or all of the above is surely a subject for continued debate.

 

Which brings us to Simon's point about Stannis, Stannis bangs Mel on the table after she says she will give him a son. This is not in keeping with the Stannis of the books. On that point I am in agreement with Simon.  However, having read the first 4 books multiple times and read the 5th, I am pretty sure I am right in saying Stannis is a dick. He is not acting out of the same morale/ethical realm as Ned Stark (Ned sacrifices his own honor on multiple occaisions to serve the greater good). To Stannis Honor is a goal unto itself. I think the producers needed to quickly let the audience know that Stannis is not the new Ned Stark, you may root for him, but dont root for him as a surrogate for Ned. So they set about doing that in a rather hamfisted and obvious way, which I dont particularly like, but I get it.

 

So anyway,.....I am sure you all wanted to read another long post about Stannis.......so now you have one.

I just realized something about season 2 compared to season 1.

 

There really was hardly any heraldry or sigils on display during season 1, and many book readers (myself included) missed it. A prime example is of course the 'inn at the crossroads' scene where Catelyn captures Tyrion. She calls out the people she recognizes based on their sigils - but to us viewers they are all wearing the same or similar  greyish costumes. 

 

This season, however, they have really embraced it. Lots of colorful banners & sigils everywhere. Shields are house appropriate, and more. So props to the production crew for the added emphasis on that now. 

I felt the season premiere was great with a few quibbles. Episode 2 felt clunkier, but still flew by.

 

I was actually fairly bored with this episode. The only scenes I found really compelling were the Ironmen (surprisingly), Brienne's intro, and Arya's stuff.

 

It's not to say the show is doing anything wrong. I found the 2nd book to be fairly uneventful and a bit of a slog to read through until about the 2/3rd mark. I was surprised by how dull I found the Tyrion scheming scenes this episode. They were my favorite parts from book 2, but they just didn't feel as deftly directed here as they could've been. And Shae's scenes with Tyrion have always been a bore, so I'm not surprised I'm not caring for them on the show.

 

With the Ironmen, I was disappointed Theon wasn't drowned, which is a very interesting aspect of their culture and would've given a lot of meaning to the episode's title. Instead he was just baptized. Not quite as powerful.

 

With Arya and Joren, I liked how quickly they moved that along. In the book, there's a much more epic standoff at a castle. A battle ensues and Arya and the group go on the run and wander around for an extra chapter or two. I kinda miss the battle, but if it means we don't have to suffer through more scenes of characters wandering aimlessly, it's a good change.

 

I didn't miss Dany this episode. Her storyline in Book 2 can pretty much be wrapped up in 3 or 4 scenes.

 

Oh, and Sansa is like 6 feet tall now. :)

 

But true to the book. Theon was drowned as a child, no need to do it again. It was just a re-dedication ceremony. In the book he receives the same ceremony as he arrives on Pyke, but they adapted it to be part of his 'I'm a true Greyjoy' decision in front of his father and sister instead.
 

 

 

Agreed. I'm also happy that they trimmed some of the Arya wandering around material. It got a bit repetitive in the book, since that is what she does throughout most of ACOK *and* ASOS.

 

Fair enough about the Theon scene. I didn't recall him being drowned in the book, but I figured they might as well show it now while they're introducing viewers to the Ironmen instead of 3 seasons from now.

It may not have been in the book per se, but GRRM says so in this 'Religions of Westeros' video from HBO: (at 4:00)

But I also agree that it would be cool to see a proper drowning in the show at some point. Season 4 or 5 perhaps.

Probably once the Damphair shows up.  Makes sense that his would be a more extreme form of the religion.

Regarding the recent discussion about adaption choices - Here's a great interview with Bryan Cogman (writer of the last episode, and keeper of the ASOIAF lore on the production) on Westeros.org:

 

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Season_2_Interview_with_Bryan_Cogman/

 

Here he speaks regarding how the "Hot Pie!" yell was cut from the episode:

 

These people know the books. They care. They just have to cut and collapse stuff a LOT, it is the nature of the translation to the medium.

Weirdly, the lack of him yelling Hot Pie bugs me way more than Stannis fucking anyone, or Renly's gay dick, or any other change. It's exactly what I've been looking forward to ever since the character was introduced. At least the Greatjon is still out there.

Here is another interview with Bryan Cogman, but this time in video form (~1 hr):

 

There's a lot of talk touching on sexposition, character changes, adaption stuff, Margery, Renly/Loras, Shae/Sansa... Well worth watching.

Been a long time lurker on these boards. Huge fan of the Ice and Fire books as well as the HBO adaptation. Both threads on there forums are fantastic with great discussions, opinions and Criticisms. Except for you. This may be my only post, but i have to say, SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!! You are just complaining and making ridiculous arguments just to hijack this thread. It's fucking annoying and all it does to take away from other great observations and interactions between the chewers. The only reason i am writing this, is to make you aware of what many chewers have been subtlety trying to tell you in their response. You want to bitch that this isnt a word by word adaptation, go join a Harry Potter forum and cry with them. What works in novels doesn't always translate well to the screen. Ugh, just fuck off.