"Official" Game Of Thrones Discussion for those who have read the books. - Page 24

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Originally Posted by Richard Dickson 

Nothing to see here, move long, these aren't the imps you're looking for...

 

 

Anyone else get the feeling they're going to have Osha play the role the Reeds did in the books?

 

They've most likely just been pushed to the next season.

Yep.  Osha's going with Bran and Rickon both, I imagine.  I get the feeling Catelyn's going to pull her move with Jaime in the next episode or two.

I'm surprised they killed the Tickler already, only because I think it fits with The Hound's arc with Arya in book three when he takes him out (and the other two guys) in that inn. But I suppose they could replace the Tickler with a patch of random Frey's. 

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Originally Posted by Parker 

I'm surprised they killed the Tickler already, only because I think it fits with The Hound's arc with Arya in book three when he takes him out (and the other two guys) in that inn. But I suppose they could replace the Tickler with a patch of random Frey's. 

Not surprising since they've shit on the Hound's story since the beginning.  :-/

It's a real shame, cause that scene where Arrya and the Hound take on the Tickler and his men was truly great.

I've gotta think they include the Hound's story but just haven't gotten to it yet.  I'm thinking it will be more once they get to the battle of Blackwater.  The guy's a huge fan favorite and they've done a bit to set it up with Sansa.

The writers also might not be all that interested in him, or the actor might not exactly have a lot of range, or any number of features. Sometimes shit gets changed and somebody else gets attention.

Renly's death felt a little flat, otherwise I *really* liked the episode. Probably my favorite of the season so far.

The Dany stuff has many changes from the book, but it was probably my favorite scenes. The Nights Watch up in the north was great as well. Such epic shots!

I'm glad that both Irri & Doreah survived the red waste.  Both of them (and Dany) are very pleasing to the eyes!

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Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega 

The writers also might not be all that interested in him, or the actor might not exactly have a lot of range, or any number of features. Sometimes shit gets changed and somebody else gets attention.

 

Well, considering he's one of the more awesome characters from the books, and he plays such a big role in Arya's journey, you'd think maybe they'd get someone who'd work in the part, or at least give him more to do than just have him stand around looking bored all the time.  Maybe next episode where he rescues Sansa from the riot, we'll finally get some Hound lovin'.

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Originally Posted by Hyperspace 

Renly's death felt a little flat, otherwise I *really* liked the episode. Probably my favorite of the season so far.

 

The Dany stuff has many changes from the book, but it was probably my favorite scenes. The Nights Watch up in the north was great as well. Such epic shots!

 

I'm glad that both Irri & Doreah survived the red waste.  Both of them (and Dany) are very pleasing to the eyes!

Renly's death was definitely much better in the books.  I also thought the books handled the guards thinking Brienne killed Renly a bit better.  In the show, they guards just charge in and immediately start attacking her. 

And I'm really missing Ghost's presence with the Night's Watch.  Did they also skip the part where Jon finds the dragonglass cache?  That's kinda an important plot point.

I think probably the best scene was with Arya and Tywin, even though that was a scene totally not in the books.  They really make Tywin out to be the most common sense guy in all of Westeros.  Though I'm kinda wondering where they're going with all this.  They added the bit about Renly making nice with Catelyn and bringing Rob into the fold to support his claim, which wasn't in the books, but made a lot of sense.  So it would also make sense for Arya to have Jaquen kill Tywin too.  In the books, she never had much interaction with Tywin, but here she's actively listening to him plot to kill her brother.

Oh, and it might be a bit nit-picky, but I woulda liked to have seen more desperation in the King's Landing scene with Tyrion.  In the books, they made it pretty clear the city is supposed to be on the brink of starvation, which is what leads to the riots.

Regarding the lack of Ghost, in a shot or two you see him standing on a mountain in the background. Kinda like them at least having him in the back, I don't need him front and center but it's a nice reminder.

DOES THIS NEED A SPOILER SPACE LET'S PRETEND IT DOES

Huh. People in the other thread are not reacting well to the Shadowbaby and the use of magic, and I'm having a hard time seeing how the show will allay their concerns. I remember the ultimate fate of the Shadowbaby being up in the air in the book--it just vanishes after killing Renly, right? The implication is that it sort of evaporates afterwards? But the non-readers seem to be pretty intent on finding out whether it comes back or not, and I doubt the show will get into it. I'm not even sure they'll deal with the reasons why Mel can't just create more Shadowbabies, given how much stuff they're skimming over.
 

Even without further explaining it, it's not like it's Harry Potter-level "just wave a wand and it happens" magic.  It's totally grounded in the material, physical world.  There's a cost, be it to the sanctity of Stannis' marriage vows, the purity of his claim to the throne, the loyalty of Davos, his very independence, you name it.  It's by no means a simple matter of suddenly having the biggest bestest gun in the world.

From what I remember in the earlier episodes when majic has been performed there has always been a "Blood" cost which we have seen, we haven't seen what this cost Melisandre yet.  Her not being in this episode could be the writers way of addressing this but it may not be on the nose enough to have those watching realise this.  This series though, it's fantastic and for me hasn't made a mis step yet.  I'm enjoying the story as it unfolds and loving the whole show, I suppose it helps in that I enjoy the books but have only read them all the one time, something I am currently rectifying so although there are parts of the story I love along with characters I don't have the familiarlity with them as I do with, say, Lotr a book I read pretty much once a year and have done for 15 years.

1 Down 2 to go.

Spoiler space and all that. Don't even have the energy to capitalize this. 

I think we're going to see SAM of all people find the dragon glass armaments, which streamlines things a bit as he's the one character thus far who's actually made good use out of those weapons. Plus it gives his character more to do. Maybe we'll get more bonding scenes between him and Commander Mormont so that his eventual fate will have more oomph. 

And I really hope they deal with the struggle of which two Arya will pick next, because already people are going "No you fool! Joffrey! Tywin! The Mountain!" I think more Tywin/Arya scenes will make Arya realize that Tywin, unlike Joffrey and the Queen, wants this war to end as quickly as possible (not out of compassion, but out of practicality) and that maybe sparing him would be a good idea? Which of course she'll regret later when Tywin hatches the Red Wedding plot...of course, the show could change things to and make that an entirely Bolton/Frey plot. 

And damn, was I digging those scenes in Qarth. Bring on Meeren! This show can make that plot line shine, I'm sure of it!

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

DOES THIS NEED A SPOILER SPACE LET'S PRETEND IT DOES

 

Huh. People in the other thread are not reacting well to the Shadowbaby and the use of magic, and I'm having a hard time seeing how the show will allay their concerns. I remember the ultimate fate of the Shadowbaby being up in the air in the book--it just vanishes after killing Renly, right? The implication is that it sort of evaporates afterwards? But the non-readers seem to be pretty intent on finding out whether it comes back or not, and I doubt the show will get into it. I'm not even sure they'll deal with the reasons why Mel can't just create more Shadowbabies, given how much stuff they're skimming over.
 

I seem to remember a passage from the book that explained that the Shadow Baby could only exist as long as Stannis was asleep, since he was the one "casting" the shadow.  He saw the killing of Renly as one would see a nightmare, and the shadow disappears when he wakes up, but the cost of doing that drains him greatly, causes him to lose weight, and he is perpetually haunted by bad dreams afterwards.

I recall no such thing. It sounds like fan conjecture. But I could be wrong.

SPIOILERS.   SPOILERS.   SPOILERS. 

Was it Cersei who came up with Wildfire in the books?   I seem to recall it was all Tyrion's doing.   Not sure I'm crazy about that change.   And I take back what I said about the budget of the show.   This show looks magnificent.

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Originally Posted by dynamotv 

SPIOILERS.   SPOILERS.   SPOILERS. 

 

Was it Cersei who came up with Wildfire in the books?   I seem to recall it was all Tyrion's doing.   Not sure I'm crazy about that change.   And I take back what I said about the budget of the show.   This show looks magnificent.

You are incorrect. This was accurate to the book, Cersei had placed the initial order. 

Isn't it amazing how many complaints of "not true to the book" turn out to be the very opposite? I'm not picking at you specifically, we've all had our moments where we mis-remember something.

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Originally Posted by Hyperspace 

I recall no such thing. It sounds like fan conjecture. But I could be wrong.

I don't think it's ever explained that specifically, but a lot of it is inferred with a conversation Stannis had with Davos at one point.  If I recall correctly, it had to do with the image of Renly eating a silly peach that haunts Stannis the most.

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Originally Posted by Hyperspace 

You are incorrect. This was accurate to the book, Cersei had placed the initial order. 

 

Isn't it amazing how many complaints of "not true to the book" turn out to be the very opposite? I'm not picking at you specifically, we've all had our moments where we mis-remember something.

Are you sure about that?  In the book, Tyrion was the one who placed the Wildfire order because his plan was always to use his chain to close off the Blackwater Bay and then burn Stannis's ships, and he needed wildfire because it can burn on the water.  I'm fairly certain Cercei had nothing to do with it, and certainly Joffrey did not concern himself with plans for the war.

In the book, Cercei tells Tyrian that she's ordered they increase the wildfire production. Tyrian, concerned about the city burning apart from men throwing bombs over the city walls, (summed up via Bron in the show) comes up with the idea of the chain (although we don't understand what he's going to do with it until the end). He then goes and visits the Pyromancer and inspects their work. It happens slightly differently in the book, but the content is more or less the same.

Also, I'm surprised people are making such a big deal out of the shadow baby, and less of a big deal that Stannis just killed his brother. Shadowbaby or no shadowbaby, it's still a matter of a man killing his own brother, and being incredibly sneaky about it (which underlines his unbalanced sense of morality). 

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Originally Posted by Parker 

In the book, Cercei tells Tyrian that she's ordered they increase the wildfire production. Tyrian, concerned about the city burning apart from men throwing bombs over the city walls, (summed up via Bron in the show) comes up with the idea of the chain (although we don't understand what he's going to do with it until the end). He then goes and visits the Pyromancer and inspects their work. It happens slightly differently in the book, but the content is more or less the same.

 

Also, I'm surprised people are making such a big deal out of the shadow baby, and less of a big deal that Stannis just killed his brother. Shadowbaby or no shadowbaby, it's still a matter of a man killing his own brother, and being incredibly sneaky about it (which underlines his unbalanced sense of morality). 

The only thing I could find in the book is that Cercei ordered the smiths in King's Landing to make chainmail for the City Watch, nothing about wildfire.  That seemed to be Tyrion's idea alone in the book.  Could you provide a reference?

I think people are making a bid deal of the shadowbaby because it's basically a mideval WMD.  Now they're wondering why Stannis and Mel aren't pumping out shadow babies to kill Joffrey and stuff.  The show kinda needs to address this, I think.

Did the book address it?  I can't remember.  I know the shadow baby threwme for a complete loop until, somewhere in Storm of Swords (!), it clicked in my head and made total sense.

Also can't remember Cersei's involvement with the wildfire, but I know Tyrion found that the Pyromancers had already stored quite a few batches of it.  If not Cersei, who made the original commission?

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Originally Posted by Simon West will kill Again 

The only thing I could find in the book is that Cercei ordered the smiths in King's Landing to make chainmail for the City Watch, nothing about wildfire.  That seemed to be Tyrion's idea alone in the book.  Could you provide a reference?

Here you go, a quote from near the beginning of the "Tyrion V" chapter in ACOK, when Tyrion visits the pyromancer:

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Originally Posted by Hyperspace 

 

 

You are incorrect. This was accurate to the book, Cersei had placed the initial order. 

 

Isn't it amazing how many complaints of "not true to the book" turn out to be the very opposite? I'm not picking at you specifically, we've all had our moments where we mis-remember something.

Didn't take offense.   I'm actually a fan of the changes from the books to the show.   This one (if it turned out to be a change) would have bugged me.  Glad it wasn't the case.   It's a small thing but the CGI ships actually made me think they could pull off Blackwater.   Fingers crossed.

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Originally Posted by dynamotv 

Didn't take offense.   I'm actually a fan of the changes from the books to the show.   This one (if it turned out to be a change) would have bugged me.  Glad it wasn't the case. 

I'm truly not trying to pick a fight  - But I really don't understand what you mean by "(if it turned out to be a change) would have bugged me". What difference does it make if you find out later that this small detail was different in the book? Why would it retroactively make the scene worse for you? 

Either it works on TV as presented, or it doesn't. That's my thinking.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

Did the book address it?  I can't remember.  I know the shadow baby threwme for a complete loop until, somewhere in Storm of Swords (!), it clicked in my head and made total sense.

 

Also can't remember Cersei's involvement with the wildfire, but I know Tyrion found that the Pyromancers had already stored quite a few batches of it.  If not Cersei, who made the original commission?

King Aryes had thousands of bottles ready to consume the city.  That was one of the reasons Jamie killed him.  They went unused, stored underground.

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Originally Posted by Hyperspace 

 

 

Here you go, a quote from near the beginning of the "Tyrion V" chapter in ACOK, when Tyrion visits the pyromancer:

 

 

 

 

Ahhhh.  Okay.  Never picked up on that.

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Originally Posted by Simon West will kill Again 

 

 

I seem to remember a passage from the book that explained that the Shadow Baby could only exist as long as Stannis was asleep, since he was the one "casting" the shadow.  He saw the killing of Renly as one would see a nightmare, and the shadow disappears when he wakes up, but the cost of doing that drains him greatly, causes him to lose weight, and he is perpetually haunted by bad dreams afterwards.

Yeah, I don't recall precisely where it was explained...it might not have been until the most recent book...but Melisandre comments at one point that creating just that one Shadow "cost" Stannis quite a bit, and implies that he might not survive trying to create a second.

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Originally Posted by Jmacq1 

Yeah, I don't recall precisely where it was explained...it might not have been until the most recent book...but Melisandre comments at one point that creating just that one Shadow "cost" Stannis quite a bit, and implies that he might not survive trying to create a second.

Stannis definitely pays a lingering physical price in regards to the Shadow and subsequent Red magic.  There seems to be a law of diminishing returns with that type of magic, as was seen with Thoros of Myr and his resurrections of Beric Dondarrion; the Knight seems a little less virile with each spell cast and Thoros seems to be much the worse for wear also.  Stannis could maybe recover some of his former strength but would probably never be what he was before.  Melisandre, Thoros, and other Red Priests probably concede a little "life force," or however we want to characterize it, each time they cast a powerful spell.  On the surface it's a small detail, but one that I hope they answer in upcoming episodes or people will indeed question why Stannis and Melisandre don't just unleash shadow after shadow.  [Although, as has been questioned in the other thread, a shadow attack on Joffrey gains nothing whereas the attack on Renly gained troops.  Kill Joffrey and Tommen becomes King, with Cersei holding more sway over the throne than if Joffrey remains.  Shadows can't kill the City Guard AND all the Lannister banners]

Last week critics received episodes 5 and 6. In the summary for episode 6 it states that Arya receives a surprise visitor and spoiler sites hint that the visitor could possibly blow her cover. Who do you think it is?

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Originally Posted by Joseph P. Brenner 

Last week critics received episodes 5 and 6. In the summary for episode 6 it states that Arya receives a surprise visitor and spoiler sites hint that the visitor could possibly blow her cover. Who do you think it is?

Perhaps Lancel visits Tywin? Lancel would have seen Arya at court.

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Originally Posted by Joseph P. Brenner 

Last week critics received episodes 5 and 6. In the summary for episode 6 it states that Arya receives a surprise visitor and spoiler sites hint that the visitor could possibly blow her cover. Who do you think it is?

I Hope we start seeing a bit more of the Hound.

spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/casting-for-season-three-begins/

Kristofer Hivju auditioned for a role.

Gudmundur Thorvaldsson auditioned for Mance.

They're also holding auditions for Shireen and Daario.

SPOILY SPOILING MCSPOILERSON

Since it's been revealed that Mance was at Winterfell when Robert visited in Book One, I was kind of hoping they'd sneakily already cast him and he was there as a background extra.  Oh well.

That was never going to happen. It would have been cool - but they don't cast people two seasons before they would appear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph P. Brenner 

Last week critics received episodes 5 and 6. In the summary for episode 6 it states that Arya receives a surprise visitor and spoiler sites hint that the visitor could possibly blow her cover. Who do you think it is?

I always assumed they'd streamline things and have Roose Bolton be the one captured instead of the Glovers, but this does have me curious. Littlefinger? The Greatjon maybe? Where the hell is he, anyway? I know he's probably off somewhere fighting important battles, but it seems a mistake not to put the most entertaining member of Robb's entourage front and center. I just hope we don't lose the actor. In fact, I'm really hoping he does one last kick ass thing in the books. Isn't he rotting away in a Frey dungeon currently? 

Speaking of Bolton, I'm really racking my brain as to how Theon's arc will end this season. They've eliminated Reek, which, while streamlining things and again ensuring another actor won't be waiting around for three seasons before he gets his time to shine,  does create plotting problems. Will it be Lord Bolton who marches up and kills Ser Roderick and takes the castle? I know he's supposed to be in Harrenhall, but they could change things around. Now I'm wondering if Theon's arc this season will even end with the burning of Winterfell. I mean, it HAS to, right? But I just don't know how it'll play out. Thoughts? Theories? Speculation? 

They might just have Roose Bolton being the one to take Winterfell, with the possibility of using Ramsey a little later in the series.

Which probably wouldn't really bother me too much because the Boltons could use a good retooling.

Spoiler,

Spoiler,

Spoiler

I think that the Boltons will not be at the Red Wedding. If Rob is killed, then the Boltons show up to "rescue" Winterfell, you get a double gut punch in the last couple of episodes.   Your last shot is Bran and Hodor and Osha climbing out of the crypts to the smouldering ruins of Winterfell.

Wait is the red wedding happening this year?

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Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega 

Wait is the red wedding happening this year?

No, and you should really add some padding to your posts to hide spoilers.

Spoiler

spoiler

spoiler

spoiler

spoiler

Okay.

SPOILERS AND THIS ONE TIME MY BRAKE PADS FELL OUT OF MY CAR AND I HAD TO USE MY EMERGENCY BRAKE INSTEAD

The Bolton DO need a good retooling. I still don't know exactly WHY Roose betrayed Robb, what exactly lead him to do it. I mean, I guess maybe he was always an untrustworthy bastard, which, if THAT'S the case, why the hell did anyone trust him to begin with? That's not to say I don't like them, Ramsay is perfectly boo-hissable and Roose is actually very SCARY. I just want to see them fleshed (heh) out more before their sudden yet inevitable betrayal. More Bolton scenes please! 

And you NEED Roose at the Red Wedding, if for nothing else then for "Jamie Lannister sends his regards." Which was TOTALLY not what Jamie meant but leads nicely to Lady Stoneheart gunning for him. 

Oh, and those Brienne/Cat scenes are extra extra tragic foreshadowing there. 

SPOILER SPOILER LAH DEE DEE

SPOILER SPOILER LAH DEE DUM

I was under the impression that Ramsay did what he did in order to win favour in his dad's eyes and be legitimized. I don't know if the Boltons had it in for the Starks in particular or if it was just a power play, but there is the thing where the Starks forbid them from flaying people. But mostly I think it's just that Ramsay's a psychopath.

It's possible that Ramsay and Roose have been rolled into one character, but whether it has or not, reworking that whole business to give Theon a plotline in season 3 is a good call. And I assume Theon's plotline from book 5 might be brought forward. Actually, there's probably enough material there to cover several seasons. S3: Reek shows up and betrays Theon. S4: Theon suffers in a dungeon and does his Stockholm Syndrome thing where he starts proving himself to Ramsay...have the incident where he betrays that castle for Ramsay happen here. S5 (and 6?): the rest of his book 5 storyline, with Fake Arya and his escape from Winterfell.
 

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

spoilers!

My one main issue with the Boltons is how they become so over-the-top with their evil that they cross a line into comedy and get lost seemingly among all the other depraved characters in the novels.

SPOILERS AHOY!

YABBA DABBA DOO!  SPOILERS!

Am I the only person who completely forgot that Ramsay Bolton was the original "Reek?"  I haven't read CLASH in about a decade, so when Reek showed up in DANCE as Theon, I just assumed that was the first and only Reek.     My memory reeks.  

I like the cut of your jib.

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Originally Posted by Ratty 

SPOILERS AHOY!

 

YABBA DABBA DOO!  SPOILERS!

 

Am I the only person who completely forgot that Ramsay Bolton was the original "Reek?"  I haven't read CLASH in about a decade, so when Reek showed up in DANCE as Theon, I just assumed that was the first and only Reek.     My memory reeks.  

Actually, in fact, as I understand, and other prevarications to make this take up a little more space...

Wasn't there an actual Reek whom Ramsay later disguised himself as when that Reek died?

SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE

I think that the whole "Reek" business - that previous people have had the nickname - can be safely dropped. It really doesn't add much to the story at all, and transferring the nickname onto Theon later would just confuse viewers. Just let Theon be called "Reek".

People are (understandably) having problems just remembering the characters names without adding confusing nicknames.

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Originally Posted by Richard Dickson 

 

Actually, in fact, as I understand, and other prevarications to make this take up a little more space...

 

Wasn't there an actual Reek whom Ramsay later disguised himself as when that Reek died?

spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space

Yeah, there were 3 "Reeks".

Reek/Ramsay/Theon

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Reek