"Official" Game Of Thrones Discussion for those who have read the books. - Page 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

Westeros.org was pretty down on the episode, calling it the first genuine disappointment of the season:

 

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes/Entry/The_Old_Gods_and_the_New/Book_Spoilers/#Analysis

 

 

Their main charge, boiling all of the complaints down, appears to be that the changes being made are far removed from the spirit of the books and, on their own merits, feel lacking in logic for the sake of ramped-up tension.  They put forth some interesting points about certain changes in Harrenhal not quite making logical sense (the mis-delivered letter, the chase through the castle after Arya is caught with the letter, etc), and Qarth losing its more fantastical qualities from the book (it does feel a little stale, I'll admit).

To me this review sounds quite nitpicky, in a "I don't like the changes to the books" type of way.  Despite their attempts to explain their issues with the episodes, every single argument returns to the "that's not the way the books did it" line.  The complaint with the way the Littlefinger-Arya scene was staged seems particularly strange.  A season and a half should be enough for even the most ardent fans of the books (of which I am one) to let go of arguments about changes.  The show makes changes in a very considered way, having to deal with limitations that the page doesn't necessitate.  I can't really say I'm surprised that Elio and company are sticklers for loyalty to the books - their work on the Westeros site is incredible but certainly indicates a devotion to the source material that would make any television changes detrimental to their enjoyment.

I think Ygritte's intro has been handled fairly well, and the actress seems to capture her complexity (toughness, intelligence, warmth, affability) well.  The Qarth storyline has been boiled down to the very basics, for necessity's sake.  There isn't enough airtime to fully explore the city, not with all the plot developments in Westeros and north of the wall to cover.  And I can't imagine there not being attempts at stealing her dragons at every opportunity, so I'm cool with that development.  I thought the way the Arya chase and the Jaqen kill were handled were fairly well done.  The King's Landing riot was a little wonky at points, but again that seemed to be about money and space limitations.

Arya naming Lorch and the Tickler are about her lack of strategic planning.  Those threats were more immediate.  I think she hasn't named Tywin because she's not sure how it would immediately affect her situation, or that of her brother Robb.  But the other two deaths ended the torture and kept her theft hidden, respectively.  She can't see the bigger picture yet.  Like Jmacq said, she's a tween with little perspective on the larger events taking place.

I'd like to point out that, during their lengthy criticisms of the Harrenhal bits (specifically Arya taking the letter and her chase through the castle), they do not specifically say "This is how the books did it, and that's how the show should do it", which is why I don't buy that they're engaging in simple nitpicking.  They praise the episode's original inventions far too much to be classified as rigid purists.

With all due respect, I think it's simply easier to deflect any kind of criticism when you can accuse someone of that bias, but even saying that the book did something differently is not in and of itself a reason to discount someone's argument.  When you invoke the almighty source material for superficial changes or ones that still make sense within the logic of the story, that's nitpicky.  But the lengths the reviewers go to here (focusing on the logic of the story, filmmaking and scripting, etc) to expand on their issues strike me as less nitpicky and more well-considered.  For instance, Arya's chase isn't dismissed as a divergence from the books; it's dismissed as not following the logic or reality of what the show has presented in her scenes.

As for the Qarth criticisms, I can understand looking to the books in this case because the differences fundamentally change the atmosphere of those scenes.  I kind of agree that the city feels much too similar to King's Landing and is thus robbed of its originality.

The only reason why she'd have Tywin on her list first is if she really wanted to be tortured to death by The Tickler or The Mountain.

ETA - I'm fine with the Ygritte introduction, though I think the scene as in the book would have been a lot cooler, with sneaking up the cliff and everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

I'd like to point out that, during their lengthy criticisms of the Harrenhal bits (specifically Arya taking the letter and her chase through the castle), they do not specifically say "This is how the books did it, and that's how the show should do it", which is why I don't buy that they're engaging in simple nitpicking.  They praise the episode's original inventions far too much to be classified as rigid purists.

 

With all due respect, I think it's simply easier to deflect any kind of criticism when you can accuse someone of that bias, but even saying that the book did something differently is not in and of itself a reason to discount someone's argument.  When you invoke the almighty source material for superficial changes or ones that still make sense within the logic of the story, that's nitpicky.  But the lengths the reviewers go to here (focusing on the logic of the story, filmmaking and scripting, etc) to expand on their issues strike me as less nitpicky and more well-considered.  For instance, Arya's chase isn't dismissed as a divergence from the books; it's dismissed as not following the logic or reality of what the show has presented in her scenes.

 

As for the Qarth criticisms, I can understand looking to the books in this case because the differences fundamentally change the atmosphere of those scenes.  I kind of agree that the city feels much too similar to King's Landing and is thus robbed of its originality.

I completely understand what you're saying, and you're correct in saying that it is generally far too easy to dismiss an argument if you can throw the "nitpicky" complaint at it.  However, their analysis just doesn't hold up in the end, and despite their attempt to provide contextual analysis to their arguments they can't seem to get away from the complaints about changes from the book or betraying the tone of the books, which in the end sabotages their own points.

For instance, the Arya chase wasn't something that was done poorly or should have taken anyone out of the show.  They argue that Lorch should have called out to his men to grab the girl.  But, in that moment it is completely plausible that he would not, whether because he felt she had nowhere to run, or thought he could catch a little girl trapped in a castle occupied by his men, or that someone would take the initiative rather than having to be told to do it.  Or, maybe he was so bewildered by her insolence that he didn't think to call out.  You have to really work to find fault with the execution there.  There is just no argument to be made about this sequence because it doesn't affect the story in the least - logically, logistically, or narratively.

And their reading of the Jaqen confrontation as "humorous" is completely wrong, in my opinion.  Jaqen is agitated at Arya's urgency for sure, and the kill is deftly (and cleverly) edited, but in no way played as a joke.  In fact, it makes sense for it to be played the way it is.  Arya is desperate, and in her desperation turns to her only means of protection, but that desperation ends up creating a larger problem because now Tywin knows for sure there is a traitor in his midst.  The kill is sloppy, and hastily done, as was necessary.  And the composition and editing illustrated that desperation.  Again, Arya's lack of cunning has come back to haunt her (and the need for her later "development" will make more sense when non-book readers think back to her sloppy handling of the Harrenhal situation).

Their Qarth arguments come down to "it's not grand enough."  Frankly, this argument can't be made a season and a half in without betraying some lack of knowledge about budgetary restrictions.  Qarth hasn't had the screentime, nor the importance in terms of plot, to justify grand vistas and ornate sets.  In fact, I think they've done well with what they've got.  And then they argue that the dragon theft was a poor contrivance, while in the same breath explaining that Martin himself had to create contrivances to explain the lack of attempts on the dragons in the books.  And they assume that there won't be further attempts at stealing the dragons next season.  How in the world do they come to that conclusion?

And lastly, the Robb/Talisa scene.  They seem to strongly disagree with the circumstances surrounding their budding relationship (and is it not clear to book readers at this point that Talisa is one J.W.?).  I don't see how they can disagree with Robb's intrigue and Catelyn's concern.  Robb is attracted to her not only because of her looks, but because she challenges him.  And Cat is rightly afraid that Robb will pull some shit that will screw their agreement with the Freys.  They then concede that in essence there is nothing wrong with the scenes...except that the tone is different from the books.  Unfortunately, there isn't one example of the pair acknowledging any restraints that the medium may present to the narrative.  No concessions to budget or the production schedule or the limited number of hours HBO has to tell the story.  Until they can do that, all I'm hearing is "meh, it's just different from the books."

Quote:

Originally Posted by dajuice7 

Their Qarth arguments come down to "it's not grand enough."  Frankly, this argument can't be made a season and a half in without betraying some lack of knowledge about budgetary restrictions.  Qarth hasn't had the screentime, nor the importance in terms of plot, to justify grand vistas and ornate sets.  In fact, I think they've done well with what they've got.  And then they argue that the dragon theft was a poor contrivance, while in the same breath explaining that Martin himself had to create contrivances to explain the lack of attempts on the dragons in the books.  And they assume that there won't be further attempts at stealing the dragons next season.  How in the world do they come to that conclusion?

This. You managed to distill down one of my biggest problems with the review. This Qarth change is for the better. But they are so wedded to the source material that they cannot see it.

Jorah's first dialog in the season opener was how they had to evade certain groups (lamb people and other khalasars), because they would try to take the dragons. This is firing off that 'Checkov's gun'.

That's your call and one that I'm sure is perfectly well-reasoned.  I think some changes - and inventions - have not been as well thought out as they should have been (I have a lot of problems with the logic of Arya's scenes, especially the rather sloppy chase, and since they aren't even in the book, I think it has more to do with how they work on their own merits), which is why I found Westeros' critique to be very fair and solidly argued in both identifying and detailing where the show loses its way at points.  I think the show is fantastic, but Westeros' reviewers have done a consistently good job of highlighting some of the problems.

I still maintain that nothing in their review even comes close to outright nitpicking, but I tend to find the "Nitpicking!" dismissal to be extremely overused in the first place.

I found their review of the Robb/Talisa scene to be nonsense at best.  This is material that wasn't covered in the books, but simply couldn't be left out of the show.  To me, the complaint came down to nothing more than "I don't like it when boys talk to girls!"  Invoking 90210 just made me realize it's book nerd rage.

Or it's quite possible that they found the dialogue to be a little lacking in execution.  It's a little absurd and, if I might add, somewhat presumptuous to simplify the thought process behind their comments into "They don't like boys talking to girls!" (rather, they don't like ham-handed dialogue that seems generic and lacking a strong basis in character).  Do you either have to passively like all of the changes or be an unreasonable purist?  Is there no middle ground for book fans who are fine with changes in theory but don't enjoy them when they are poorly executed?  I'm sorry, but these accusations of "nerd rage" really aren't and need to stop being overplayed when a book fan dares to suggest that inventions of the show, even ones that could have conceivably happened off-page in the books, don't quite work for them in execution.

What I'm seeing seems to be "nerd rage" too, but it's not coming from the review.

The complaint was that Robb looked at her and Catelyn said something about it and is now a harridan.  I don't see that as being out of line on either part of the characters.  For the reviewers to bring up CW shows as a comparison is poor writing.

I just laugh at the complaints and nitpicks people have, it's almost like they forget it is a serialized show and everything is done for a reason.  Qarth complaints, and the dragons being stolen, why don't we just see where it goes?  After that, then you can nitpick all you want if it didn't work.  Just because it wasn't IN the book, doesn't automatically make it weak. 

Spoilers beware, yadda yadda sex and all that noise....

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix 

I wonder how Martin will end the series?

 

Hopefully something cataclysmic happens and wipes out most of the Houses in Westarios. There's so much shit there.

Im pretty sure that a big reveal is coming on the nature of The Others and their organization/civilization; no way they are just some unrelenting, zombie making magical horde; hell, I suspect an already introduced character will end up leading them against what is left of the kindgdoms and houses after the war; hell, if you ask me, its already suspect how The Others seems to have coerced the wildlings into doing their work for them into taking care of The Wall and the Nightwatch, plus, they seem to be bidding their time until the various conflicts continue to escalate; hell, now that i think about it, the Others become more common and active as Dany and her dragons move closer to the mainland....or is it me?

Im still convinced that there are big plans in store for Sansa; no way she doesnt end up in a position of power or takes revenge on some people; heck, my money is on her offing Littlefinger.

Also, i really, really need Bolton and Frey houses to be wiped out/eliminated in the most painful way possible.

That said, Im really dreading The Red Wedding episode; its going to be painful to watch and will probably end up being worth ten "sean bean's" in my book (i just liked Robb; favorite character in the series for me.

Spoiler space again, nothing to see, people...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTyres 

 

I finally broke this past week after Joffrey's douchebaggery. One of my viewing buddies demanded to know if that "little shit dies a terrible death." I told her yes.

The minute the whole world tunes in to see him choke to death on his own vomit while his insides melt and he shits to death, millions all over the planet will experience a fleeting, oh so brief yet so sweet and jubilant intimate connection that will be the closest well get to world peace. 

My biggest complaint so far this season is how whiny an petulant Dany is. I get that she's out of her element, but every tirade she goes on just makes me more sympathetic to all the Qarth assholes who ignore her. This is not the Dany I remember, who plays coy and ignorant to manipulate these rich, patronizing fucks. In fact, I'd say that this show has a major problem with cunning in its female characters.

Lena Heady telegraphs everything about Cersei's base scheming and self-interest, Margaery Tyrell comes flying out the gates as Femmefinger, and so on. I'm not shitting on their performances or anything, though I've never liked Heady. I just don't understand why they can't show some of that poise and duplicity these great ladies and princesses pull off when under scrutiny.

Yeah, I've definitely missed some of Dany's maneuvering in Qarth.  For a series that prides itself on more nuanced characters, some of them have been ill-served.

In the book, Dany seems more aware of her position and uses that to her advantage, instead of this screeching about what she wants and why she's entitled to have it.  She's definitely more subtle with how she plays the Thirteen, and that's been mostly scrapped in the show to emphasize her naivety and petulance.  Which is fine to an extent, because you can't ignore those qualities altogether, but there's simply too much of that.  It fundamentally changes parts of her character, and comes off terribly because Dany is meant to be older in the show.

SPOILER SPACE

I agree about Dany.  Her character's been excessively whiny (and entitled) this season, which is quite annoying.  To be fair, part of the problem is the medium.  In the books, Martin had over 1000 pages or so to get her to Qarth, meaning more character development and more learning about how to manipulate people to meet her needs.  Plus, in print, much of her whining can be internal dialogue; a television show can't really do this outside of voiceover, so her immaturity and frustration has to be more directly expressed.  And the show has had only 16 hours to this point, not much when you're trying to shoehorn in all these plot threads.  I can imagine her growth as a leader being strung out a little further as she makes her way through the Red Waste.  It's almost a necessary concession if they're going to have the time to build up her maturation while still recounting the War of the 5 Kings and the Night's Watch.  But Gods is she fucking whiny sometimes...

As for Headey as Cersei, I think she's nailing it.  As we book readers know, Cersei isn't all that great a schemer or leader.  Yes, she's ambitious, but her ambition far outstrips her ability to pull off the necessary political maneuvering required.  Tyrion knows this, Tywin knows this, and Littlefinger probably knows it too.  Cersei's plans always seem at first to succeed, then soon fall apart around her.  She's neither as subtle as Tyrion (or Varys) or as strategic as Tywin.  She gets played much more often than she plays others.  For instance, she buys the loyalty of numerous men with sex, she murders dozens of children to eliminate threats to the throne, and she tortures Sansa, Tyrion, and many others.  She's not cunning at all.  This is why I loved the added scene in the show where she shows off the source of her "power" to Littlefinger - for her, it's brute force stemming from her position as regent.  For Tyrion, Littlefinger, and others, it's cunning and wit.

Margaery's character is totally a consequence of the show needing to add more agency to her character.  In the books she's an enigma.  She's hard to read because she's so quiet and sticks to the background for quite a while (which is a smart move as Joffrey had proven himself less than an ideal mate).  We don't know for quite a while what her aims are.  This wouldn't fly with a television show.  They're not going to pay Natalie Dormer to sit around saying and doing nothing.  And viewers would eventually start to wonder why this nothing character was appearing in so many episodes.  And without the rest of the Tyrell clan (save Loras, of course), the show needs her to represent her family's interests a little more obviously.  I can't complain about this change as it makes sense and gives a great actress more to play with.

Yara/Asha, Osha, Catelyn (to an extent), Arya, Ygritte, Margaery, and Melisandre are doing a great job of showcasing female intelligence, cunning, poise, and duplicity.  Dany's growth isn't near where it needs to be yet and Cersei's character never gets to that point (which, I think, is part of the point of her character - she's not all that she thinks she is).  This all makes me wonder to what extent the show will feature the Sand Snakes, Mance Rayder's wife Dalla and her sister Val, and other female characters to come.

I don't mind Dany's portrayal at all. She is inexperienced, a bit high on her self. Qarth will be a learning experience for her. As noted above, without Dany's internal monologue/houghts, they have to make her experiences more external. Plus it is FAR more compelling television than her just mildly accepting visitors throughout most of her Qarth stay. At least the show is not treating her like we should be cheering her on - It is even pointed out explicitly how wrong she is, and how her "Targaryan" temperament is showing through.

I also think that show Cersei is a far more compelling character than the book version. Until AFFC and her POVs, Cersei is in the book basically a pantomine villain, evil for evils sake.

No doubt this has been a less impressive season for Dany than last year, not only in terms of her agency and growth, but in terms of the storyline. And of course, this can be blamed on the source material to some extent. In fact, I'd say Dany never had a plotline anywhere near as good as her stuff in the first book, and this season's Qarth adventures are possibly her least engaging. Hell, GOT has Drogo and Viserys, both excellent characters for what they are, and it ends with bonfire Dragon birth. The House of the Undying is literally the only thing I recall her doing in Clash of Kings. So that's a tough adaptation, and even though I think the actor playing Posh Spice is doing a hell of job, they've really been hitting the petulant know-nothing stuff hard, possibly to gin up some conflict.

It's not the most appealing way to present Dany, but seeing as how this show is all about shades of gray (and we don't even know where Dany ultimately ends up narratively), I'm more than willing to let them finish the season at least, and show the whole tapestry of the story they're telling with her this year. What will the warlocks teach her? And what will she have to prove to get her dragons back? They could totally pull this off. 

My bet on that House of the Undying is that she walks in at the end of the next episode. Cut to black.

ETA: I know they introduced Ser Dontos, but I'm starting to wonder if the bulk of his story will now be taken by the Hound. Possible?

Dany is compassionate, gutsy and charismatic as hell. But she DESPERATELY needs an advisor like Tyrion guiding her.

ADWD showed she's still inexperienced and bit trusting for a Ruler. Somebody's got to truthfully explain what's going on in Westaros fast or she won't be able to handle Littlefinger/Varys and the rest of the snakepit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dajuice7 

And lastly, the Robb/Talisa scene.  They seem to strongly disagree with the circumstances surrounding their budding relationship (and is it not clear to book readers at this point that Talisa is one J.W.?). 

Spoiler Space

And such

At this point, my belief is that Talisa is Talisa, and while she will serve the same role in the overall narrative as J.W., J.W. and her family may well have been written out of the show as a necessary sacrifice to the Gods of Pragmatic Adaptation.

I also forsee that she could potentially become another casualty of the Red Wedding.  Just to twist the knife a little deeper.

SPOILER SPACE

SPOILER SPACE

Oooh, I like the idea of her being a casuality of The Red Wedding. The show has done wonders for me for Robb Stark, I never really connected with him in the books. Maybe due to him never getting a well deserved chapter. Nonetheless, the show manages to make the character really likeable so that scene is going to be gutwrenching to watch. Oh yeah, Richard Madden being hot certainly helps.

As for Talisa, in cutting the family it also helps differentiate Jeyne Poole and Jeyne Westerling for the tv audience(as with Asha and Osha).

NO SPOILERS IN THE PREVIEWS

NO REALLY I MEAN IT.

I would hasten to add that it IS possible Talisa is Jeyne Westerling.  She did seem to be getting kinda dodgy when Robb (and Catelyn) were questioning her (and Catelyn at least seemed a little suspicious even if she was gracious enough not to mention it to her son).  Possibly they've beefed up her role by having her introduced as a spy in Robb's camp (The Westerlings being Lannister Bannermen in the books and all)?

I'm leaning towards my original theory (that we're just watching HBO's deft hand at adaptation at work), but wouldn't be surprised if it turns out otherwise.  At the very least it's nice we're actually seeing the relationship develop here, as opposed to the books where it just...kinda happens (due to the POV nature of the writing).

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Really? I was always under the impression that the girl with Sansa in the first season was Jeyne Poole. Maybe I read it somewhere and that made me assume, but I figured they simply alluded to her so you kind of knew who she was before her appearance as Arya Stark later. Her name is also mentioned in a ep by Sansa I believe.

Double post

Spoiler.....

Spoiler....

Well, not really

I've been searching the net for word on Ramsay Bolton's casting, but couldn't find anything.  Don't tell me his character has been cut?

Hunting Hounds to much for HBO?

SPOILER

Yeah for a second I thought Ramsay was cut too but at least they mentioned him in the last ep. Maybe the last ep he'll make an appearance?

Spoiler...

Did they mention him?  He is my favorite "evil" character of the series.

edit*

duh, How did I not put that together, when Roose talked about his bastard.  Obviously changing some stuff around, since Ramsay should a prison in Winterfell now.   I wonder if we will get some "Reek" as well.

I'm guessing they are just going to streamline Ramsay in Season 3, and have him attack Winterfell, and capture Theon, only to turn around and destroy Winterfell afterwards. 

In the commentary for the first episode D.B. Weiss jokes "See? There's Jeyne Poole right there. Stop whining." Also (and I'm glad they felt this way) when Arya does that dubbed in "Look there's Jamie Lannister, the Queen's twin brother!" they sigh and go "Yeah, not our finest moment." 

My guess is Ramsey will show up at the end of the season, but covered head to toe in that awesome flayed man armor. Though actually, I'm quite curious if they'll sloooooow down Theon's storyline so as to keep him involved throughout season 3 and 4. Perhaps actually SHOW him being brought to the Dreadfort? Maybe even have Robb visit him? The possibilities are endless, though personally I kind of like that his fate was left up in the air, and then when we drop in on him he's...well...Reek. 

And Talisa getting murdered at the Red Wedding would make things even MORE painful, buuut...the whole reason they didn't bring Jeyne Westerling there in the books was because, obviously, it would be VERY insulting to the Freys. I'm sure they can wave this off in the show though. 

As for Dany, I'm confident that she will become the  calculating and downright BOSS person she becomes in book 3 (seriously, her handling of conquering all three cities were some of my favorite bits), it'll just take well...having her dragons stolen and facing some fucked up Warlocks in order to bring that person out. Frankly, its much more interesting to see her progress to that level rather than already BE at that level, but I can understand people being annoyed by her "FIRE AND BLOOD" shtick. But, the show DID have that Old Spice guy address that, so maybe thats the point? 

I'm kind of hoping Ros is being saved for a return to winterfell... met of course with the Hounds of Ramsey.

Is that too mean?  LOL

I could totally do with them getting rid of Ramsey altogether.

Don't agree about Cersei. We know what she really is because other characters do and it's through them that we see the motivations behind her actions. In public, she's a charmer who doesn't wrinkle her brow in contempt of everything around her. At least not when we first meet her. She becomes openly diabolical the same time she becomes openly incompetent. In the show, she's introduced with basically those facts about her completely up front. I like that they added some depth in some of the TV-invention scenes (particularly the one everyone remembers with Robert) but Headey spoils it with her guileless scowling.

And I think, for once, it'd be okay if one of these female characters retained a bit more mystery. I mean, wouldn't it be nice if we didn't know what Margaery was when Sansa is so unsure of her later on? We're already gonna know she's as duplicitous as anyone in King's Landing, that her sweetness and generosity toward Sansa is a sham. The way she's depicted in the show thus far, she's just Cersei 2.0 which works with the books but is a thing maybe we shoudn't know until later.

No one else thinks they're approaching some of this stuff a bit too front-heavy?

Considering how awful and one-dimensional in the books Cersei was? No I think the show's done a terrific job with her.

Cersei's one of my favorite characters in either medium, and even I can admit she's a bit of a moustache-twirler in the books. Headey's performance humanizes her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega 

I could totally do with them getting rid of Ramsey altogether.

 Considering the path Theon goes down, I can't picture not having him.

Plus with the future of a certain inbred brat, we are going to be missing that overly evil character.

Ramsey's evil crosses over into parody.

And considering the show's worked at ironing out the kinks with so much of Martin's writing(as well as stream-lining and stripping away some of it's excesses) I'd rather see redone possibly less over-the-top Ramsey, or just give a good deal of his story over to Roose.

Maybe it's just some (extremely unpleasant) experiences I and my family have had, but I found Ramsay to be sadly believable. There really are people who get off on cruelty like that. His note to Jon was particularly well-observed trollbait. And I guess Martin's had some experiences with trolls...

...No, for the record, I have not been flayed alive. Yet.
 

Lauren, I agree with you in some ways. I'm not saying that Cersei is such an awesome character in the books and my Glob how dare they (!?). In this thread, we only express such outrage over Stannis Baratheon, amirite?

Anyways, the issue is more that while Headey's performance humanizes Cersei (and that's writing, I think, not the actress but I like it anyway) I just wanted to see a bit more of that Queenly side to her. She doesn't even fake it, that socialite breeziness that she's all about in the books, and it kinda makes the people (Sansa) who fall for it in spite of Headey's Super-scowl a bit sillier than maybe they'd otherwise be. As difficult a time as audiences had liking Sansa in S1 (let alone the books), you don't think that having Cersei put on a more convincing show of matronly sweetness would have helped?

I want to disclaim here that I'm not even talking about changes from the books. I just don't get the characterization on the show and how it really helps. It's like, Cersei's marginalization in screentime alone this season and her repetitive bouts with Tyrion do more damage to her as a three-dimensional character than lifting her straight out of the book would have. The only strategy I can imagine is that the show is less about Sansa as the anchoring character for most of these King's Landing goings-on (with Tyrion thrown in for book/season 2), thus Cersei's character is about more than just how she comes across to them. But then again, why does she have so little screen time with which so little is done then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

Maybe it's just some (extremely unpleasant) experiences I and my family have had, but I found Ramsay to be sadly believable. There really are people who get off on cruelty like that. His note to Jon was particularly well-observed trollbait. And I guess Martin's had some experiences with trolls...

 

...No, for the record, I have not been flayed alive. Yet.
 

Oh man, Ramsay totally is an internet troll brought to life. He was just born in the wrong century. Then again, this is assuming the future of the world of Westeros would closely mirror ours in terms of the technology being achieved and whoa my head just exploded at the thought of that. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega 

Ramsey's evil crosses over into parody.

 

And considering the show's worked at ironing out the kinks with so much of Martin's writing(as well as stream-lining and stripping away some of it's excesses) I'd rather see redone possibly less over-the-top Ramsey, or just give a good deal of his story over to Roose.

Well, I think that they are doing that.  A great deal of hist story has already been omitted.  No him and Reek doing "their thing".  I think they are going to save him for season 3, and play him up like he is a hero, only for him to turn around and sack winterfell.

SPOILER SPACE? IS THIS NECESSARY? WELL I'LL JUST BE SAFE.

Now that I've caught up and seen the episode, I fucking *love* the change of the warlocks kidnapping the dragons (assuming that's what's happened). In fact, it's the first significant change from the books, other than the addition of character scenes and so on, that has made me go "that's awesome" rather than "meh, that's OK I guess". Dany's storyline in book two is really a lot of wheel-spinning...it's AWESOME wheel-spinning (the House of the Undying is one of my favourite chapters in the entire series) but you can't deny that it lacks urgency, and for all the important lessons Dany learns and the danger she gets herself into, there's a sense that Martin's filling in the spot in his outline where he wrote "and then Dany has some adventures before setting out to acquire an army". As has been mentioned, having someone actually take the dragons fulfills a threat that's been looming over her since the end of last season and makes it seem much more real, plus it, y'know, ties the House of the Undying in with the overall storyline.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Quaithe is the one who gives her the advice she needs to navigate the House, which would be another great change (it would actually give the character something to do, for a start).

Now my only concern is the fact that the synopsis seems to indicate that the House of the Undying happens in the final episode, which makes me wonder what the hell is going to happen to fill up the remaining three episodes. Well, she's presumably not in Blackwater, but still.
 

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

Now my only concern is the fact that the synopsis seems to indicate that the House of the Undying happens in the final episode, which makes me wonder what the hell is going to happen to fill up the remaining three episodes. Well, she's presumably not in Blackwater, but still.

 

Well there are two confusing things for me in the synopsis for the finale. Dany "visits a strange place" and Arya receives a gift from Jaqen. Dany receives the invitation in the upcoming episode so like you said, it's weird that it would take her until episode 10 to actually go. Also, Arya names Jaqen as her third kill in episode 8 so it's weird that they would still be together in episode 10.

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Originally Posted by Joseph P. Brenner 

 

Well there are two confusing things for me in the synopsis for the finale. Dany "visits a strange place" and Arya receives a gift from Jaqen. Dany receives the invitation in the upcoming episode so like you said, it's weird that it would take her until episode 10 to actually go. Also, Arya names Jaqen as her third kill in episode 8 so it's weird that they would still be together in episode 10.

Well, regarding your second point, it's not necessary for someone to be alive in order for them to leave someone a gift.

I'm curious how the show is going to handle what happens to Tyrion at Blackwater.  I wonder if Dinklage is too high profile and too much the face of the show to bury that face behind the kind of prosthetics to give him the injury he sustains in the book.

If you spoiler me, I will spoiler you!

I think they'll skip Dany and/or Arya for an ep or two.

Thar be spoilers here.

 

And here, ye fools.

 

 

 

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Originally Posted by Richard Dickson 

 

I'm curious how the show is going to handle what happens to Tyrion at Blackwater.  I wonder if Dinklage is too high profile and too much the face of the show to bury that face behind the kind of prosthetics to give him the injury he sustains in the book.

I'm guessing if they do anything at all, it'll just be a scar of some sort.

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Yep, I'm guessing scar as well. Removing the nose is a pointlessly complex bit of FX trickery given that Dinklage's basically the star and will be on screen a lot. And I never really understood the point of his getting mutilated that badly anyway (well, other than to make it clear that it was a hardcore battle and he didn't just waltz out unscathed). Martin was constantly describing him as an ugly freak even before that, so it's not like he's lost his good looks. Ironically, Dinklage is, as many have pointed out, way more good-looking than book-Tyrion, and losing his nose would actually get him down to the level of the books, but it's still not going to happen.

Episode 9 seems to be devoted entirely to the battle of the Blackwater, so probably no Dany or Arya, but that's still a long time for them to be absent. I was guessing the finale was going to be similar to the premiere, a whole bunch of vignettes with every character without much time devoted to any one of them, which is why I thought we'd get the house of the Undying in episode 8 or thereabouts. But actually I'm now thinking they'll be splitting up that sequence between episode 8 and episode 10. Like, she goes in in episode 8 and sees weird shit, then actually encounters the Undying in episode 10. I'm wondering how she gets out of it without Drogon handy.
 

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

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Episode 9 seems to be devoted entirely to the battle of the Blackwater, so probably no Dany or Arya, but that's still a long time for them to be absent. I was guessing the finale was going to be similar to the premiere, a whole bunch of vignettes with every character without much time devoted to any one of them, which is why I thought we'd get the house of the Undying in episode 8 or thereabouts. But actually I'm now thinking they'll be splitting up that sequence between episode 8 and episode 10. Like, she goes in in episode 8 and sees weird shit, then actually encounters the Undying in episode 10. I'm wondering how she gets out of it without Drogon handy.
 

AND JUST A TAD BIT MORE SPOILER SPACE

SERIOUSLY, SPOILERS

Yeah, the whole sequence is going to be interesting. I really do hope they keep the shot of Robb's body with Grey Wind's head. It'd be pretty strong imagery. I assume Drogon and the other dragons will be where she speaks with the Undying of Qarth towards the end, but I just don't know at this point, and I kinda like it.