"Official" Game Of Thrones Discussion for those who have read the books. - Page 28

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Jmaq and Arjen - you guys couldn't let the viewers come into the Jon parentage questions on their own whenever the show got around to it?

Speak

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So... not to be that guy but  can you pre-emptively take whatever complaining you are about to do about their actions in the non-book thread to private message? Having this as a shadow government thread because we read the books is more than enough separation without it also becoming a running commentary on the non-book thread.

That being sad, I am kind of jealous. I have been superbusy the past two weekends and have missed my viewing party. I have yet to steal HBOGO from my friends, so I am behind. I have missed the classic "You Know Nothing".  I salivate at the thought of watching all three episodes back to back this Sunday.

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Originally Posted by MrTyres 

So... not to be that guy but  can you pre-emptively take whatever complaining you are about to do about their actions in the non-book thread to private message? Having this as a shadow government thread because we read the books is more than enough separation without it also becoming a running commentary on the non-book thread.

I think it is OK. It would be one thing if this thread was a constant commentary on the other thread, but it is not. That was the first post in weeks commenting on the other thread.

I get a massive amount of pleasure out of observing the non-readers react to the show. My wife had never read the books (but finished the first one around episode 6 of season 1) but now knows them better than I (as I read the first three 10 years ago). I love going into the spoiler free thread just to watch reactions, but I would be PISSED if I hadn't read the books. As a general rule, I'd suggest not posting in a thread where the books don't exist if you've already read the books. I'm sure there are hundreds of threads on the Internet that involve discussions among people who have read the books already. I realize that I'm the guy who never posts anything and prefers to sit on the sidelines and read other peoples' posts but...it's awfully hard not to unintentionally give something away in a spoiler-intense series. Personally, I think even mentioning the term "Red Wedding" is going too far.  

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Episode 10, I'm guessing Rob getting married, and Dany getting her visions.

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Originally Posted by Monster Pete 

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Episode 10, I'm guessing Rob getting married, and Dany getting her visions.

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You need to write "spoiler space" 4 or 5 times to ensure that none of your message shows up in the preview.

Sorry about that. 

I just can't get past how great the child actors are in this show.  I was watching "The Indain in the Cupboard" last night with my son, and besides the awful acting, I was hoping Arya would magically appear and shove needle through the boy going "PAZZZZTEC".

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LA DE DAH

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Yeah, I didn't read the books till after season one, but people on other boards I frequented were name dropping the Red Wedding left and right as S1 was airing even when they begged them to kindly shut up with the spoilers: "Oooh, if you think Ned's death was bad, wait till the Red Wedding." "Oooh, Dany and Drogo are so adorable! It's a shame their happiness won't last..." and so on.  

Though it was my motherfucking library that spoiled Robb's death for me -  it was right in the summary when I ordered A Feast for Crows: "the death of King Robb throws the Seven Kingdoms in turmoil." Sigh.

Oh, and Edmure Tully will appear next season. Casting is in progress. One audition tape has leaked already.

Spoil-Wait, seriously guys, this won't spoil anything at all, don't worry...

See? I knew the Tully's would come into play NEXT season. Just like I'm sure the Reeds and the Bloody Murmurs and all of them will too. Though if there's one character I'm saddened by, it's Poderick Payne. "Oh, that minor nothing of a character? Why would you want him, you loser?" You may say. Well, being as that was pretty much MY job to be an assistant to a much greater man than I, and I was pretty much the exact same stuttering mess that Pod was, he's always been my hero. And yes, I know we briefly glimpsed him earlier in the season, but I'm afraid his big heroic saving Tyrion moment will be given to Bronn, which isn't BAD per say, I just love me some Pod. 

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I really think Martin was intending Jon to be the child of (just to be safe)
 

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Lyanna and Raegar but once people figured it out he changed his plans (thus the kid in the DoD whose name I can't remember at the moment). 

Honestly I wouldn't be shocked if the series (Godwilling it lasts this long) over takes the books and is finished on screen rather than in book form. This nearly happened with Scott Pilgrim (granted, a single movie's production is much shorter than a 6 or 7 season television series) and I wouldn't be that surprised if the show's finale ends up being better than the books'. I really can't envision this series lasting beyond, say, 5 seasons (how many HBO shows have lasted that long? Especially ones that were expensive) and therefore having to cut out a ton of stuff to skip to a conclusion. I highly doubt we'll see that much from the Martells, for instance, or the extended Greyjoys or even Arya's oversea travels. GRRM has been spinning his wheels a bit and the best thing about adaptations is that they can cherry pick the best parts. 

That would be awful.  For one, it would mean the answer really is just for 'shock value.'  "Some people figured it out?  OH NO!  Uhh, this!"  Beyond that, an author should never change a storyline just because people have guessed the possibility of it.

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my what is the

world coming to?

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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

 

That would be awful.  For one, it would mean the answer really is just for 'shock value.'  "Some people figured it out?  OH NO!  Uhh, this!"  Beyond that, an author should never change a storyline just because people have guessed the possibility of it.

I suspect the same thing. I think that is why we got the huge delay on Dance and why that book was such a mess. I told a friend who is also a fan that Dance was like one long kick in the balls for the readers. It's like the entire purpose was to derail all the much speculated directions people thought the series was going (jon+dani with tyrion as hand), and hit teh reset button.

The funny thing is that with all the warging and reanimation going on, we could still see that conclusion, though I highly doubt it at this point.

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Originally Posted by Syd 

Though if there's one character I'm saddened by, it's Poderick Payne. "Oh, that minor nothing of a character? Why would you want him, you loser?" You may say. Well, being as that was pretty much MY job to be an assistant to a much greater man than I, and I was pretty much the exact same stuttering mess that Pod was, he's always been my hero. And yes, I know we briefly glimpsed him earlier in the season, but I'm afraid his big heroic saving Tyrion moment will be given to Bronn, which isn't BAD per say, I just love me some Pod. 

Don't worry. Pod will apparently show up again. (according to the actor - I forget the reference)

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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

 

That would be awful.  For one, it would mean the answer really is just for 'shock value.'  "Some people figured it out?  OH NO!  Uhh, this!"  Beyond that, an author should never change a storyline just because people have guessed the possibility of it.

I doubt he changed his mind about it.

People may have guessed his true lineage - but even if revealed to be true - it won't solve much for him or the kingdom.  The ongoing theme of the story seems to be how power is seized, and how it changes hand. Lineaga is important, but it can also mean jack shit. I don't know what the end-game is, but I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that Jon will be revealed to be a Targaryen, and everyone will be "oh... ok rule us!". It will be a lot more complicated than that. I strongly suspect that just like the last long night caused a drastic societal shift in Westeros, the coming climax will as well. Will there even be an iron throne left to rule?

If the end-game does happen to end up with Jon in a position of power (if he comes back), Jon will prove himself worthy by his actions - not his lineage.

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I'm indifferent on the inclusion of The Reeds or not, I think they'd look pretty cool on screen if done right but they easily could be written out. However, in taking them out where does that leave Rickon? Just have him tag along fighting White Walkers come the 3rd time, I just can't seem them including him. On the other hand, he's such an afterthought in the book you could beef up his importance a bit by having him hang around.

Either way, if they decide to include them I think it's perfect for next season by fluffing out the story a bit. By adding scenes for Theon, Ramsay, The Reeds, you could certainly time the season to end on The Red Wedding. That's only page 700, you have a ton of book left to start the fourth season and intertwin that with some of Feast For Crows.

Oh, and they HAVE to have Pod rescue Tyrion, what a perfect way to bring him back and get audiences to root for him. They've downplayed the rules of squires a lot in the show, but I feel the scene with Jamie was a subtle way of introducing their significance, their meaning. I think it's a perfect setup for the audiences.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

 

That would be awful.  For one, it would mean the answer really is just for 'shock value.'  "Some people figured it out?  OH NO!  Uhh, this!"  Beyond that, an author should never change a storyline just because people have guessed the possibility of it.

GRRM commented on this, and he said the plans from day 1 haven't changed.  If everyone in the world has figured it out, he still won't change it.  The revelation, if there is one, is to service the story, not to be a "shock for shocks sake" type moment.

To much pointing to Jon Snow for it not to be true

1. It's pretty much a given at this point that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together.

2. Ned found Lyanna dying in the Tower of Joy in a "bloody bed." The "bloody bed" has been referenced in the series as being synonymous with childbirth, and it's also mentioned that "a woman's battle is in childbirth," or something to that effect.

2. Lyanna begged Ned to keep his promise to her. What promise could possibly have been so huge, that Ned would feel guilty/conflicted about it more than a decade later?

3. Dany sees a blue rose growing out of a wall of ice in a vision in the House of the Undying. That's about as blatant as it gets.

4. Arya looks like Lyanna. Jon looks like Arya. Ergo, Jon looks like Lyanna.

5. While he verbally calls Jon his son (speaking to other people), Ned, in his own mind, doesn't refer to Jon as his son. It's "the boy" or "my blood." When Catelyn asks Ned about Jon, he tells her that Jon is of his "blood." He's telling her as much as he can without telling her the truth.

6. Jon has dreams where he has to confront something, a truth or personal revelation, in the Winterfell crypt. Who's buried in the crypt? Lyanna.

7. Ned refuses to talk about Jon's mother. If his mother was really Wylla (or even Ashara), why would it be such a big secret? Why not just tell Jon? Because neither of them are actually his mother.

8.  Mention of steam coming out of Snows wounds after he was stabbed.  Interesting way to describe it.  Dragon born? 

Either way, I don't think Jon Snow will end up as ruler, not his thing.  

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Y'know, guys, I'm a dude who's read all the books, and I *still* wish no one had told me the R + L = J theory. It isn't obvious at all, and is the result of hard work and deduction on the part of hardcore fans (based on, I'd like to point out, info that hasn't been revealed on the show at all yet, like the Tower of Joy and Dany's visions in the House of the Undying), but once you've heard it it's clearly correct. People toss it around like they personally figured it out. I really would have preferred the books, or show, to reveal it in its own time. How much fun is it when the guy next to you in the theater blurts out "AHA! Bruce Willis is a ghost! Pass it on!" I particularly think it didn't belong in the spoiler-free thread.
 

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You really didn't think it was obvious?  The red bed, and the "promise" Ned has to keep is as blantant as it comes.  Even the Blue Flower in the wall. 

Even the fact of Ned not telling Jon.  If it was a simple whore, or a country girl, why not tell him?  Come on Prankster, you fucking with us?

It's not in your face, but on a second read through, you get where it is headed.  There is no way that GRRM is going to pull a switch a roo.  I think even including the "saved child" of Rheagar is him hoping people second guess, or disown the Jon Snow theory.

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I could tell there was some mystery about Jon's parentage. It's not at all obvious that he's a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, if only because there's SO MUCH backstory and shit being thrown at us at that point that it's hard to know what to focus on. Maybe on a rereading of the books, or even if I'd read them when they first came out one by one and had the same wait everyone else did (I blew through the first four in the course of a few months, and only had to wait a year and a half for book 5), it would have stuck out to me, but I hardly think it's obvious. In fact it's not even obvious that you're supposed to be trying to puzzling out who Jon's real parents are. As the other thread proves, most people took the idea of him being Ned's bastard at face value.

Remember that not everyone fucking obsesses over these books--you have to really immerse yourself in Westeros and its history to start to make these connections.

For me, I read the books once, but once the TV series started up I went back and became addicted to everything "Game of Thrones"

I don't even play video games, but hearing that Skyrim was once intended to be a GOT video games, and it being obvious that much of it was influenced from the series.  I went out and bought an XBox and that game right when it came out.  I need an intervention. 

I read A LOT of fantasy books.

The theories about Jon's parentage are so easy to suss out that I'm not surprised people are already going on about it in regards to the show.

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They weren't, though, until a couple of book readers dropped in and blatantly dropped in the R + L = J theory. And the reactions have been "what are you talking about, Jon doesn't need a mystic heritage." Because the show has done nothing to make you doubt Ned's word on this. Whatever, damage done, but it's really not obvious the way people think it is. I remember the first time I saw the theory around here, in the book forum, it was spoilered, despite being a speculation.
 

damn it!  And to think, this is supposed to be a spoiler free thread.

It's just a theory in the end, nothing is foresure until the wonderful bearded fat man says so. 

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I'd consider bringing up Jon's parentage a major spoiler in my opinion. I love the series but have only read through it once and I never really looked into Jon's heritage that much. I always thought Ned was telling the truth and never thought anything of it. I barely even "Got it" now as I'm rereading the series. For my friends watching the show that haven't red the book, I haven't even mentioned the possibility of Jon's parents as a mystery, I want them to slowly think and ponder that themselves.

Yeah, I hadn't made that connection at all. Maybe I'm a lazy reader.

Then again, I probably shouldn't be reading threads about GoT if I don't want aspects spoiled. It's a fine balance.

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Well, when watchinig Star Wars, no one thought to ask the same question about Luke.  I for one, would have hated it if Lucas had that as a theme of the first one, and would hate it if Jon's parents were a focal point.  It's a real slow burn, and I'm actually nervous that if the 6th book explains that Jon is who I think he is, the series might blow their wad early in hinting it. 

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

Remember that not everyone fucking obsesses over these books--you have to really immerse yourself in Westeros and its history to start to make these connections.

You really don't.  I first considered the possibility while reading Ned's fever dream in A Game of Thrones, before the show aired and before I looked up any fan sites or theories online.  And there's a literal fuck ton of talk about Rhaegar being a really intelligent and fair child in the books -- not at all the monster Robert seemed to describe -- as well as multiple mentions of the tourney where he gave Lyanna the flower.  I'm not saying you have to be dense to miss the clues, but it's a total misnomer to say it's so veiled that people can't suss it out without help from others.

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I've read through the thread, but has anyone mentioned that Ramsey Bolton is the guy who's been with Theon since he got his ship in Pyke?  The one pushing Theon to kill, make decisions, etc.?  Ramsey was the one who suggested they kill those farm kids in the books, and it happened that way in this week's episode.  I suspected that back when Theon first met him in Pyke, but to me, this week's episode sold it.  Plus that guy kind of looks like Roose.

This week's episode was great.  They have so much left for the last two episodes, though.  Can't wait to see how it all goes down.

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Originally Posted by Joe 

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I've read through the thread, but has anyone mentioned that Ramsey Bolton is the guy who's been with Theon since he got his ship in Pyke?  The one pushing Theon to kill, make decisions, etc.?  Ramsey was the one who suggested they kill those farm kids in the books, and it happened that way in this week's episode.  I suspected that back when Theon first met him in Pyke, but to me, this week's episode sold it.  Plus that guy kind of looks like Roose.

Nope, that's a ridiculous theory, IMO. They are simply using some of the Ramsay material for Dagmer. Also, did you miss how Roose referred to his bastard at the dreadfort?

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Originally Posted by Hyperspace 

Nope, that's a ridiculous theory, IMO. They are simply using some of the Ramsay material for Dagmer. Also, did you miss how Roose referred to his bastard at the dreadfort?

I did hear Roose refer to his bastard at the dreadfort, but I assumed he was talking about Dagmer.  Yea, that all completely went over my head, but it's difficult making sense of the changes from the books at times.

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Originally Posted by Joe 

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I've read through the thread, but has anyone mentioned that Ramsey Bolton is the guy who's been with Theon since he got his ship in Pyke?  The one pushing Theon to kill, make decisions, etc.?  Ramsey was the one who suggested they kill those farm kids in the books, and it happened that way in this week's episode.  I suspected that back when Theon first met him in Pyke, but to me, this week's episode sold it.  Plus that guy kind of looks like Roose.

 

This week's episode was great.  They have so much left for the last two episodes, though.  Can't wait to see how it all goes down.

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I actually questioned that for a moment, but couldn't come up with an excuse as to why Ramsay would ever be in Pyke. Once Roose made the mention of his bastard, I assumed I was looking too far into it. It would be quite the reveal as the guy does have a slight resemblance towards the actor playing Roose for sure.

You see this thread, don't even LOOK AT IT... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!

So, what is everyone's opinion of Jaime Lannister in the books?  He seems to be a bit more evil in the TV series, but maybe that will change.  I always viewed his character as a sad one.  The true story of him and the Mad King isn't a known one around the kingdom, and for all intensive purposes he saved Kings Landing during Robert's rebellion.  Even his elevation to the Kings Guard wasn't because of who he was, it was because of who his dad was and how the King didn't want Tywin to have any heirs.  I even despised the way Ned Stark wanted him to join the Nights Watch after the war was over, sure, Jaime watched Ned's brothers burn, but really, what could he have done.  Like he said this past episode, break vows to honor other ones. 

Perhaps, but it makes the thread more annoying to read. (clicking on every post to see enything)

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Originally Posted by Monster Pete 

 

So, what is everyone's opinion of Jaime Lannister in the books?  He seems to be a bit more evil in the TV series, but maybe that will change.  I always viewed his character as a sad one.  The true story of him and the Mad King isn't a known one around the kingdom, and for all intensive purposes he saved Kings Landing during Robert's rebellion.  Even his elevation to the Kings Guard wasn't because of who he was, it was because of who his dad was and how the King didn't want Tywin to have any heirs.  I even despised the way Ned Stark wanted him to join the Nights Watch after the war was over, sure, Jaime watched Ned's brothers burn, but really, what could he have done.  Like he said this past episode, break vows to honor other ones. 

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Upon reading the third book the first time, after Jame's first chapter of Storm of Swords I was almost completely drawn to him. I immediately felt for this guy, I totally got where he was coming from and really identified with  him. I was then and now a Jamie Lannister fan now. I feel like next season he's going to be for the non book reader's point of view the main character. He totally changes your views on his throughout the book and really shows that he honestly means the best and isn't what he seems. TV readers will love the reversal as well (I can't even imagine their appreciation for Reek once he arrives) and it's best to flesh him out well over the third season.

I don't mind that they show him being a little more ruthless in the show, which makes his eventual turn that much more heartfelt. That scene with his cousin was brilliant, despite it's clear intentions once his cousin started to schooch on over. I'm more excited for season three than I can believe, not only to see how they depict the Red Wedding but to see if they flesh out Theon's and Jamie's character's a bit more than originally given.

I can't bloody wait for next season.  I was worried for Season 2 because, as the books go, I'm cooler on A Clash of Kings than (most of) the others -- and they've knocked it out of the park.  I can't wait to see A Storm of Swords tackled by this group.

I agree, I liked Clash but not my favorite by any means. Doing a second read with the season, only 50 pages to go and It's still good but doesn't have much of an impact for me, but the show has done wonders with some of the second book's lackluster chapters. With the relative ease the show has adapted the book, I'm even more intrigued for some of Feast which is by far my least favorite of the series. Creative freedom can make some of dragging scenes in Feast a little bit more interesting.

Woah, here is the first image from "Blackwater"... (airing next Sunday, not this Sunday)

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Originally Posted by philmooreslim26 

I agree, I liked Clash but not my favorite by any means. Doing a second read with the season, only 50 pages to go and It's still good but doesn't have much of an impact for me, but the show has done wonders with some of the second book's lackluster chapters. With the relative ease the show has adapted the book, I'm even more intrigued for some of Feast which is by far my least favorite of the series. Creative freedom can make some of dragging scenes in Feast a little bit more interesting.

Combining Feast and Dance could work wonders.  Feast is flawed, but there's some great stuff in it.  The show's already found a nice balance between what to cut and what to embellish on.  Further, I flat-out loved A Dance with Dragons.

Yeah I can't wait to get to my second read for Dance with Dragons. The Tyrion chapters are pretty heavy on history which I appreciate, but Penny is a throwaway character (who could quite possibly be written out), Barristan comes off like a complete badass, the whole Griff reveal is pretty cool and I can't stress how well-written the Reek chapters are. I found myself desperate to read the next chapters.

And that shot of Blackwater is incredible, I keep telling my friends this will be the ep to watch for sure if you want action. I kept reading your posts about Neil Marshall being perfect for directing this ep and finally looked him up to see what I would know him for. I had no idea he was involved in some of those films. I love the film The Descent and had no idea he was involved in it, and anyone who considers Big Trouble in Little China as a reference is pretty spectacular in my eyes.

Wait Neil Marshall is directing that episode Oo.  Oh man this is going to be good.

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Originally Posted by Monster Pete 

You see this thread, don't even LOOK AT IT... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

So, what is everyone's opinion of Jaime Lannister in the books?  He seems to be a bit more evil in the TV series, but maybe that will change.

If anything, I think the show has just emphasized his nihilism a bit more.  He's in a position where he's in love with his sister (and thus will never be fulfilled romantically), he has been branded as a Kingslayer (and thus gets no respect from those knights he idolized as a child), and has witnessed horrible things that no one else will ever know or understand (under the Mad King).  They just haven't explained those points as clearly in the show, so it seems a little weird for him to be so bleak.

I agree that the characterization is different in the show vs. the books, but I think it's still within the same reasonable ballpark.  I would say the book does a better job of having his humanity leak through in the early parts.

Evil would be more like The Mountain and his men (or of course Ramsey once he gets introduced).  Actually, in that respect I don't think that they've emphasized enough how twisted and sadistic The Mountain and his men are.  His presence in the show has been so small that he barely registers as having any character at all.

I disagree--Jaime's a bastard through and through for the first book, and you only get the barest hint there might be something else beneath it by the end of the second book. Then you get the revelation about his history with Aerys, which I honestly think is a retcon on Martin's part when he realized he wanted to make Jaime more sympathetic. I'm surprised by the fact that his real reasons for Kingslaying have apparently been casually tossed out in the supplemental materials, since I thought that was a major revelation that changed our whole view of the character.

I've gotta say, too--I'm not really clear on why he killed Alton. Like, why didn't they both just fake illness, and then they could have teamed up to escape? That seemed like a forced point to emphasize what a bastard Jaime is, which is odd since this is around the time we should be getting to feel more sympathy for him.

I think the Mountain and company have been emphasized as plenty evil. They made it pretty clear he was a sadist in the first season, and characters like Lorch and the Tickler were pretty obviously awful. If there's anything that could be hit a little harder it's the grim, oppressive atmosphere of Harrenhal--all those open courtyards make it seem a little too elegant--but there's no denying a lot of awfulness has been going on in that place.
 

Maybe I'm misremebering since it has been years since I read  the books.  But I thought that even in the first encounter with Jaime ("the things I do for love") he was reluctant to push Bran out the window.  My impression was always that Jaime wanted to appear carefree and nihilistic but that internally he was still battling with his conscience.
 

That's the picture of the character that emerges in the third book, once we get inside his head. But in the first two books he comes off mostly as nasty and unlikeable, though not without some nuance. You're right that he didn't leap to push Bran out the window and waited for Cersei's go-ahead, but that's a far cry from being reluctant to do it.

Even with the later information we receive about why he killed Aerys, we never really learn why he was sitting on the Iron Throne when Ned rode up. I guess he might have done it to screw with Ned's head, though given the momentous thing he just did you wouldn't think even Jaime would be in a joking mood.