"Official" Game Of Thrones Discussion for those who have read the books. - Page 33

Just finished watching the episode and am now listening to some seasick steve and eating some m&m's this should be enough text to hide anything else.

I enjoyed the episode, I liked Varys and they seem to be setting Roz up to stay around a bit longer.  Robb's marrage seemed to happen pretty quickly and I don't think we needed to have seen the ceremony, Catelyn going mental at him would have sufficed imo.  The house of the UNdying was about how I thought they would show it although when Pyat Pree mentioned that time worked differently in the HoU that there would have been a payoff moment when she left but no, also we didn't see it burning down either :'(.

One thing about the ending, for some reason when they showed the Other (I'm assuming that's what it is meant to be) the Children of the Forrest popped into my head.  Could the others be Children who are now taking their revenge on the Andels for forcing them from their lands?  No idea if that's been talked about before but I imagine it has.

re: Deny back in Westeros.

Yeah, I don't know why that means that in the slightest. And I hope they follow her book three progression a little more closely, because it's kind of amazing and one of my favorite parts of the book (and the series).

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At this point, I'm fairly sure that Dany's return to Westeros is a "final book only" event...probably just in time to use her dragons to help fight back a White Walker invasion.

Though I'm also deathly curious as to whether Aegon is a red herring or going to end up a major player by the time all is said and done.  If it's the latter, talk about a mid-series swerve....

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Originally Posted by Jmacq1 

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At this point, I'm fairly sure that Dany's return to Westeros is a "final book only" event...probably just in time to use her dragons to help fight back a White Walker invasion.

 

Though I'm also deathly curious as to whether Aegon is a red herring or going to end up a major player by the time all is said and done.  If it's the latter, talk about a mid-series swerve....

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If Aegon turns out to be another Quentyn Martell, I would be very disappointed. Quentyn's chapters are still pretty much the only book chapters I flat-out do not enjoy, and even Tyrion's perspective on Aegon doesn't ameliorate the somewhat tedious action in Aegon's storyline. I sincerely hope he is a major player in some way.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

I really liked the House of the Undying -- tempting Dany with things she can have now works better on screen than random images of things that happened or will happen.

I agree - I thought the HOTU worked really well. If I had a complaint, it would probably be that Dany would be a bit more frenetic/passionate when she spoke 'Dracarys'. 

Then you're attacked by two other spoilers you didn't even know were there. The point is, you are alive when they start to spoil you.

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I LOVED Quentyn Martell, and I hope they do his stupid idiot stuff justice. 

And who cares about Dany's plotline? I don't know if you noticed, but the ICE ARMOR WASN'T RIGHT.

This weekend I saw the Game of Thrones season finale and paid to go watch Snow White and the Huntsman in theaters. I don't want to create a false equivalency or anything, but suffice to say that complaining about anything Game of Thrones is doing lately seems a bit, oh, churlish. I mean, sure, what are these boards for if not to nitpick, but there's nothing I'm enjoying as much as this show lately, and it's a high point of the week that I will very much miss, at least until Breaking Bad gets going. I thought the season was just great.

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I wanted to echo what someone else mentioned. I'm almost certain that on the wide shot of the whole undead army that there were other White Walkers on horses that DID have armor on. I imagine there are different types of White Walkers. The one that got the closeup is a kind of shaman or something, one that fights with more magic than weapons (his weapon looked vaguely staff-like). They probably just didn't feel like tackling the shimmery-colored armor thing this season.

Anyone else wonder in their head how long Xaro Xoan Daxos would sit in the dark in that vault before suggesting that he and that handmaiden get it on as many times as possible before they finally die?

295 more days till Winter. 

Fuck True Blood, time to scrap that show, give the budget to GoT and have 22 episode seasons.  Then a prequel series inbetween that shows us Robert's Rebellion.  Time to start a petition!  LOL

There are White Walkers and there are wights.  The White Walkers are the ones in control -- the ones on horseback, the ones who can communicate.  The wights are just reanimated corpses.

The thing about the HotU is that they've paced Dany's storyline very weirdly this season. Yes, not much happens to her in book 2 plotwise, but there's still a sense of payoff and interesting stuff happening. The HotU sequence seems to take up, like, a third of the pages devoted to her storyline in the book, so cramming it all into the finale was always going to seem lopsided. And it had to be a total homerun to make it seem worth it, which it sounds like it wasn't. Now we've got all these people grumbling about how lame Dany is, with some justification, but which sucks because I love her material in the books. Hopefully the next two seasons will win everyone back.
 

Dany's climax was a total home run for me. No question.

I have to tread lightly here, because I don't want it to be said I'm advocating for "turn your brain off" consumption of media. But here goes: At what point do all of these criticisms outweigh the wonder, awe, and emotional investment this show has brought us? My experience with this show has made me revise my opinion of the perjorative term "fanboy," I love it (the show) so much, and I'm increasingly oblivious to the details that seem to be massive disappointments to a lot of other viewers. Am I touched in the head or something? Because having read the books, then watching the show and being utterly floored by it, I can't help but ask if my expectations are abominably low or others' expectations are exceedingly high. It seems to me the latter would really limit my enjoyment of the show.

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Carice van Houten said in an interview that she threw Davos in jail in the finale so I guess they cut that scene. I'm also unsure of how they could have even fit that into the finale when Davos was last seen being blown off his ship and into the water. Then you would need scenes of him floating in the wreckage, being rescued, plotting to kill Melisandre on his return, etc.

Ha... I guess I managed to get myself banned from the westeros.org forums, after replying to Linda's (one of the site admins) thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67730-book-spoilers-game-of-thrones-an-adaptation-of-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-not-any-more/

Here is her post, abbreviated: (see the link above  for the full one)

In one single post, Linda manages to crystallize the very worst of ASOIAF fandom. If it isn't done my way, it is shit. Essentially.

My reply to her was that I was glad that she showed her true and honest opinion of the show. Would she dare to state that on the SKY+ interview, or just be bland to drive site visitors?

And now I'm not allowed to post there anymore.  We'll see if it is temporary or permanent.

LOL, Hyperspace, I would take the banning as a badge of honor.   From my experience, Westeros.org has a few too many slavering book purists who worship at GRRM's every word...and full of a bunch of misogynistic  assholes who hate every female character who isn't Brienne or Arya. Linda is one of the worst...she's a nasty little troll, but apparently she's tight with Martin in real life, sigh.

They had an entire thread dedicated to complaining about how many female fans the series has garnered. Hopeless.

I was a little let down by the House of the Undying as well, but after reconsidering, a lot of the stuff just wouldn't work in this adaptation. All the foreshadowing would just be plain confusing for the Unsullied at this point. I don't even think non-book readers are really clear who Rhaegar is. I'm just sad that the perfect opportunity to bring back Harry Lloyd in a slightly different wig was passed up, though Jason Mamoa was a fine compromise.

The show seems to be doing away with prophecy for right now, and it's an interesting decision, given how obsessed Dany and Cersei are with them, but it's something that doesn't translate so easily.

For me HoD was a B+ sequence when I was hoping for an A+.  I ain't bothered.

God, I just want him to finish it. Just finish it in time for the show to not get fucked up.

How will that work, if he can't get the books done in time? Does the show have to go off into some alternate timeline, or does Martin tell them what happens and the books become a sort of adaptation of the series? I truly think it's possible the show is damn near become the HBO flagship show, if not in ratings, certainly in attention from media outlets. And certainly in rabid fans; Boardwalk Empire is not going to generate this kind of merchandising. So I imagine two more seasons are just about guaranteed, and a third is likely. Do you think the series reaches the end of Dance With Dragons after four more seasons? I can't imagine the material supporting more than that.

And what happens with the continually spreading canvas? The consistent criticism this year was that by jumping around so much, the show has been losing narrative steam and control over certain characters (like Dany). If they follow the books, that is going to get worse before it get better. When you're jumping from Arya in Bravvos to the Greyjoy kingsmoot to the Martells doing nothing in Dorne to Jon at the Wall to Brienne looking for Sansa to Sansa doing nothing at the Eyrie to Theon getting tortured by the Boltons to Dany in Mereen to Tyrion looking for Dany to Margarey fighting Cersei at Kings Court to Bran hiding in the woods, surely there might be some transition issues to sort through. My bet is we'll go entire seasons without seeing Bran or Arya, or next year, Theon. 

Weiss and Benioff have given themselves one of the hardest jobs in Hollywood, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd 

God, I just want him to finish it. Just finish it in time for the show to not get fucked up.

 

How will that work, if he can't get the books done in time? Does the show have to go off into some alternate timeline, or does Martin tell them what happens and the books become a sort of adaptation of the series? I truly think it's possible the show is damn near become the HBO flagship show, if not in ratings, certainly in attention from media outlets. And certainly in rabid fans; Boardwalk Empire is not going to generate this kind of merchandising. So I imagine two more seasons are just about guaranteed, and a third is likely. Do you think the series reaches the end of Dance With Dragons after four more seasons? I can't imagine the material supporting more than that.

 

And what happens with the continually spreading canvas? The consistent criticism this year was that by jumping around so much, the show has been losing narrative steam and control over certain characters (like Dany). If they follow the books, that is going to get worse before it get better. When you're jumping from Arya in Bravvos to the Greyjoy kingsmoot to the Martells doing nothing in Dorne to Jon at the Wall to Brienne looking for Sansa to Sansa doing nothing at the Eyrie to Theon getting tortured by the Boltons to Dany in Mereen to Tyrion looking for Dany to Margarey fighting Cersei at Kings Court to Bran hiding in the woods, surely there might be some transition issues to sort through. My bet is we'll go entire seasons without seeing Bran or Arya, or next year, Theon. 

 

Weiss and Benioff have given themselves one of the hardest jobs in Hollywood, in my opinion.

As far as the "show outpacing the books" concerns go, I'm pretty sure I read a quote from Martin saying that he's already provided "those that need to know" at HBO with an outline of how things are supposed to end up, and if the show gets to that point, he'll help Benioff and Weiss finish the story off on TV before it gets finished in the books.

I for one, loved Dany walking around at the end with her dragons crawling over here.  Just seemed so badass.  

Indeed. :)

I've nearly forgiven her for weeks of "Fiyah and Blud"! and "My dragoooons!" Now Dany just needs to be fierce every episode next season instead of saving it all for the finale and we're good.

I must state again how much I like the tweaked look of the White Walkers: (nice detail on this image)

I like the 'elder' look of this one. The beard and long hair is a cool touch. Plus he is rocking a cool ice spear:

Another interesting point is that in the last pull back shot, there is a WW with partial armor and a helm of some kind. (for book readers who needed that)

Is that an actual "Other", or one of their wights/zombies? (I haven't watched the ep yet, but am cool with spoilers, as I've read all the books [save DWD, which I started but did not finish].)

That's a White Walker.  The wights look more like straight-up zombies.

I think they both go under the category of "White Walkers". The dude who got beheaded said "I saw the White Walkers", plural. Of course this is all pretty vague.
 

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Seems like a pretty even split here as far who liked vs. didn't like the changes made in the second season adaptation. I, for the most part, enjoyed them. M\y wife, ever the purist, did not. My first issue was that, as stated by several others here previously, The House of the Undying was a big letdown for me. It certainly didn't need to be the same visions as the book (nor should it have been), but it could've, and perhaps should've, been more far reaching than just the iron throne in a broken and battered King's Landing and a "what could have been" life with Khal Drogo and a son she'll never have. I think both those sequences were fine, but I wanted more - what about other possible futures? Visions of the past? As that banning super-fan moderator on westeros.org stated, showing Rhaegar would be difficult, as the non-book readers really would have no idea who he was, but why no mention of the prophecy of the prince that was promised? The song of fire and ice? It seemed a great opportunity to introduce this concept... I think that the showrunners are still shying away from this being a fantasy series. I would've even been happy to see a possible nightmare future in which Viserys still lived, to illustrate how Daenereys can and will be a better leader than he could've been (provided she stops whining).

The second was that I was also not a fan of the shortchange that the Jon/Quorin storyline got, felt far too rushed when Jon did the deed.

But hey, I loved the integration of Tywin into Arya's story, just about everything that Alfie Allen's been doing as Theon, and the Rob scenes that only previously happened "off-book". All in all, a really solid season of storytelling. And I'm sure I'll be a lot happier with the Dany the Conqueror storyline next year, as well as Jon integrating himself in the Wildlings. Did Mance get cast yet?

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

I think they both go under the category of "White Walkers". The dude who got beheaded said "I saw the White Walkers", plural. Of course this is all pretty vague.
 

That's one of my fan quibbles; there's a distinct difference between the wights and the Others in the books (with Coldhands being the apparent anomaly). The series seems to conflate them or at the very least uninterested in distinguishing them for the viewers.

I thought the books weren't very clear on distinguishing the two either, personally.
 

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

I thought the books weren't very clear on distinguishing the two either, personally.
 

Really? It was incredibly clear to me. The Others wear ice armor, wield ice swords, and aren't animated human (or animal) corpses. Wights are dead humans or animals now under the thrall of the Others, and appear to be essentially unthinking killing automatons. Royce fights and is killed by an Other ("white walker") in the first book's prologue (and is subsequently transformed into a wight). The Old Bear is attacked by a wight, as is the Fist of the First Men. Sam kills one of the Others with an obsidian dagger. Coldhands is a wight, but also appears to be something of an anomaly, as he (it?) seems to be able to make choices that contradict the Others.

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After reading the books, I had completely forgotten who Rhaegar and Lyanna were. I had no clue about the Jon Snow theory. I did not understand the distinction between the wights and the White Walkers.

There is a severe disconnect between the needs of the hardcore audience and the casual reader/viewership. I am very grateful that the show's creators understand that distinction, because pandering to the hardcore would not make for as enjoyable (or comprehendable) viewing experience.

One small question about the burning of Winterfell, I king of don't get why or who did it. I guess it could be the Lannisters but that would seem too sudden and what sense would it be the men from Pyke after what they did to Theon and would get all of the wrath of the North against them, really mysterious. I havent gotten to book 2 yet but after watching the last episode that kind of confused me.

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Originally Posted by Arturo RJ 

One small question about the burning of Winterfell, I king of don't get why or who did it. I guess it could be the Lannisters but that would seem too sudden and what sense would it be the men from Pyke after what they did to Theon and would get all of the wrath of the North against them, really mysterious. I havent gotten to book 2 yet but after watching the last episode that kind of confused me.

I was confused about this as well, and I have read the book.  Unless I am remembering incorrectly, in the books, the Bastard Bolton showed up, killing the Northmen, and in the process taking Winterfell from the Iron Islanders.  In the show, I figured they changed it up a bit, with the Pikers betraying Theon and turning him over to save their own skin.  Winterfell is surrounded by northmen (I'm assuming the Bolton's men) who as far as I can tell are still loyal to Robb.  Next thing we know Winterfell is burned down.  Who burned it down and why?  It looked like the Pikers were surrendering, and the Boltons had no reason to burn Winterfell down.  Did I miss an errant torch falling down in the background or something?

They left it a mystery until next season for some goofy reason.

It's one of the main problems I have with the final episode.

Wasn't it established a few episodes ago that Yara isn't very far away with a pretty big contingent of her own?  Seems reasonable that she may have heard that Theon was beseiged and came to help.

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

I thought the books weren't very clear on distinguishing the two either, personally.
 

Yes, the books are clear.

White Walkers = Others = The ones raising the dead, not human.

Whights = Zombies raised from the dead by WW/Others

I continue to be surprised that so many book readers miss this.  But then again I'm sure I miss a ton of other stuff.

The show hasn't been as clear - but if you pay attention, there are differences, and Sam uses the proper terms.

Having read each book only once circa the time of release, there are far too many details to keep up with given the gap between books.  I give props to people who can keep the names straight outside the primary POV characters, but I'm mostly left with just the broad strokes.  The bent of modern fantasy writers to fall in love with their own words has rendered me unwilling to pour over details the way I once might have.

One small thing I liked in the House of the Undying sequence was the constant background screaming of the dragons continually pulling Dany along.  Really gave me that feeling that Pryat Pree bit off more than he could chew.  While I would have liked some more to the sequence, I'm glad they dumped the flashbacks and prophecy stuff.  As others have said, I don't think flashbacks would have made much sense to viewers in this format.  And prophecy, well it's right near the top of my list of the most annoying fantasy tropes.

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Originally Posted by Hyperspace 

Yes, the books are clear.

 

White Walkers = Others = The ones raising the dead, not human.

 

Whights = Zombies raised from the dead by WW/Others

 

I continue to be surprised that so many book readers miss this.  But then again I'm sure I miss a ton of other stuff.

 

 

The show hasn't been as clear - but if you pay attention, there are differences, and Sam uses the proper terms.

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Yes, I got that eventually, but on my first readthrough it wasn't clear. I just assumed the thing that Sam killed was just a particularly nasty undead creature. Martin doesn't specifically say "this one wasn't like the others" or anything.

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Originally Posted by Parker 

 

At this point, the only reason Theon kills two kids and props them up like Bran and Rickon is to try and fool the audience for the episode. It has almost no bearing on the story whatsoever and failed to motivate characters in the way it should have. I don't even think people know that Bran and Rickon are "dead" yet. Really damn sloppy.

It's really sloppy that Robb and Catelyn were never made aware of those deaths.  Even with their motivations made much too simple in the show (Robb's more interesting motivations for marrying Jeyne, revolving around his trying to carry his father's concept of honor after he makes a mistake and sleeps with her, are just completely dropped, but knowing that two more of his kind are dead could have provided some stronger emotional turmoil), it completely baffles me that the show never really does much with the apparent deaths of Bran and Rickon after the cliff-hanger aspect of it is no longer there when they are soon after revealed to still be alive.  Not having Robb and Catelyn informed robs their final scenes this season of a greater sense of emotional urgency.  Catelyn's decisions still make some sense, but they lose a lot of their power as presented in the show.

Just a thought I had after re-reading the last few chapters of Clash:  as good as the scaled-down scene with Joffrey granting titles and other gifts to those who gave their services at the Blackwater was (even though I wish Kevan Lannister had been present, a favorite side character of mine whose relationship with Tywin is one of my favorite relationships shown in the book), the most memorable part of that scene for me after Joffrey agreeing to marry Margaery was some of Stannis' defiant bannermen, given the option to swear fealty and live to serve Joffrey, openly insulting him.  In his rage to see them killed for their insults, Joff cuts his arm on one of the throne's edges and a bannerman/Lord of Light zealot says something along the lines of "even the throne denies the king".  Such a potentially tense, although admittedly very unnecessary, moment, especially when Joffrey gets visibly upset and calls to Cersei.

It goes without showing that the majority of Stannis' bannermen would declare for Joffrey, but that bit in the book was a small "wrap-up" moment made especially memorable.  Still a well-adapted scene, though, that made all of the necessary points that needed to be (the Lannister/Tyrell marriage being of the most importance).

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Originally Posted by kernel 

One small thing I liked in the House of the Undying sequence was the constant background screaming of the dragons continually pulling Dany along.  Really gave me that feeling that Pryat Pree bit off more than he could chew.  While I would have liked some more to the sequence, I'm glad they dumped the flashbacks and prophecy stuff.  As others have said, I don't think flashbacks would have made much sense to viewers in this format.  And prophecy, well it's right near the top of my list of the most annoying fantasy tropes.

Agreed on prophecy... No matter how oblique it may be, predestination is almost always a lazy story-telling device. I had actually expected them to include the prophecies in the House of the Undying sequence, though, but was totally okay with them being left out. The burned-and-frozen throne room and the exchange with Drogo were good enough for me ("I told the Great Stallion to go fuck himself" was worth the changes alone).

But I was disappointed with the lack of weight in the rest of the sequence. Maybe it was because the Undying seemed to consist entirely of Pree just replicating himself. Maybe it was the staging of Dany's confrontation with him, which seemed a little weak. In any case, I'd anticipated a big, season ending event and that wasn't it. So the show had the White Walkers up their sleeve instead, and that was fine.

I was more bugged by the ambiguity at Winterfell, like others wrote above. You'd think Luwin would have known the score, at least, and warned Osha and the others what they may have to deal with as they made their escape... but no.

I've applauded most of the alterations they've made from the books this season, but there have been a few that have left gaps in logic like this. It seems they make relatively small changes in order to serve a stream-lined, TV episode and season format, while still keeping characters and events intact because they're important later down the line. And they don't always make sense.

For instance: Unlike in the book, Osha seduces Theon in order to take the boys out of Winterfell, and doesn't do the obvious thing while she's at it and slit Theon's throat while he sleeps... because the story needs Theon later. Similarly: Arya has a relationship with Tywin that is an invention of the show (of which I loved every second)... but she only thinks to have Jaquen clip him when Tywin is already heading out of Harrenhal and it's too late. 

I'm pretty sure these instances have been brought up in this thread before, and they're pretty nit-picky. Overall, this was a damned good season of television-- and the series has mostly been an improvement on the books in my humble opinion. I hate that I'll have to wait ten fucking months to see another new episode. 

I know it's not the most popular opinion when most people have said that this season was an improvement if not consistently good with its changes, but I think that while the series is a very good adaptation of the book, it's not an improvement on it in most respects.  I mean, to make one major example, the Battle of the Blackwater is a terrific adaptation...but it's no improvement on the book, and that applies for many character arc as well.  In the book, for instance, the Arya, Jon Snow and Dany storylines are all very much superior.  I was particularly disappointed with how Arya's story sagged and fizzled out this season, propped by good scenes with Tywin that were made too much the focus (as great as their inclusion was, and they should have been included), lacking the punch of the escalation in Harrenhal from the books, while Jon's story in particular suffered from the show making one of its most potentially deep relationships - Jon and Qhorin - completely shallow with the ridiculous, overlong deviation that has Jon separated for nearly half of his arc.  A fairly large change that just did not work on its own merits or as adaptation.

This season has been a good, solid B, but there were a lot of changes and inventions that didn't work for as many that did work, imo.

Jon's story in the show had much less impact than his story in the book, I'll definitely give you that. Particularly everything involving the Halfhand. It was a missed opportunity for drama, and something I should've complained about earlier...

But I'll take Arya shooting the shit with Tywin over her roaming around with Hot Pie and Lommy fucking Greenhands any day of the week. 

Does Hot Pie get killed in the books, by the way? I don't remember. If so, it gives me something to look forward to next season.

I'll make a counterpoint that aside from some very small story and character beats, the series is a marked improvement on the novels.

I'll agree with that completely. If I wasn't loving the show so much, I doubt very much I'd have picked up another book after Feast For Crows. Although I also suspect the show has illuminated hidden depths in the books I breezed past initially, content to read them as summer page turners. If anything, the show has made me interested in revisiting the books, but who knows when that happens.

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Originally Posted by Slim 

 

For instance: Unlike in the book, Osha seduces Theon in order to take the boys out of Winterfell, and doesn't do the obvious thing while she's at it and slit Theon's throat while he sleeps... because the story needs Theon later. 

While I agree with the majority of your post and have some similar feelings, I always felt that Osha wasn't armed when she slept with Theon. Therefore, when she was kissing the solider she took his knife and slit his throat. At that point, I'd be thinking about the bigger picture and just getting out of there instead of running in and killing Theon, as long as we're safe.

My thoughts of the second season is I felt while there were some instances where things were handled a little wonky at times, but overall a great 10 hours of tv. I can't say whether or not I felt it was better than the first season, I feel a full 2 season marathon will allow me to make that decision easier. However, the money pumped into this season and the overall improvement of the look and feel of the season certainly makes more episodes stand out in regards to last year.

I'm with you here buddy, some of my hardcore friends think my overall praise for the show sometimes is unusual. I love the books, don't get me wrong, but the show has just been more than I can imagine. The fact that they've managed to make these characters that I care for so much and make them translatable on the screen is a wonder, even if there are faults that go with it. I really couldn't imagine them pulling off all of this in the 20 hours they've been given and make it not only accessible to us, but to mainstream audiences as well clearly. I'm just grateful that I've managed to see this series turn into a show that I can honestly say is extremely well-made, if I want the book, I'll read the book.

Yeah, I don't think there's much doubt that all-in-all the show's great (well, there's always a few that will disagree, but that's neither here nor there).  It's just that when the less-stellar moments and adaptation choices crop up it sticks out that much more.

House of the Undying?  Disappointing, but the direction they took it did not to my mind detract from the overall show and storyline.  It also wasn't a big surprise, given the show's pretty strict handling of flashbacks and/or "mystical"/"dream" foreshadowing.  Plus they soothed the balm with some additional and unexpected Jason Momoa.

But the Qhorin/Jon bit really left me pretty cold.  We basically got one line of dialogue from Qhorin sort-of explaining what he has planned, to which Jon basically replies "Huh?" and then two episodes later it looks like Jon kills Qhorin in self-defense and has no clue at all that Qhorin planned it the whole time.  I admit it's a bit of fanboyism on my part, as I really like Jon in the books, but the show seems to have tossed out most of the "hey, he's actually a smart kid" in favor of "petulant and impulsive."  As others have posited, though....perhaps the writers have discovered the limits of Kit Hairington's talent and chose to not hang too many dramatic scenes on his shoulders this season.

I did, however, love the combination of shock and awe at Jon killing Halfhand/backhanded respect ("You don't want that one coming back for you") that the Wildlings pulled off after his death.

I'm also acutely aware of certain story problems that have risen up from deviating from the source material, for the most part I don't care.

Tywin and Arya for example is just such a marked improvement on the book(mostly because Charles Dance is so wonderful) and shades the character so well that I couldn't imagine the sequences done with Roose(urghghg) instead. Even if that means that we get an admittedly VERY sloppy justification for why Arya doesn't have Tywin whacked. An honest flaw, one the writers could have spent some time sorting out, but one I can't work too much venom up for.

Jon Snow and Dany's stories this year are a bigger problem, but I felt from the very beginning that the writers should have probably sped those sequences up. Among other things Jon getting entrenched with the Wildlings before the season was over wouldn't have been a bad idea, and saving the House of the Undying all the way until the end of the season feels like a mistake. But I can look past those as well, if only because I don't share the general love for either Jon or Dany whatsoever.

The burning of Winterfell stuff though? That's just a solid mistake, and it's fucking sloppy.

Kit Hairington really feels like the weakest link among the cast at this point.

I still don't understand the Winterfell stuff, maybe we will get flashback next season?

But, they knock out Theon, and do what?  Escape with him?  Give him to the northerners?  Burn Winterfell with him knocked out?

My original reaction was, that they knocked out Theon to give to Bolton's Bastard, but, I doubt they would burn Winterfell before doing that.  I don't think they would allow them to leave after that.

I'm thinking the first part of the season will be of Ramsay Snow accepting Theon as a prisoner, then killing Theons men, then burning Winterfell to the ground.  He will then send a Raven back saying Theon did it.  Only thing that would make sense. 

They probably didn't want to show who burned Winterfell down because they wanted to surprise us when the Boltons betray the Starks.

I think this is a mistake, because if anything this series needs LESS cliffhangers, and not more of them.

Robb told Bolton that any Iron Islander who surrenders would be allowed to return home, except for Theon.  The men at Winterfell have no way of knowing this, but it seems pretty obvious they could trade Theon for their freedom.

I'm still betting that Yara comes to rescue Theon, finds the Boltons in Winterfell, routs them and burns the place.

I don't know, that would require the show to skip backwards in time a bit and I don't know if they want to go that direction.

I'd support this of course because Yara killing fools=hot. But my guess is that we're going to see the aftermath, and reveal the Boltons as being behind it.