"Official" Game Of Thrones Discussion for those who have read the books. - Page 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

Your points seem valid, but how can you really critique a book you haven't bothered to read? How can we take that seriously? If I read the ending to a movie on a website and begin arguing it without seeing it, others can't be expected to take my musings very seriously, can they? 

Take me seriously or not. I read about 300 pages of the book, and I've read the other 4 books multiple times. I'm fairly well acquainted with Martin's style, and the current "brick" approach to epic fantasy. But I'm not trying to sell you something. If you love the book and think it's perfectly paced, OK by me. 

I have to agree with MichaelM to a certain extent. I read the whole book and enjoyed it... but fuckall happens in it. I enjoy Martin's writing style and spending time with most of his characters, so I didn't find it to be too much of a slog, but I completely get how someone else could see it that way.

Truth be told, compared to the first three books the pace of the AFFC and ADWD really slows down. But as long as Martin stays on target to end it in seven, and things begin to move towards that end in the next book, I don't have a problem with how books four and five played out.

Feast always felt like a brand new game. We reached a climax in Swords, and now we reset the board, put the pieces back and start over. It's infuriating because while there was piece-setting in the first two books, there was still forward momentum. Everything had a good reason for being there; Feast and Dragons, while I enjoy, were standing still. Martin wanted to introduce us to even more characters when that's the last thing we really needed. He expanded the world and I liked seeing the Martells and Tyrells, but he got lost in there when he should have been moving the story along. I love Daenerys, but did we really need most of her story in Dragons to be 'god, I'm getting married soon!'. Start it off with her being married so we can get to the dragonriding before page 300. My hope is that the board is set, the pieces are moving and there is some shit coming down our way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Happenin 

Martin wanted to introduce us to even more characters when that's the last thing we really needed. He expanded the world and I liked seeing the Martells and Tyrells, but he got lost in there when he should have been moving the story along. 

This. We're supposed to be more than halfway through the series, with only two books left....and the canvas continues to expand? 

I enjoy Martin's writing, even when the story's standing still...but I simply got fed up when, to quote someone above, it was clear fuckall was really happening in this book. Especially compared to the number of significant events Martin managed to cram into books 1-3.
 

You know what part I actually liked that a lot of people hated and thought was pointless? Quentyn Martell. I actually was giddy WHILE he was dying, for three reasons:

A) It was a nice switch-a-roo, making us think Quentyn would be a player in this game when really he wasn't at all. (Which also kind of mirrors Oberyn and the Martells in general in that they just can't catch a break. Though if the Sand Snakes don't end up doing SOMETHING that contributes to the plot, the Martells will officially become a running joke.)

B) It gave an excuse for the remaining two dragons to be set free at (what I thought) was the worst possible time...though in my opinion Martin kind of ruins this by having time pass and people go "Oh yeah, those dragons? They're hanging out over there, its kind of annoying" rather than having them oh say go on a RAMPAGE and burn EVERYONE. 

C) It quite clearly demonstrates that not just ANYONE can tame a dragon, or even get close to one, which (and this is the MAIN reason I was getting giddy) I thought was to make us REALLY nervous when one of those dragons approaches Tyrion...only for Tyrion to be able to tame it! I mean, Martin really foreshadows Tyrion's love of dragons quite heavily early on in the book, and I was looking forward to say...one of the dragons going after Penny's pig, Penny being stupid enough to try and save it, Tyrion being brave enough to try and protect her, and somehow being able to STOP said dragon. I mean, if Tyrion showed up in front of Dany RIDING one of her dragons, there's no way he won't have her unconditional trust. So really, THIS is what I thought was going to happen, and who knows? It still could! 

Apologies for the rant/speculation. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

Your points seem valid, but how can you really critique a book you haven't bothered to read? How can we take that seriously? If I read the ending to a movie on a website and begin arguing it without seeing it, others can't be expected to take my musings very seriously, can they? 

+1... Yes, it is a bit ridiculous. No, more than that, actually.

If one can make it through AFFC, ADWD should be an easier read. It was for me, at least. Yes, Dany's first chapters (not the latter ones) are a drag. But I then raise you the Martell chapters in AFFC for comparison. Or anything else in AFFC for that matter.

And I state that as someone who has actually read both books cover to cover. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd 

You know what part I actually liked that a lot of people hated and thought was pointless? Quentyn Martell.

I agree! It's actually important that seeming "lead" characters fail and die once in a while, because it ups the stakes. You don't get comfortable assuming that character X is safe because they're a viewpoint character.

Hey, as long as we're speculating about future books, I've got one for you: the pivotal conflict of the final books is going to be not a clash between dragons and ice zombies, but between magic and...non-magic. With Varys waving the banner for non-magic. It's been made very clear that the guy has a grudge against sorcery--cost him his nads, after all--and he's basically the personification of the status quo, which magic would threaten more than any crazy ruler. Then there's the business emerging in the fourth book with the maesters seemingly sounding the alarm about the return of magic--that business with the glass candles. I have no idea how it's going to play out, but it's definitely a more interesting setup than the standard "lets have pure good and pure evil clash on a battlefield" which the series looked like it was steering towards for a while.

Do you think Varys knows (or has any idea) about the Others? That's going to be my favorite part of this whole series, really: seeing the schemers like Littlefinger and Varys react to an entity they have no way of manipulating or controlling. You just KNOW there's a Lady Stoneheart/Littlefinger scene coming up! 

Indeed. Like I say, Varys represents the mundane status quo, magic is presumably something he wants to keep out of Westeros at all costs.

Another thing, people keep saying "Dany's not even in Westeros yet! We've only got two books to go, and the pieces are still moving into position!" But the really epic dragons-vs-zombies clash isn't particularly complicated, and really, that shit could go down pretty fast when it happens. Martin could literally start the next book with the Wall falling and the Others swarming into civilization if he wanted--it would be a little abrupt, but all the elements are in place. Likewise, Dany arriving in Westeros is mostly a matter of her deciding to do so. It sounds like she's going to head over to Asshai soon to learn some kind of crucial information about dragons, then...possibly keep going east, circle around the world and land on Westeros's western shore? I suspect that's the meaning of that cryptic message...what was it, something like, "to go forward, you must go back"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

Indeed. Like I say, Varys represents the mundane status quo, magic is presumably something he wants to keep out of Westeros at all costs.

 

Another thing, people keep saying "Dany's not even in Westeros yet! We've only got two books to go, and the pieces are still moving into position!" But the really epic dragons-vs-zombies clash isn't particularly complicated, and really, that shit could go down pretty fast when it happens. Martin could literally start the next book with the Wall falling and the Others swarming into civilization if he wanted--it would be a little abrupt, but all the elements are in place. Likewise, Dany arriving in Westeros is mostly a matter of her deciding to do so. It sounds like she's going to head over to Asshai soon to learn some kind of crucial information about dragons, then...possibly keep going east, circle around the world and land on Westeros's western shore? I suspect that's the meaning of that cryptic message...what was it, something like, "to go forward, you must go back"?

I'm not sure Varys is so vehemently anti-magic as you assume. He is afterall a Targaryen loyalist (as his actions indicate), and getting the Targaryens and their dragons back in the rule won't diminish magic. There could of course be ulterior motives that he and Illyrio is playing at ("plots with plots" to quote Dune), but we'll simply have to wait and see.

Also, it is quite fascinating that so many still expect this series to end in a "dragons vs ice-zombies" battle. GRRM loves to confound expectations, and I would not be surprised to see a something different.

The same can be said for all those who expect to see some sort of pat ending with a happy Dany & Jon ruling Westeros together. :-)  Could it happen? Possibly, but it won't be nearly that neat or happy if it does. I'm betting we will not see anything like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyperspace 


If one can make it through AFFC, ADWD should be an easier read. It was for me, at least. Yes, Dany's first chapters (not the latter ones) are a drag. But I then raise you the Martell chapters in AFFC for comparison. Or anything else in AFFC for that matter.

 

And I state that as someone who has actually read both books cover to cover. 

 

Totally disagree.  I reread the series when ADWD came out and found AFFC to be surprisingly good on the second read; then I read ADWD.  ADWD was a horrible bore - it was like taking the weakest parts of AFFC and quadrupling them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirjonsnow 

 

Totally disagree.  I reread the series when ADWD came out and found AFFC to be surprisingly good on the second read; then I read ADWD.  ADWD was a horrible bore - it was like taking the weakest parts of AFFC and quadrupling them.

Well, tastes do differ. But perhaps ADWD will improve on a 2nd reading as well. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyperspace 

 

 

I'm not sure Varys is so vehemently anti-magic as you assume. He is afterall a Targaryen loyalist (as his actions indicate), and getting the Targaryens and their dragons back in the rule won't diminish magic.

He's pro-Targaryen, maybe, but it's unlikely that he understands the connection between dragons and magic. I don't think anyone does--it's only implied to us, the audience, because we can see the whole picture. To him, a dragon is just a big fire-breathing monster that wins wars.

As much as the Red Wedding was a huge, series-defining event, I do think the removal of the Starks, almost entirely, is somewhat to blame for the rudderless nature of the last two books. Without Robb, I kind of don't care who ends up in charge, ultimately, and seeing relatively empty characters like Victarion Greyjoy or the Sand Snakes filling up that void isn't near as satisfying or propulsive as the Stark V Lannister conflict.

Maybe it's because I've made my peace with the current state of the thing, but I preferred Dragons to Feast by a lot, mostly just because I enjoyed individual plotlines in a vacuum rather than as a part of the whole. Tyrion's didn't amount to much of anything, but it was a good read on its own. But still, I'd really like some forward momentum, which I'm not convinced Martin cares about anymore.

Well, remember, there was originally going to be a five-year gap after the third book, moving things forward to the next big series of events.  Except Martin realized he couldn't get readers up to speed on what had happened in that time without lengthy exposition dumps.  So instead, he wrote ... well, two whole books' worth of exposition, really.  Feast and Dragons -- while I enjoyed reading them for the most part -- really feel like table setters, putting pieces in place for the story Martin really wants to get to.  And to be honest, there's not much here that I would have missed had he simply skipped ahead as originally planned.

I think it would be hilarious if the next book opens a thousand years in the future where the Targaryen descendants rule over a Pern-esque advanced society with space faring dragons. Good ol George going 'eh, fuck you guys'. I'd read it. Twice, probably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Dickson 

Well, remember, there was originally going to be a five-year gap after the third book, moving things forward to the next big series of events.  Except Martin realized he couldn't get readers up to speed on what had happened in that time without lengthy exposition dumps.  So instead, he wrote ... well, two whole books' worth of exposition, really.  Feast and Dragons -- while I enjoyed reading them for the most part -- really feel like table setters, putting pieces in place for the story Martin really wants to get to.  And to be honest, there's not much here that I would have missed had he simply skipped ahead as originally planned.

This. So much this. Only because I feel like, had we jumped forward five years, Arya would be a top notch assassin, Sansa would be an expert manipulator (she is under Littlefinger's tutelage after all), Samwell would've been a Maester, Brann would've been an expert green-seer etc. etc. etc...

Also, at this point, is anyone under any doubt that "the dragon having three heads" is referring to Dany, Jon and Tyrion? I mean I'm sure Martin wants to throw us a curveball, but the three of them together just makes so much SENSE. Each has something the other desperately needs, and together, the three of them would make a perfect ruler, in my opinion. The reason I get so frustrated with DWD is because I really, REALLY wanted Dany and Tyrion to meet. Dany's great at conquering, but ruling? Hopelessly lost. Tyrion as her advisor/hand would have solved a BUNCH of the problems she was having in that book. 

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/02/the-first-publicity-photos-from-season-two/

Bang up job with Brienne. That's almost exactly how I pictured her, though I always had her hair a bit longer. Great makeup work from the team and good posturing from Gwendoline.

I'm looking forward to a lot of rampant Carice Van Houten nudity.  

Great shots... I think the Brienne and Theon ones are my favorite.

As far as Melisandre - I think she will be great, but I'm oddly disappointed in what I have seen so far. But these publicity shots are not necessarily exactly what we will end up seeing, since they seem to have faded the colors more then what will be seen in actual episodes. I hope to see more of her in future trailers and publicity shots.

Would Eva Green have been a better choice for Melisandre?

It's a silly thing to argue without even seeing the performance.

A new behind the scenes video is out... "Iceland" (also shows us the first view of Qhorin Halfhand)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KONYVXbFiR4&feature=player_embedded

Apparently a few days back, one of the major people involved in the production was quoted as saying that the battle of Blackwater would be "16 minutes long". Like a lot of people I've been a little nervous given the complete lack of battles in S1, but I understand that this is a TV show and can't do Lord of the Rings every season. A 16 minute battle sounded fine to me.

Except in a recent Winter is Coming update featuring some highlights from a UK report on S2, apparently the guy was misquoted and it's actually 60 minutes. And this is apparently being referred to as "the season of battles".

If true, holy shit. Sounds like they're planning to make up for lost time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

Apparently a few days back, one of the major people involved in the production was quoted as saying that the battle of Blackwater would be "16 minutes long". Like a lot of people I've been a little nervous given the complete lack of battles in S1, but I understand that this is a TV show and can't do Lord of the Rings every season. A 16 minute battle sounded fine to me.

 

Except in a recent Winter is Coming update featuring some highlights from a UK report on S2, apparently the guy was misquoted and it's actually 60 minutes. And this is apparently being referred to as "the season of battles".

 

If true, holy shit. Sounds like they're planning to make up for lost time.

If the whole episode is the Battle of Blackwater then that is absolutely great. I'm on the last episode of Rome right now and it's a tad frustrating that they manage to skip over every single battle.

Blackwater's huge from a narrative perspective--it's not just something you could leave offscreen the way they did with the Battle of Whispering Wood. "There was a battle, moving on." All kinds of major plot points are raised and resolved in the course of that battle, plus of course it's Tyrion's finest moment. And of course this is the episode written by Martin himself, who apparently has a reputation for writing stuff that breaks the budget. Whatever happens, though, it's pretty obvious from reports that they put a lot of work into the battle, so we're definitely going to see some shit go down on screen.

I think D&D are quoted as saying that the lack of battles in S1 were more about being short on time than about running out of money. S2 of a show is traditionally where the crew settles in and starts performing like a well-oiled machine, which is why a lot of shows see a big jump in production value for their second season, and from everything we've seen this appears to be true of GoT as well.

I'm just hoping the House of the Undying is rendered well and isn't short-changed, and that we get at least a bit of the battle on the Fist of the First Men--I realize it properly belongs to ASoS, but with the POV aspect gone it makes far more sense to move it to the finale of this season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

 

I'm just hoping the House of the Undying is rendered well and isn't short-changed, and that we get at least a bit of the battle on the Fist of the First Men--I realize it properly belongs to ASoS, but with the POV aspect gone it makes far more sense to move it to the finale of this season.

I don't know, I can see them pulling the old "Sam and Co. react to the horn being blown, cut away, have Jon discover what remains of the battle and have the audience think Sam is dead for a few episodes"....trick. You know, that old chestnut. 

The House of the Undying, though, NEEDS to be in there. Otherwise Dany's season two story has no climax. The tricky part, of course, would be the glimpses of the future/past. Would they make the king with the wolf head TOO obvious? Plus I REALLY want to see that floating heart get roasted by Drogon. Don't know why. Don't judge me. 

They better not cut the Fist entirely. That could actually cause people to tune out. After all, "ice zombies" were this show's original hook, and they're a little on the scarce side in the second book. Cutting out the biggest sequence involving the White Walkers in the entire series would just be a huge ripoff.

Now, I can see them doing something like ending the season with an army of White Walkers pouring out of the trees. But they'd better fucking SHOW them, dammit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd 

Quote:

I don't know, I can see them pulling the old "Sam and Co. react to the horn being blown, cut away, have Jon discover what remains of the battle and have the audience think Sam is dead for a few episodes"....trick. You know, that old chestnut. 

 

 

 

yeah, the could cut it entirely, leaving you to think Sam is dead until Bran et al come across them, then you have a monstrous flashback.

But dammit, I want to see undead horses trailing their frozen entrails.  

It HAS to be there somewhere, for the obsidian aspect if nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

They better not cut the Fist entirely. That could actually cause people to tune out. After all, "ice zombies" were this show's original hook, and they're a little on the scarce side in the second book. Cutting out the biggest sequence involving the White Walkers in the entire series would just be a huge ripoff.

Are the ice zombies the big hook of this show? Not disagreeing, just wondering. Most people I talk to about it hardly mention them, though I have run across one or two who demand that they turn up. Generally though, I think its the characters and plots and intrigue that is bringing people in. Conversely, I've also talked to people who HATED the dragon reveal and think the ice zombies are "dumb."

It'll be interesting to see the general audience reaction once this show gets more and more fantastical. Shadow babies, anyone? 

I've only spoken to a few people, but they were fantasy fans, and they were really psyched about more ice zombies in future seasons. And giant spiders. Of course there's plenty of other stuff keeping them interested, but at least one of them told me around episode 6 that he hoped he didn't have to wait too long for more zombie action.

Arya growing up and stabbing people, pretty much the entire hook for me.

Kernel, people can see your post from outside of the thread.

A new trailer for season 2, the longest yet (at 1:50), is available exclusively through HBOGO. (hbogo.com if you have access) It is great.

Until it is available for all, screencaps are being posted here: http://wicnet.tumblr.com/

Exciting things to spot for book readers, quick views of:

 - The comet!

 - Robb/Jeyne

 - Dany & Drogon

 - Mention of the "5 kings"

 - Stannis confronting Renly

 - Melisandre giving birth :-)

Is it weird that even though I've read all the books I'm avoiding any previews for the next season like the plague?  I want to be amazed to see it when it happens I guess, even if I know it's coming

better quality

OOh.... Oohh!

I need a towel.

I'm not opposed to using pop songs in a trailer for GoT, but that just felt...wrong.

Otherwise, yes, geez, the visuals for this season are shaping up to be incredible.

better quality

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd 

That line from Tyrion to Cersei!

Was that in the book?  Awesome line and delivery.  Sort of makes me wonder if, you know, that thing that happens later -- that big thing Tyrion takes credit for without actually doing -- will actually be by his doing on the show.

Yes. It's from the 2nd book Clash of Kings.

By the way, i got the paperback version of A Dance With Dragons and re-reading it now. Enjoying it and i appreciate the way Martin describes new lands and cities.

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/hbo-to-air-22-min-thrones-feature-looking-back-at-s1-and-previewing-s2/

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

Was that in the book?  Awesome line and delivery.  Sort of makes me wonder if, you know, that thing that happens later -- that big thing Tyrion takes credit for without actually doing -- will actually be by his doing on the show.

By the looks of things, I think we're going to actually SEE Littlefinger and Margaery Tyrell plot to do that thing. From what I can see, anyway. 

Jesus, they are not fucking around with the bonus features on this Blu Ray release. I've been watching the histories all afternoon, extremely beautiful stuff. Love the animation and the rich backstory. Reading all about Rhaegar and the Starks and the First Men in the books, while trying to keep up with the present story can be a little difficult, but watching it unfold on screen is a much more pleasant experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

Was that in the book?  Awesome line and delivery.  Sort of makes me wonder if, you know, that thing that happens later -- that big thing Tyrion takes credit for without actually doing -- will actually be by his doing on the show.

Oh, I hope not. I've had no issue with any of the changes that have been made so far, but the whole reveal of how that event went down was one of my favorite chapters in the series.